VOGONS


Reply 40 of 91, by gdjacobs

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Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-01-12, 20:18:

BUT, if there's other reasons why you don't like SSD's, I can pickup the SYBA SD-SATA150R for $15. I already have a modern SATA Hitachi 640gb 7200RPM HDD I can use (also have a 2.5" Sandisk 240gb SSD I could use...). I can format these into ~120gb partitions, and even have one with straight-up DOS (what is it 6.2.2 that was the latest?) on it for those intensive DOS games like Quake.

Hitachi and IBM drives can also be LBA limited using Hitachi's disk utility.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 41 of 91, by dionb

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Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-01-12, 20:18:

I decided to go with the ESS ES1868F for my DOS ISA sound card right now. With having to buy a new power supply some other things I just don't want to drop the money on the other + dreamblaster (yet at least).

Perfectly good choice. You've seen the rabbit hole, if you ever feel like it, you can jump down. For now this is a compatible, bug-free solution that will at least give you decent sound.

[...] My buddy found me this ATX/Dell adapter cable I'll pick that up instead of changing everything around myself. […]
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[...]
My buddy found me this ATX/Dell adapter cable I'll pick that up instead of changing everything around myself.

(see edit below)
I've been looking up power supplies for the last ~hour and it seems like the highest 5v is 20 amps 120w. Is that enough? EVGA 500 Watt for $40.

Will this work with the above Delll ATX adapter? Do new power supplies have ALL the same wiring hookups my old Dell Dimension XPS T700r computer will need? I will be running a HDD, CD-ROM, 5.25" floppy, 3.5" floppy, Zip 100 Drive (which honestly I probably won't even hook up). The Dell hasn't even shipped yet so I need to rely on you guys telling me if I'll need any adapters and such.

Oh, and the screw holes will line-up in that Dell case, right? And it'll physically fit in the case? My frankensteined P3 800mhz has it like angled 45º with only 2 screws holding it in so just wanted to make sure...

**EDIT** My buddy found this dell-correct Startech 300w power supply which does the same 20 amps on the 5v as the EVGA above. We're trying to add up the total wattage to see if this will be enough. What do you think? ...I'm just a bit worried that it's still probably going to be a LOT older (by prob 15 years if it's old stock I assume).

Can't comment on the adapter, but if the pinout corresponds, it should be OK.

What's the rating of the current PSU on the 5V line? No point in going to great lengths to basically just replicate what you already have... the Startech PSU is new and probably not old stock either, they specialize in replicating obsolete hardware for this kind of purpose. You could ask the seller to be sure...

Given that the Gf4Ti4600 doesn't have an aux power in, it can draw max 48W from AGP (2/3 from 3.3V line, 1/3 from 5V line), the P3-1000 draws about 30W from 5V. Assume about 50% overhead and powering PCI devices, that puts you at 115W for 3.3V + 5V combined. That should work on both the EVGA and the Startech PSU, but it might already work on the original Dell PSU you already have. Max efficiency though is attained around 80% utilization, for that you would want a PSU that offers about 145W on 3.3V+5V.

By comparison I just dug up my AOpen-branded FSP300-60BT(12V). "Only" 300W, but 30A on 5V and 28A on 3.3V individually, and 180W on 3.3V + 5V combined. The PSU also weighs a ton, always a good sign (in absence of any other info, heavier PSUs tend to be better, regardless of proclaimed specs - unless the weight comes from cement, not electronic components, and yes, that is a thing with really shady dealers). Note however that you don't need this much power, a PSU like this was aimed at later AMD AthlonXP (or MP) designs that could draw up to 80W each and still needed to get that from the 5V line.

So you all REALLY don't like solid states for Windows 98 SE, right? Is it because they don't have the build-in mechanism which doesn't write over and over again to the same sectors which will make the solid state (SD card or SSD HDD) break in short order? Just a reminder that this Dell has that SD card reader already in it, and I already have a Sandisk class 10 128gb micro SD card I could put in it... I really don't care if it dies in like a year...

I very much do like solid state drives for Win98SE. I'd recommend SLC drives like the Intel X25E as they hardly suffer from the lack of TRIM support in old OSs.

Whay I don't like is SD - as it's not a native protocol, it add conversion overhead and is far slower than something closer to what a PC would understand.

BUT, if there's other reasons why you don't like SSD's, I can pickup the SYBA SD-SATA150R for $15. I already have a modern SATA Hitachi 640gb 7200RPM HDD I can use (also have a 2.5" Sandisk 240gb SSD I could use...). I can format these into ~120gb partitions, and even have one with straight-up DOS (what is it 6.2.2 that was the latest?) on it for those intensive DOS games like Quake.

