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Reply 20 of 35, by jxalex

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just a quick note, while answering later for the rest...

95DosBox wrote:

Well I still got a hoard of mint condition XT motherboards ......and I'm sure at one point in time it was considered junk but I find it better to preserve these when possible.

You're in right place with this talk I think.
Some people here are not concerned about PCI soundcards, but make 8-bit ISA bus expansion card remakes (IDE-CF, USB controllers and soundcards). To them it is great about finding 386/486 CPUs, but oh boy THIS now really makes their day when they find a rosty XT from a garbage or get the faulty 5.25" drive repaired or get the 286 alive. 😉

About electronics engineering.. I encourage everyone to learn that. well, this is the latest trend, everyone should do that? (atleast here) Why not, it is so relaxing. Atleast with something, or begin with the minimal, but constantly learning. The ISA bus some experiments are quite enough advanced still to begin with as first project, but there are many other things related to LPT port. and after I learned the first expansion card remake, then 386 motherboards become precious to me, again.

Current project: DOS ISA soundcard with 24bit/96Khz digital I/O, SB16 compatible switchable.
newly made SB-clone ...with 24bit and AES/EBU... join in development!

Reply 21 of 35, by 95DosBox

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dr_st wrote:

Or any modern version of Windows, if one doesn't like Linux. Windows-to-Go is supported since Win8.1. Granted that limits the choices of flash drive a bit, but gives a consistent experience.

Now of all the worst Windows OSes to mention there is some sliver of hope in your answer. A WTG would be an interesting approach if all you were going for was a DOSBOX type setup removing the real DOS interface but I'm sure this method has some caveats:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_To_Go
Differences from standard installation

Windows To Go has several significant differences compared to a standard installation of Windows 8 on a non-removable storage (such as hard disk drives or solid-state drives).

Drive removal detection
As a safety measure designed to prevent data loss, Windows pauses the entire system if the USB drive is removed, and resumes operation immediately when the drive is inserted within 60 seconds of removal. If the drive is not inserted in that time-frame, the computer shuts down to prevent possible confidential or sensitive information being displayed on the screen or stored in RAM.[11] It is also possible to encrypt a Windows To Go drive using BitLocker.[12]

I suppose Windows doesn't like removing the USB drive after copying all the files to a Ramdrive if that were possible on this version.

Now the method I had used allowed booting to DOS and transferring Windows 3.1 to the Ramdrive and then running it off the Ramdrive. The USB drive could be removed leaving the Windows 3.1 system still intact. All other DOS files could be stored onto the 2GB Ramdrive and accessed from within Windows 3.1 without problems.

dr_st wrote:

Heck, you don't even need any bootable crap. Pop a flash drive with DOSBOX into any modern system, and every DOS game will work (possibly after some minor fiddling with DOSBOX.CONF).

This would only be possible on an open accessed system with Windows installed for this to work. I'm not sure if say you were at Best Buy could this type of approach work if it was password locked.

I already used this method when testing DOSBOX setups on a newly installed OS I have open access to. Not that all people will allow free access to their system or might be USB locked or Password Locked which would prevent access. It might be possible to reboot the system with a Power Off and the USB drive might be bootable by default.

dr_st wrote:

I mistyped. I meant to type "Windows 3.1". That was a hyperbole. The one not making sense here is you. Your idea is lunacy. It's pretty high up in the charts of crazy ideas trying to solve imaginary problems that I've seen on these forums, and that's saying a lot.

"Every piece of code" is not far from truth, because you don't understand how much code is actually written to support modern OSes on modern hardware and programs such as DOSBox on top of modern OSes.

Obviously I understand how much code is necessary but that didn't stop them from attempting the impossible then. You could run the same DOSBOX code for 2K and 9X and as long as the OS worked on modern hardware it was irrelevant to DOSBOX if you ran it on a P4 or a Z390.