Be careful with these Silicon Image controllers:

- they frequently require PCI 2.2. The i440BX chipset in your system only offers PCI 2.1
- Win9x support even in systems with correct PCI is patchy.

Instead look for Highpoint or - better - Promise controllers. The TX2Plus is the best Win98SE SATA solution (and gives you a fast PATA port too).

The last standalone DOS was 6.22. It support FAT12 and 16 only, so no partitions over 2GB. My experience is it doesn't work correctly with larger disks, even if you keep the partitions small. And with "larger" I mean a 4GB CF card, not some 640GB monster. Once again, for DOS you make life much, much simpler if you have a drive that physically isn't bigger than 2GB. I really like 1GB CF cards.

You can extract the DOS 7.x supplied with Win95/98/ME, which does support FAT32, but things get complicated with stuff not working (Creative sound card PnP utils) or working oddly (long file name support). Again, this is an option, but life is much simpler if you stick to MS-DOS 6.22, which just works with all DOS hardware and software. On a max 1GB HDD or CF card.

FAT32 can handle up to 2TB drives, but you need 3rd party tools to format FAT32 over 32GB, and things get very inefficient. Moreover, max file size is 4GB-1B, which means that things like ISOs tend not to fit. FAT32 really isn't designed to handle big drives and big files. That's another reason to keep storage in the network and just use a somewhat period-correct drive size locally for installed software (consider that 20GB was a HUGE drive when Win98SE was launched and when regular support ended in 2002 the 137GB barrier had only just been broken). There's a reason MS was trying to move people to NTFS since the mid 1990s...

Reply 42 of 91, by Dochartaigh

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dionb wrote on 2020-01-13, 00:38:

What's the rating of the current PSU on the 5V line? No point in going to great lengths to basically just replicate what you already have... the Startech PSU is new and probably not old stock either, they specialize in replicating obsolete hardware for this kind of purpose. You could ask the seller to be sure...

Given that the Gf4Ti4600 doesn't have an aux power in, it can draw max 48W from AGP (2/3 from 3.3V line, 1/3 from 5V line), the P3-1000 draws about 30W from 5V. Assume about 50% overhead and powering PCI devices, that puts you at 115W for 3.3V + 5V combined. That should work on both the EVGA and the Startech PSU, but it might already work on the original Dell PSU you already have. Max efficiency though is attained around 80% utilization, for that you would want a PSU that offers about 145W on 3.3V+5V.

Here's the specs for the original OEM power supply on the Dell T700R:

URpPaMV.jpg

Here's the Startech Dell compliant one:

fsh235u.jpg

My buddy wrote [with my notes]: "The original PSU was rated for 200w, but could only deliver 140w when loads are combined on the two main outputs [3.3 and 5v]. This [the Startech we're looking at] is rated for 300w, and can deliver 280w of power combined."

He also found a post where a guy in the real world measured his ti4600 and it had a max of 124w draw....which seems WAY over what my system can draw based on what you just said above so I don't know how that works... (prob. because of totally different MB, etc.)

So to try to get even more power output I just searched 700 to 900+ Watt modern power supplies, at up to double what I was looking to spend. Only checked about 30 so far, but they basically all still have the same 20 amps on the 5v line. I did find one with 25 amps, at a good price too (although I've never heard of the brand), and then noticed that EVERY single one I've been looking at now and before has the fan pointing up and these Dell cases need to exhaust out the back....so that brings me back to the Startech Dell compliant one again... That's only $25? I think it's a pretty darn safe bet to just pick it up - what do you think? If it doesn't work then back to the drawing board.

dionb wrote on 2020-01-13, 00:38:
Be careful with these Silicon Image controllers: […]
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Be careful with these Silicon Image controllers:

- they frequently require PCI 2.2. The i440BX chipset in your system only offers PCI 2.1
- Win9x support even in systems with correct PCI is patchy.

Instead look for Highpoint or - better - Promise controllers. The TX2Plus is the best Win98SE SATA solution (and gives you a fast PATA port too).

Like this one? Works the same as the SD-SATA150R, as in I can just plug in regular modern SATA drives and they'll work? No need to flash the BIOS like you have to do on the SD-SATA150R? If so, that eliminates one thing I was worried about and brings me closer to just going for this option...

Right now I was just going to see how the SD card goes, I have an extra 128gb card....so no loss if it doesn't. They don't make smaller regular NEW optical drives that I can just plug in? On my P3 800mhz build I'm honestly perfectly happy with it's performance on a native-era 20gb drive. Boots up and runs everything snappy honestly - I don't see how the SD could be any worse, right?


And not related to the above but can you really not run more than 1 floppy drive on these Dell's? I wanted 3.5" floppy drive along with 5.25" just for nostalgia's sake. (still looking for a 5.25" on eBay, all the ones under $60 seem to be for parts or unknown working - they're really that expensive?)

Reply 43 of 91, by dionb

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Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-01-13, 02:12:
[...] […]
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[...]

Here's the specs for the original OEM power supply on the Dell T700R:

URpPaMV.jpg

Here's the Startech Dell compliant one:

fsh235u.jpg

My buddy wrote [with my notes]: "The original PSU was rated for 200w, but could only deliver 140w when loads are combined on the two main outputs [3.3 and 5v]. This [the Startech we're looking at] is rated for 300w, and can deliver 280w of power combined."

Not the correct comparison. The 3.3V + 5V + 12V output is higher, but it's the 3.3V + 5V that needs comparing to the original one. The Startech can do max 120W on those two. That's less than the 140W on the original Dell PSU, so this would not be an upgrade but a downgrade.

He also found a post where a guy in the real world measured his ti4600 and it had a max of 124w draw....which seems WAY over what my system can draw based on what you just said above so I don't know how that works... (prob. because of totally different MB, etc.)

I don't see the Ti4600 in that topic, sure the link is correct?

In any event, the total draw is dependent on total max load combined with PSU efficiency, plus it also includes 12V (which you only need for drives and max a W or two for an ISA card, but newer systems use for CPU (and PCIe) as well). I'd need to see his specs to compare, but doubt the relevance.

Based on those Dell specs, you're better off with the Dell than with either of the newer PSUs you mention. To get more on the 5V line you would need an even more ludicrously overspecced new PSU - this is the dilemma why some people (like me) prefer old PSUs designed around a fat 5V line.

So to try to get even more power output I just searched 700 to 900+ Watt modern power supplies, at up to double what I was looking to spend. Only checked about 30 so far, but they basically all still have the same 20 amps on the 5v line. I did find one with 25 amps, at a good price too (although I've never heard of the brand), and then noticed that EVERY single one I've been looking at now and before has the fan pointing up and these Dell cases need to exhaust out the back....so that brings me back to the Startech Dell compliant one again... That's only $25? I think it's a pretty darn safe bet to just pick it up - what do you think? If it doesn't work then back to the drawing board.

The thing is that almost nothing uses 5V on modern systems, so modern PSUs deliver almost all power on 12V. But don't bother with the Startech, as I said it would be a downgrade for the 5V capabilities of your system vs the Dell.

[...]

Like this one? Works the same as the SD-SATA150R, as in I can just plug in regular modern SATA drives and they'll work? No need to flash the BIOS like you have to do on the SD-SATA150R? If so, that eliminates one thing I was worried about and brings me closer to just going for this option...

Not quite... I forgot to emphasise you need the SATA150 TX2Plus for Win98 support. The 300 requires at least Windows 2000, there are no 9x drivers. But yes, almost that card. I have one and never needed to flash the BIOS on it.

Note that this will remove BIOS HDD size limitation but not OS/filesystem limitations, so anything >2GB is too big for DOS and >32GB starts to be a pain with Win9x.

Right now I was just going to see how the SD card goes, I have an extra 128gb card....so no loss if it doesn't. They don't make smaller regular NEW optical drives that I can just plug in? On my P3 800mhz build I'm honestly perfectly happy with it's performance on a native-era 20gb drive. Boots up and runs everything snappy honestly - I don't see how the SD could be any worse, right?

Optical drives? I think you're getting confused here. Optical drives are things like CD-Rom drives, DVD-drives etc. Do you mean mechanical hard drives? In which case yes, that 20GB drive is spot-on, at least for Windows 98, not for DOS.

And not related to the above but can you really not run more than 1 floppy drive on these Dell's? I wanted 3.5" floppy drive along with 5.25" just for nostalgia's sake. (still looking for a 5.25" on eBay, all the ones under $60 seem to be for parts or unknown working - they're really that expensive?)

I'd expect so, but you'd have to check the BIOS. Most P3-era boards still supported dual drives, but here again brand names do things differently.

And drives aren't necessarily that expensive, eBay sellers are. Once again, take a look at amibay.com and vcfed.org for more community-oriented pricing.

Reply 44 of 91, by chinny22

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Not to disagree with dionb, the dell PSU's were good quality but would go with the adapter. That way you are not restricted in choice of PSU and can get anything you want.
I've got a similar spec XPS T500 upgraded to 1Ghz and Ti4600, Voodoo 3, Audigy 2 ZS, AWE64, HDD, CD drive and using a modern Coarsair PSU just fine.

Old PSU's are better suited for sure, but they get out of spec as they get older and I don't have the skill/time to replace caps or whatever to ensure they are kept in check.