I also do a lot of code shaving as I parsed down bloated nVidia drivers to its bare minimum from the hundreds of megabytes it would have consumed. I even parsed down DOSBOX to its bare minimum files for use in a portable format without installation. This is why I was going for a streamlined approach. DOS doesn't consume much space nor Windows 3.1 as far as bloat. DOSBOX wouldn't be the only useful purpose as you could remain in the Windows 3.1 environment and remove the USB drive without worry. What you don't understand is comparing Windows 8.1 size to say 9X adds more bloat to run than necessary. Why newer isn't always better in all situations. The best scenario would be a DOS based Sound Blaster emulation so I wouldn't need DOSBOX at all but I'm sure it's another crazy idea.

I suppose when the original DOSBOX for NT was proposed it was also ranked by you as "It's pretty high up in the charts of crazy ideas trying to solve imaginary problems that I've seen on these forums, and that's saying a lot." Instead of just buying an old 386 and Sound Blaster ISA sound card back in 2002.

Hyperbole or not it's still an extreme exaggeration that DOSBOX encompasses "Every piece of code" written. Regardless DOSBOX itself is a culmination of a lot of hard work and a complex piece of code but still compact in comparison to other software or even Windows 8.1. Whether you meant to say 3.1 under 3.1 it didn't matter as either still meant the same thing hence the TOS in TOS.

What Operating systems have you installed and how modern is the chipset?

Reply 22 of 35, by jxalex

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95DosBox wrote:

Well to really resurrect ISA you'd need to a billionaire and buy out some top motherboard manufacturers and update say an intel 800 series chipset that supported ISA and find a way that it could communicate to work alongside a PCIe slot motherboard. If they could still make PCI slots motherboards I can't see why 1 or 2 ISA slots still couldn't exist for legacy applications. I've seen Floppy Drive controllers exist on modern motherboards where they shouldn't have so it's possible if you had enough money it could be done and sell these modern motherboards that are specially geared towards retro enthusiasts.

there are such motherboards with ISA bus made, for industrial use, BUT they have no DMA operation (required for Soundblaster). There are some industrial 486 motherboard remakes too, but those have their VGA compatibility problems.
About that I wonder do that how come that they remove ISA bus, but in the BIOS there still exist 1.2MB 5.25" option for a floppy drive or even 360kB!

There arent so much support for a newcomer electronics enthusiasts.
Trouble is that everything is geared towards money and if something is made for "enthusiasts" then these are also designed just like "barbie dolls for men" to get as much money out as possible and much more expensive than it is worth actually, sometimes misleading to think that you really need this and that option too, while there is no need for that. but it never should be some practical use and god forbid if you can do something with that what M$ latest release cant do... 😉 Anything more serious like CPLD programming or the clone cards remaking with showoff, I am not even sure if some corporations will see it as a some threat. SO, in their eyes -- for a more advanced hardware course man must pay , its just free enough until to get the basic interest started. This is evil enough I see if their ideal would be just like the basic wiring course is for free but soldering the chips to PCB arent.
Also must pay to obtain more information to learn about software, again $$$$ to get the documentation, while it SHOULD be free.
If keeping open then it should establish standard. But companies just earn from this documentation info selling and thus for young engineers all this is rather expensive "investment", which perhaps will be suspended if not having money.

Software companies and corporations with their 20 year neverending work and artificial limits,
What these big corporations do is actually criminal against nature -- the waste of valuable human ressource by having in every product that built-in obsolence.
SO, does man remembers "just solve the problem JUST ONE TIME." ? M$ is still developing a basic word package, still now, after 20 years, while it was time to let go it already 1995 when it got overdeveloped with creeping features. They are doing it on and on and selling the same package to people 20 years and taking it back again. All would be okay if there would be possible to buy STILL THE OLD VERSION TOO! ! WHY NOT? Why not if the very old version would be enough? But no no they want to sell the last one so you must get only that latest thing which requires also extra new computer.