Reply 45 of 91, by Dochartaigh

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chinny22 wrote on 2020-01-14, 12:00:

Not to disagree with dionb, the dell PSU's were good quality but would go with the adapter. That way you are not restricted in choice of PSU and can get anything you want.
I've got a similar spec XPS T500 upgraded to 1Ghz and Ti4600, Voodoo 3, Audigy 2 ZS, AWE64, HDD, CD drive and using a modern Coarsair PSU just fine.

Problem is also the fan placement. I spend HOURS researching modern power supplies (which I very well could have been searching for the wrong things 😉 but I don't think I saw a single NEW one with the fan exhausting out the back on NewEgg or Amazon. Also went up to like 900w or something crazy like that and largest 5v was 24a I believe, and people are saying that the 200w stock Dell would STILL have more on the 5v rail than one of those! So you are def right, I could be perfectly fine...but I kinda want to future proof this too, you know? I've always found that getting the best (within reason), or going overkill on certain parts usually makes them last longer and is better for the long haul.

Also, how are you fitting a Voodoo 3 in there with the Ti4600? I thought they were both AGP cards and there's only 1 AGP slot? (still learning so please excuse if wrong).

Can your Dell T500 (is it "r" model?) have two floppy drives working at once? Your build sounds very cool. What are you using for the Hard Drive? Hope mine will measure up once it's done!

If you wouldn't mind I have some power supply options below if you could take a look since you have such a similar setup...


dionb wrote on 2020-01-13, 12:02:

I don't see the Ti4600 in that topic, sure the link is correct?

In any event, the total draw is dependent on total max load combined with PSU efficiency, plus it also includes 12V (which you only need for drives and max a W or two for an ISA card, but newer systems use for CPU (and PCIe) as well). I'd need to see his specs to compare, but doubt the relevance.

Based on those Dell specs, you're better off with the Dell than with either of the newer PSUs you mention. To get more on the 5V line you would need an even more ludicrously overspecced new PSU - this is the dilemma why some people (like me) prefer old PSUs designed around a fat 5V line.

Sure, here it is from that page, 87 at idle, 124 watts at load:

rLCirCD.jpg


I did a little more research this morning. I searched for Fortron (struck out), Enlight, and Antec (although they 'became notorious for capacitor failure' dion said) which Dion suggested. I found (I was ONLY searching for new units in USA fyi):

Top contender:

Enlight, 450w (total), 40A 5v (220w)
**EDIT** Crap, just saw this has a fan on the top as well (one out the back still too). Is this a dealbreaker? There's like nearly no clearance above the ATX power supply in the Dell case - at least what I can tell from the pics.

Runner-up:

Enlight (although power sticker says Antec??? are they same company?), 360 watt (total), 33A 5v (180w).
**EDIT**, crap, I cross-referenced this and the listing on NewEgg (discontinued) said it has two fans....so probably one on the top too which I don't see pictured in the eBay listing?

Then if Antec is still in the running even though they had capacitor issues at some point, these are the best Antec's I found:

Antec 500 watt (total, 35A 5v (180w total)

Antec 300w (total), 30A 5v (220w total)

Somebody PLEASE tell me one of these will work!!!!! Hopefully the 450w Enlight and I'll buy it right now. Fan goes out the back too 9see my edit above, has a fan on top too...), and I assume ALL the ATX power supplies have the same footprint so it'll work in the Dell Inspiron XPS T700r case and the screw holes will line-up and everything. I know I'll need that Dell ATX adapter cable I mentioned before. That will have all the connectors I need to, right? since it's older I shouldn't need any adapters for anything?

Reply 46 of 91, by gdjacobs

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Add FSP, SPI, Acbel, and Delta to your list. Emacs/Zippy and Etasis are excellent as well, but they're usually server supplies and can be noisy. Flextronics and Murata are excellent but usually do contract work or specialty supplies. They tend to be harder to find in a search.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 47 of 91, by chinny22

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Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-01-14, 15:02:
Problem is also the fan placement. I spend HOURS researching modern power supplies (which I very well could have been searching […]
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Problem is also the fan placement. I spend HOURS researching modern power supplies (which I very well could have been searching for the wrong things 😉 but I don't think I saw a single NEW one with the fan exhausting out the back on NewEgg or Amazon. Also went up to like 900w or something crazy like that and largest 5v was 24a I believe, and people are saying that the 200w stock Dell would STILL have more on the 5v rail than one of those! So you are def right, I could be perfectly fine...but I kinda want to future proof this too, you know? I've always found that getting the best (within reason), or going overkill on certain parts usually makes them last longer and is better for the long haul.

Also, how are you fitting a Voodoo 3 in there with the Ti4600? I thought they were both AGP cards and there's only 1 AGP slot? (still learning so please excuse if wrong).

Can your Dell T500 (is it "r" model?) have two floppy drives working at once? Your build sounds very cool. What are you using for the Hard Drive? Hope mine will measure up once it's done!

If you wouldn't mind I have some power supply options below if you could take a look since you have such a similar setup...
adapters for anything?

This was the original post for my Dell, although its from when I was just getting into this hobby myself so had a few changes and few pics are missing
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f= ... 98#p272498

No its not an R, I suspect the main difference will be the motherboard. Mine has part number Rev A00 AA 722394-111 which is still a slot 1 board but has on-board Yamaha sound like you mentioned before.
The motherboard is really a rebadged Intel SE440BX. Another post here just recently found Intel dropped the 2nd floppy support rather then Dell or Gateway who also used the same board. so wouldn't have high hopes for yours as it should be newer.

Voodoo 3 came in both AGP and PCI and I've got the PCI one.
Just using standard IDE hard drives, I managed to get into this just as everyone was throwing out P4's with them so have a small collection.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean when you say PSU's don't exhaust out the back? I only use Coarsair modular supplies now. Not because they are the best or anything, just means I can use unused molex connectors from a modern build on a retro PC and the left over sata power from an older build on newer builds. I also believe in overkill gives you a bit of a safety net based on 0 research mind.

If your talking about the 2nd fan mounted on the top/bottom of the PSU at least with the Coarsair range that only spins up when needed and have never noticed that happening even on more power hungry rigs. just as well as I have a very small gap between the PSU and the "roof" so the air doesn't really have anywhere to escape if it did spin up one day.
If you have a modern PSU or access to one Just slap it in and see how it fits as it'll give you an idea at least.

Reply 48 of 91, by dionb

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Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-01-14, 15:02:
[...] […]
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[...]

dionb wrote on 2020-01-13, 12:02:

I don't see the Ti4600 in that topic, sure the link is correct?

Sure, here it is from that page, 87 at idle, 124 watts at load:

rLCirCD.jpg

Ah, I was looking for text, not at pics...

That system is completely different, much newer, so the total value isn't relevant, but the difference between cards is.

The difference between the Ti4600 and Gf2MX (oldest card there) is 124-91 = 33W. So in any event the GPU can draw at least 33W+power draw of the Gf2MX. According to Anand the Gf4MX draws max 4W, so the Gf4Ti4600 should then draw about 37W. Difficult to say exactly which line it draws most from (I can only find electrical supply specs for AGP3.0 not 1.0...), but. The CPU TDP is 29W, so that's 66W for the two together from 3.3V+5V. Add a 50% margin for other stuff and you get 99W actual max draw. PSU max efficiency is at around 80% load, so you should aim for a PSU with about 124W delivery on 3.3A + 5A together.

That's a good match for the original Dell PSU and less so for the Startech or others. I really wouldn't bother with a different PSU unless there are problems with the original one based on this.

[...] […]
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[...]

I did a little more research this morning. I searched for Fortron (struck out), Enlight, and Antec (although they 'became notorious for capacitor failure' dion said) which Dion suggested. I found (I was ONLY searching for new units in USA fyi):

Top contender:

Enlight, 450w (total), 40A 5v (220w)
**EDIT** Crap, just saw this has a fan on the top as well (one out the back still too). Is this a dealbreaker? There's like nearly no clearance above the ATX power supply in the Dell case - at least what I can tell from the pics.

Take a good look at the pics of the PSU and note where the ATX cables come out. Take another good look at the PSU pic of your system. It's the other side. You need to turn one of these PSUs upside-down, so that fan isn't jammed against the roof, it's pointing down where it can easily draw out hot air. No problem.

What is a problem: this PSU is utterly crazy overkill, the kind you would need for a completely kitted-out dual AthlonMP with AGPPro graphics solution and a ton of fast SCSI disks.

With 40A available on the 5A, and probably no more than 20A actual utilization on that line at absolute peak util, you'll never be stressing this past 50%. Result will be bad efficiency at peak utilization and utterly dismal efficiency at idle. The latter might be so low that it actually shortens PSU life span.

Runner-up:

Enlight (although power sticker says Antec??? are they same company?), 360 watt (total), 33A 5v (180w).
**EDIT**, crap, I cross-referenced this and the listing on NewEgg (discontinued) said it has two fans....so probably one on the top too which I don't see pictured in the eBay listing?

Again, that fan goes on the bottom when actually mounted in your system - non-issue. However this one is also complete overkill.