Electronics... from one point there will be a total stop for most hobbists becouse then the price for all tools increase dramatically over just having the basic soldering iron and voltage meter, IF not having access to a) lab equipment with all necessary documentation and the time to spend with it or b) getting the friends in computer or cellphone engineering industry this equipment and/or components for free! Otherwise the hamradio operators cant build very sophisticated transceivers as some of the components are never for sale as in other way that atleast zillion items at once.
Why else only these things are available which are braindead simple, but as it gets more advanced then everything costs a lot money, about information and the more advanced tools suddenly are expensive or hard to get, also classified as "if you have this, then you are professional and MUST pay", or they want to deal only with institutions, while I see no reason why not everyone should have GOOD and affordable SMD-rework station, 4-ray oscilloscope, sweep-generator, complete PCB etching lab kit with CNC, who ever has interest in this area. And also, details, standards, information. Surprised I was while reading the "PCI system architecture" when there was written that the PCI specifications are "for sale" and there must be done extra query , but are not freely available.
But at the same time institutions can get free samples (oh yeah, like they could not afford!), but the small individuals and enthusiasts have to said to go to shop where they have to buy with incredible price.
Incredible that there are zillion chinese salesmen in feebay who are selling for now obsolete components and everything is quite good affordable prices. Otherwise shopping locally would be just nothing, or very expensive. In Estonia we had in Tartu 4 electronics shop but just 2 had some obsolete components, and wide coverage of new details. While in Sweden is just 1 and from there are just some nothing-to-do complete components.

There were more of those interested about software when there was not so much around and the machine was still XT or 286 and programmers month salaries were lower than the cost of new computer system. Not everything is "needed", but pressed upon.
What really helps here is that people should have more time to have for yourself and give a thought what they really want, instead of being occupied with all those artificially created "needs" and "trends" and just shut down the 101 TV channels, which occupy them all the time.

By the way... hey, those fathers who are a computer giant company owners, actually forbids the use of smartphones to own children and must read physical books instead - do the school oldfashioned way!! ... 😉 So this is a double morale sign too, that how come that for everyone it is a must be, but not to their own children.

Last edited by jxalex on 2018-11-03, 19:00. Edited 3 times in total.

Current project: DOS ISA soundcard with 24bit/96Khz digital I/O, SB16 compatible switchable.
newly made SB-clone ...with 24bit and AES/EBU... join in development!

Reply 23 of 35, by Dominus

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I also do a lot of code shaving as I parsed down bloated nVidia drivers to its bare minimum from the hundreds of megabytes it would have consumed. I even parsed down DOSBOX to its bare minimum files for use in a portable format without installation. This is why I was going for a streamlined approach.

🤣 - I see you are an experienced coder. Godspeed then! You got it all covered. Have fun

Windows 3.1x guide for DOSBox
60 seconds guide to DOSBox
DOSBox SVN snapshot for macOS (10.4-11.x ppc/intel 32/64bit) notarized for gatekeeper

Reply 24 of 35, by dr_st

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@95DosBox

I must say yours is the hardest case of "not sure if stupid or trolling" I came across lately. Some things you write make one think that you are looking for a reasonable discussion, and then you go and add stupid crap like:

95DosBox wrote:

This would only be possible on an open accessed system with Windows installed for this to work. I'm not sure if say you were at Best Buy could this type of approach work if it was password locked.

I already used this method when testing DOSBOX setups on a newly installed OS I have open access to. Not that all people will allow free access to their system or might be USB locked or Password Locked which would prevent access. It might be possible to reboot the system with a Power Off and the USB drive might be bootable by default.

I didn't realize you were looking for a solution to support "stealth insertion mode" into the PCs of innocent bystanders. 😳 Well, if you do, at least make sure to put a rubber on it.