Antec 500 watt (total, 35A 5v (180w total)

Antec 300w (total), 30A 5v (220w total)

Somebody PLEASE tell me one of these will work!!!!! Hopefully the 450w Enlight and I'll buy it right now. Fan goes out the back too 9see my edit above, has a fan on top too...), and I assume ALL the ATX power supplies have the same footprint so it'll work in the Dell Inspiron XPS T700r case and the screw holes will line-up and everything. I know I'll need that Dell ATX adapter cable I mentioned before. That will have all the connectors I need to, right? since it's older I shouldn't need any adapters for anything?

All these PSUs will work if they're in good nick (just because it's NIB doesn't guarantee anything, if it's a 20-year old PSU the caps could have died while it's in storage too...) and the adapter cable is good, but to be honest, none is as good a match with your actual setup as the original Dell one. I apoligise for setting you off on a wild goose chase based on incorrect assumptions about the 5V capabilities of the original PSU (and perhaps slightly overestimating Ti4600 draw). I now firmly recommend NOT to get a different PSU unless the current one is clearly malfunctioning. If that is the case though, don't worry about those fans... (but also don't go for a PSU over 300W in your case, preferably aim for 250W as I did originally recommend).

Reply 49 of 91, by chinny22

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Just released you and dionb are talking about the original dell one, not the Startech dell compatible.
100% agree, use the original one. No point replacing parts that work fine..... The XPS range was the high end system so the hardware is good quality.
If it dies in the future that's when I'd look to replace it.

Reply 50 of 91, by Dochartaigh

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OK, OK, you guys win. I'll stick with the original power supply until it's proven it isn't enough. At least I know what I need to get next time around. Which Dionb, what would the ideal 5v amps and watts rating be on an ideal proper period upgraded power supply? The stock is 22A/40W?. --- Thank you all for your help with this.


That still leaves me the HDD as the last thing I need for the physical built (before I get into how to format, setup, drivers, audio IRQ's and other stuff that's goin to make my head spin!).

Is it rude if I just ask for a link for what hard driveHDD to get? I'm assuming they still make BRAND NEW ones which I can literally just plug into the stock connectors then be up and running?

Sorry all, I just don't have the time or the willpower this week to do another 10+ hours research on which SATA/etc. card to get to use something fancy. Just a plug-in old-school spinning hard drive is perfect. I was thinking 720rpm? (unless faster is cheap), and was thinking 120gb which I think is just shy of that still plays nicely with Win98se, right? If it's not going to cause issues, I would like to make a separate 8GB partition (just read that's the max size for DOS 6.22) on that HDD just for DOS fun (otherwise, if I need to run any DOS game outside of Windows, I'll just exit from Win98se and play it). I can look into the funny stuff later - just want to order the last part so when everything comes in I can get it up and running to a bare Win98se system at least.

Last edited by Dochartaigh on 2020-01-14, 18:07. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 52 of 91, by Dochartaigh

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kolderman wrote on 2020-01-14, 18:02:

Most Seagate hdds >=500gb can be configured to report only 120gb. That's what I do for win98.

Thank you, but literally just looking for something which I take out of the anti-static bag and plug it in, no special configuration needed (I'm going to have a hard enough time remembering how to install Window correctly, finding drivers, etc.). Problem is the only 120gb HDD's I've found are super expensive, or have bad reviews saying they're repurposing old used ones...

I was going to say I would be fine if there was a more quasi-plug-and-play option I can plug directly into the HDD like this (which I used for my Dreamcast before, think people use them for PS2 HDD mods as well) but I don't think it's that easy. And you guys have me spooked about the more advanced PCI plug-in boards which allow you to use SATA hard drives, but then you have to flash the BIOS of some of them, some of them have the same exact model number but they can't be flashed, or picking out the wrong one because of my bus speed (or whatever that was), then about how some of them have HDD size limitations but then others use their own bios so you can use whatever size hard drive you want....but then you really can't because DOS only likes 8gb and Win98 is something like 127GB....then so ok, you can just partition the larger HDD to be smaller...but then some don't like the larger HDD's even if you partition then to be smaller sizes.... like OMG! Talk about your head wanting to explode! (and I thought power supplies, and audio cards before that were tough to pick out 🤣!

/end rant 😉

Reply 53 of 91, by dionb

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Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-01-14, 17:56:

OK, OK, you guys win. I'll stick with the original power supply until it's proven it isn't enough. At least I know what I need to get next time around. Which Dionb, what would the ideal 5v amps and watts rating be on an ideal proper period upgraded power supply? The stock is 22A/40W?. --- Thank you all for your help with this.

P=U*I, 22A * 5V = 110W, not 40W.

If you need more, I'd sat go for 250W-300W with a 'heavy' 5V line doing 25-30A, and a combined power rating on 3.3V+5V of say 160-180W. So that FSP300 I mentioned would be at the very upper end of what would be sensible for a P3 system of any description. I use it for my P3-1400S, which probably draws about the same as yours (hotter CPU, cooler GPU), but would have used a lighter one if I had it.

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That still leaves me the HDD as the last thing I need for the physical built (before I get into how to format, setup, drivers, audio IRQ's and other stuff that's goin to make my head spin!).

Is it rude if I just ask for a link for what hard driveHDD to get? I'm assuming they still make BRAND NEW ones which I can literally just plug into the stock connectors then be up and running?

Sorry all, I just don't have the time or the willpower this week to do another 10+ hours research on which SATA/etc. card to get to use something fancy. Just a plug-in old-school spinning hard drive is perfect. I was thinking 720rpm? (unless faster is cheap), and was thinking 120gb which I think is just shy of that still plays nicely with Win98se, right? If it's not going to cause issues, I would like to make a separate 8GB partition (just read that's the max size for DOS 6.22) on that HDD just for DOS fun (otherwise, if I need to run any DOS game outside of Windows, I'll just exit from Win98se and play it). I can look into the funny stuff later - just want to order the last part so when everything comes in I can get it up and running to a bare Win98se system at least.

There was a 20GB drive with the system wasn't there? Why not start with that for Win98?

As for DOS, 8GB isn't the max partition size (which is 2GB), it's the max HDD size. Go over that and stuff goes badly wrong (bye bye data if you even manage to write anything). You really need a smaller drive to boot DOS 6.22. That is dead easy: get pretty much any IDE/PATA to CF adapter and a 1GB CF card (order on AliExpress for almost nothing including shipping, or if you're impatient get something more local from eBay or Amazon). Just plug that straight onto a free IDE connector.

Reply 54 of 91, by Dochartaigh

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Since two posts in a row about not using a small 120gb or less mechanical hard drive, I assume it's because these just don't exist anymore? Like companies just don't make and sell new ones of those anymore? The only ones around that 120gb size I found based on reviews are used and old... I've only been checking Amazon and NewEgg so far (some other random ones but seemed shady, like 'generic' drives....or some for like $100 for a 40gb drive 🤣).


dionb wrote on 2020-01-14, 19:19:

There was a 20GB drive with the system wasn't there? Why not start with that for Win98?

I like having backups for all my gaming systems, and that 20gb HDD is in the other (working) P3 system and I would like to keep it as a backup (also good if I brick one system I can make boot discs or whatever on the other system, or read it's HDD to recover data or whatnot). I don't have another hard drive to put in this new system - smallest I have on hand which is IDE is over the 127gb limit (and see the above about problems finding ~120gb IDE drives).

There is a 2gb SD card in the new system right now - too small for Win98se and my games to fit, and seems like people don't like SD cards so that's out. I think any micro SD cards (with SD adapter) I have will be 128 or 256gb - might have a random 32 or 64gb hidden somewhere...can always buy one, but again, everybody seems to hate them.

So...if we're back to the other options, knowing that all the IDE to SATA controllers confuse me, it seems like the CompactFlash is what you really, really, like? Larger media for those seems to be a little expensive ($39 for 64gb isn't bad, $65 for 128gb - which is too big for Win98 right? seems to be about three times as expensive as SD cards...but that's fine if it's the best option.

Could you suggest an exact CF reader which will work for this system? (sorry to again beg for links...just seems whenever I take the specs people give, then find what looks to be the SAME EXACT thing....it isn't, and it won't work! ...and the recent posts here about it are just about them malfunctioning so I def don't want their brand 🤣) . And on these I just plug the CF reader card into a PCI slot, put the CF into the PCI card, and the computer will instantly recognize it as the C:\ native HDD? Or does the ribbon cable from the MB which normally plugs into a mechanical HDD then plug into the new PCI/CF adapter card? (that would make more sense to me)

Honestly guys, I just want to order something so it gets here soon. Otherwise I'm only going to have that 2gb it comes with, which I can't really do much with (like Win98 + Warcraft III won't even fit on that!), and I of course want to immediately start building this and experimenting with my new toy!

Reply 55 of 91, by kolderman

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If you want the simplest option for a HDD and can't find a 120GB IDE drive (unsurprisingly they are sought after items), get a dirt cheap 120gb SSD and a IDE/SATA adapter. Personally I wouldn't use CF for Win98, but I do for DOS. CF2SATA adapters also work well. But it takes all of about 60 seconds to change the capacity of a 500gb seagate to 120gb using seatools...but it's your time and build.

Reply 56 of 91, by maxtherabbit

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You're not going to find new production IDE drives under 128GB, they are not made anymore. Either use the 20GB drive you have, buy a used HDD with a warranty, or get a new larger one and jumper it to limit the reported size as kolderman suggested.