At first I thought to actually address some of your points that might be addressable for the sake of the the sane members in this thread (honestly, not sure there are any, myself included), but seeing as Dominus already wished you Godspeed, I don't think I can add anything meaningful to his summary. So good luck, and do let us know when you have the "Windows 3.11 with USB Audio Support and Video Drivers For All Modern Chipsets And Dosbox Integrated Into Ram Drive With All The Games In The World Magical USB Stick". I hope it happens in the winter, so I get to stand in line for 12 hours in the cold to test it. 😀

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Reply 25 of 35, by jxalex

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I want to take a word about this "laughing matter"... however that win95dosbox is just a stranger to me.
It may be perhaps a practical joke if the wish is to set a DOS game from USB drive, and it only takes CTRL-ALT-DELETE to make system look normal again?

@dr_st
@Dominus

BUT DO YOU take your words back about "standing in line for 12 hours in the cold", if he really solves this puzzle? People have laughed in the past over many things which they do not realize that it is possible. Just hypothetically. Not even trying to prove that absolute certainity, but just to make you think about situation -- what if You were underestimating?
This laughing over him reminds me something... my 2001 year situation when people said such words even about much simpler things like.
1. someone laughed about that it is not possible to play Divx under the DOS; and many other never-seen DOS programs.
2. colleauge did not believe that I HAVE bicycle with custom modification gears; But those boys were not handymans.
3. buddy did not believed that there are stubbed tyres to my bicycle... But he was unaware about its existence.
Only becouse of their limited imagination, but once they got proof they remained silent or STILL kept saying "unbelievable!".
Also those who ask "okay okay now showoff this!", but once they realized no opportunity to chew me off, then they were just silent. ... how low is that?

Now AGAIN... at 2017 ...
1. someone lecturing about that "dont ever use win98se in the internet", and it cant support more than 512MB, and no USB.
2. some one said "good luck with that" , when about adding digital outputs to some synthesizer modules (I did it for Roland D550 rack),

while on the first point these fellows were just outdated and arrogant, then
about the second thing it was something which just was not official option for synthesizer. To them only possibilities in the world were those which were for sale .
But I created this! A friend recommended to post the picture about this
achievement too - to show them, and put the period of that. But I just felt "WHAT FOR? No need to proove to those a$$holes, becouse all they do is just being silent after this attack failure but they start biting again whenever seeing some weakness."

Propably some people say that for XT it is impossible to have Compact flash or USB support too, or Gravis Ultrasound remake cards with 16MB memory 😉
Now after all THIS I would not underestimate someone who seems out of ordinary enough...😉
Crazy or lunatic, or just nerd or hilarious, what about to give him time. Here are not so many of us.
Nevertheless this place is not just to be rivals with each other in a such
tiny community or to showoff and press others below/outside. There are many many troubles outside this community which do not take our interests into consideration... so lets help each other atleast.

(and yes I am silly too about many many irrational dreams, but I am not sure if they are at all so unreal. After I arrived here then I saw that I am not the only one who lives in this good utopia and loves the most favorite game - DOS and old hardware)...
...so, what about support and education instead of laughing?

Last edited by jxalex on 2018-11-03, 20:21. Edited 1 time in total.

Current project: DOS ISA soundcard with 24bit/96Khz digital I/O, SB16 compatible switchable.
newly made SB-clone ...with 24bit and AES/EBU... join in development!

Reply 26 of 35, by Dominus

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Someone well versed in code and assembly, I'd not laugh at. But someone whose coding skills exist of shaving off files and not even able to use the forum search to find out how to get rid of the Dosbox splash screen, or who insists on going the impossible way instead of the feasible way, I'd always laugh at.

Windows 3.1x guide for DOSBox
60 seconds guide to DOSBox
DOSBox SVN snapshot for macOS (10.4-11.x ppc/intel 32/64bit) notarized for gatekeeper

Reply 27 of 35, by jxalex

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THen I should be laughing about those who cant even play a note to save his own life or solder a cable without fire hazard. But I dont.

However it remains always a "mystery" why there is really needed a several GHz speed CPUs with almost latest Windows versions,
JUST in order to just run the imitation of the 30 year old program imitation, which original one was running on a 8Mhz machine...
this is how nowadays several retro program remakes for windows (without DOSBOX) are done. Unfortunate requirements becouse of "development" OR programmers ridiculous lazyness -- Your choice. 😉

Last edited by jxalex on 2018-11-03, 20:40. Edited 1 time in total.

Current project: DOS ISA soundcard with 24bit/96Khz digital I/O, SB16 compatible switchable.
newly made SB-clone ...with 24bit and AES/EBU... join in development!

Reply 28 of 35, by Dominus

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You misunderstand, I'm not laughing at him because he can't code. I'm laughing at him because he doesn't realize that without these skills his ideas are just delusions of grandeur.

Windows 3.1x guide for DOSBox
60 seconds guide to DOSBox
DOSBox SVN snapshot for macOS (10.4-11.x ppc/intel 32/64bit) notarized for gatekeeper

Reply 29 of 35, by jxalex

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okay, I sign off. 😉
I am not so much advanced . *what if* happens something interesting which is declared as impossible and unfeasible by many many many experienced ones already? Just like back on 1996 people said its impossible to read CD-Rs without Win95 and unreal about video playing under the DOS at 2001. 😀

But lets wait and see. Amazing things happen here sometimes, when it is about the old hardware and platforms.

Current project: DOS ISA soundcard with 24bit/96Khz digital I/O, SB16 compatible switchable.
newly made SB-clone ...with 24bit and AES/EBU... join in development!

Reply 30 of 35, by Dominus

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Odd, I had a CD burner back then which worked nicely on Windows 3.11... oh well...

Windows 3.1x guide for DOSBox
60 seconds guide to DOSBox
DOSBox SVN snapshot for macOS (10.4-11.x ppc/intel 32/64bit) notarized for gatekeeper

Reply 31 of 35, by DosFreak

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I'm not going to respond to every post in this thread so:
Contact the developer of HX DOS and ask about adding audio support. (DOS) I don't think even mpxplay supports anything that new so this is doubtful.
Contact the developer of VBEMP (bearwindows) and ask about the compatibility issue you have with VBEMP. (95)
If you care that much perhaps a donation would be appropriate to these projects.

It is certainly possible to code DOSBox to work in DOS possibly using allegro but it would require alot of work for little gain especially since we have HX DOS. Only slight modifications need to be made to DOSBox to fix some minor issues with HX DOS (see DOSBox-X), I'd like to see those added to DOSBox but I haven't investigated it throughly since the issues are very minor (fullscreen issue, LFN dosbox.conf file (it's still read properly anyway), etc)

Also Qbix and Harekiet could have designed DOSBox to only run on 64bit systems but they wanted DOSBox to run on as many machines as possible (within reason) so it was released for 9x-2k and linux and it's still compatible with those operating systems today. You see projects all the time that peter away and die or lose their focus and concentrate on things that no one really cares about. Official DOSBox is about compatibility (except for ridiculous things like smartphones and tablets.). The official ver of DOSBox is compiled with mingw which still supports these old operating systems and Mingw-w64 does as well. VS2008 can compile working executables for 9x and NT4, the latest VS only for XPSP3. Will DOSBox support these old Operating Systems forever? Forever is a long time but there's really no reason to not support them since nothing is lost by supporting them. No one is going to use DOSBox on Windows 3.x even if it worked (ok mabye 1 person). DOS I can see since there is a possible use case there (incompatible game on host but works in guest), 3.x no. Sure I'd love to see someone try but if they were going to waste their time I'd rather they "waste" it on HX DOS or a DOS port of DOSBox.

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Reply 32 of 35, by leileilol

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it's even hard to make a port of a older game to run on Win3.1. I actually did try porting WinQuake over to JUST Win32s and that had timer issues alone. Going beyond that to true 16-bitness would be way off the table as far as memory allocation is concerned. Hell there's not even a Win3.1 doom port, that's win32s minimum all the way back to 1994. Pasofami on Win3.1 can't ever get the famicom timing right either

I stand by my warped perspective statement. I'm reminded of the "please add 512mb support win3.1 living books require it" and "make voodoo2 work gdi lego creator" demands, as well as that "Multicore gzdoom" guy that wrote more walls of promotional text and fake videos than lines of code (which were 0 lines.)

If you want a capable "Win3.1", install Windows NT 3.51. 32-bit subsystems and proper memory management does wonders.

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Reply 33 of 35, by krcroft

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This is the Dunning–Kruger effect in full display. And before you google it, keep in mind we are all beginners and have "unknown unknowns". I'm a professional engineer and developer - but put me in a room of Cordon Blue chefs, and I would surely be laughed out of the room if they watched me cook hash browns.

Now, if OP had zero development experience but wanted to make a new wizbang web 2.0 site with a smattering of features from twitter, Facebook, and snapchat - well, that's actually feasible to go from zero to something in short order with the pile of frameworks, open source libraries, and cloud hosting hiding all of the tough networking, security, and scalability plumbing.

But we're not in that realm of easy gains; we're in 20-year-old niche-cubed land, where the esoteric challenges that have been listed above by experts (who know what they don't know), require further esoteric and highly specialized skills to even properly contemplate what would really be involved.

Even with years of research detailing a full software spec for each area needing to be solved (interface types, all inputs, all outputs, all functional paths, all side effects, test and verification plans), plus millions of dollars to throw around on these "coding gig" websites, I don't think any appreciable progress would be made in such an endeavor, given the remaining sliver of people with the talent to even make a dent in such areas are going to be the last people to be scrounging for work on code-for-hire websites.

Reply 34 of 35, by dr_st

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jxalex wrote:

BUT DO YOU take your words back about "standing in line for 12 hours in the cold", if he really solves this puzzle?

No, I will really agree to stand for 12 hours in the cold to test that.

jxalex wrote:

...so, what about support and education instead of laughing?

I prefer to support (when I think it's feasible) or educate (when I think it's not), but when after 1-2 attempts when you see someone ignores all explanations and continues driving head-first into a wall, then you can not do much.

jxalex wrote:

However it remains always a "mystery" why there is really needed a several GHz speed CPUs with almost latest Windows versions,
JUST in order to just run the imitation of the 30 year old program imitation, which original one was running on a 8Mhz machine...

That's not true. There is NOT such a need. To run XT/AT games in DOSBox at good speed, you can probably use something as ancient as a Pentium III and any Windows OS that has the necessary library support to run DOSBox (e.g., 9x/2K). Of course it is still much more powerful than the XT/AT itself, but that's reasonable once you understand what emulation is and how it works.

jxalex wrote:

*what if* happens something interesting which is declared as impossible and unfeasible by many many many experienced ones already? Just like back on 1996 people said its impossible to read CD-Rs without Win95 and unreal about video playing under the DOS at 2001.

Well, besides the fact that you are clearly wrong about CD-R as Dominus pointed out (and probably about the video as well), I would say that the important word you said here is "interesting". If something is interesting (that is, there is a meaningful use case), someone will be willing to put in the work even if it's difficult. For example, I can totally see the need to read CD-Rs in DOS, if I want to play my DOS games from burnt backup CDs. However, I don't see the need of running DOSBox on top of Windows 3.x, when I can run DOSBox on top of Windows 7/10 or Linux, and get the same compatibility with games; thus, what's being discussed here is a kludge that's both infeasible and uninteresting.

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Reply 35 of 35, by Dominus

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I think all has been said about it.
I suggest you dive into learning how to code and then into how to prepare DOSBox for running on Windows 3.x. Then how to get sound and video on modern machines.
If you have a good plan that doesn't just involve you needing a programmer, please post a new topic.

Or broaden your view and realize that what you initially laid out to be the goal can be done with linux WITHOUT any need for coding knowledge.

Windows 3.1x guide for DOSBox
60 seconds guide to DOSBox
DOSBox SVN snapshot for macOS (10.4-11.x ppc/intel 32/64bit) notarized for gatekeeper