Stay away from CF card as HDD for a system this new. They work great on 386 and under, but their poor linear transfer speeds really start to become a bottleneck with pentium class stuff.

I second the recommendation for a 120GB SSD, they should still be available new production. You would need to purchase an SATA to IDE adapter, but that would give you the best performance overall.

Reply 57 of 91, by chinny22

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I rekon your dreamcast solution is actually your best option here as well and its even easier! no hacking required. Plug 1 end into the HDD other into IDE cable and that's it. As far as the PC knows it's just an IDE drive.
Just keep below 120GB and you'll be fine. SSD is nice but if you have any old drives sitting around just use that. It's what I'll do when I run out of IDE drives.

SD and CF cards are better left with old Dos PC's that max out at 8GB or less

Reply 58 of 91, by dionb

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Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-01-14, 20:40:

Since two posts in a row about not using a small 120gb or less mechanical hard drive, I assume it's because these just don't exist anymore? Like companies just don't make and sell new ones of those anymore? The only ones around that 120gb size I found based on reviews are used and old... I've only been checking Amazon and NewEgg so far (some other random ones but seemed shady, like 'generic' drives....or some for like $100 for a 40gb drive 🤣).

Nobody makes tiny old drives anymore. But why not just get 2nd hand? It's not as if the rest of this system is brand new...

I like having backups for all my gaming systems, and that 20gb HDD is in the other (working) P3 system and I would like to keep it as a backup (also good if I brick one system I can make boot discs or whatever on the other system, or read it's HDD to recover data or whatnot). I don't have another hard drive to put in this new system - smallest I have on hand which is IDE is over the 127gb limit (and see the above about problems finding ~120gb IDE drives).

There is a 2gb SD card in the new system right now - too small for Win98se and my games to fit, and seems like people don't like SD cards so that's out. I think any micro SD cards (with SD adapter) I have will be 128 or 256gb - might have a random 32 or 64gb hidden somewhere...can always buy one, but again, everybody seems to hate them.

So...if we're back to the other options, knowing that all the IDE to SATA controllers confuse me, it seems like the CompactFlash is what you really, really, like? Larger media for those seems to be a little expensive ($39 for 64gb isn't bad, $65 for 128gb - which is too big for Win98 right? seems to be about three times as expensive as SD cards...but that's fine if it's the best option.

I'm not recommending a 2GB drive for Win98, I'm still saying that unless you want a bad compromise, you want two physically separate drives for DOS and Win98. For Win98 you want a HDD or SSD. If you don't want to mess with converters or adapters and want to be able to format the drive in your system itself, that means you want a PATA/IDE HDD with ~32GB storage (no more). No CF or SD as they don't like the wear patterns and tend to be too slow. They don't make mechanical drives like that anymore, just buy 2nd hand eg. on eBay.

For DOS you want a <2GB drive. There you can do a mechanical drive, but they are loud and slow, so I prefer CF. DOS is far less active with the drive so the wear issues are less relevant as is speed. Low latency and ease of swapping out is much more so. That is why I recommend a CF card. 1GB is about the sweet spot for DOS.

The reason for recommending CF over SD is simple: CF *is* IDE, it is exactly the same protocol, so no conversion, no added latencies, no weird compatibility issues - they're the perfect match for old IDE systems.

The motherboard has two IDE headers for four drives. Stick the IDE/CF adapter in one, the Win98 HDD in the other. If you want optical media, connect that as a slave on the same cable as the HDD.

Could you suggest an exact CF reader which will work for this system? (sorry to again beg for links...just seems whenever I take the specs people give, then find what looks to be the SAME EXACT thing....it isn't, and it won't work! ...and the recent posts here about it are just about them malfunctioning so I def don't want their brand 🤣) . And on these I just plug the CF reader card into a PCI slot, put the CF into the PCI card, and the computer will instantly recognize it as the C:\ native HDD? Or does the ribbon cable from the MB which normally plugs into a mechanical HDD then plug into the new PCI/CF adapter card? (that would make more sense to me)

I have a pile of these, work fine (as long as the card itself is good):
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32914656841.html

With 1GB cards, the higher price per GB is pretty irrelevant as it's all cheap anyway.

Honestly guys, I just want to order something so it gets here soon. Otherwise I'm only going to have that 2gb it comes with, which I can't really do much with (like Win98 + Warcraft III won't even fit on that!), and I of course want to immediately start building this and experimenting with my new toy!

It comes with 2GB? Then use that for DOS and just get a HDD for Win98

Here's a perfectly decent one for a nice price in the US:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Quantum-Fireba ... 4030190896

Reply 59 of 91, by Dochartaigh

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kolderman wrote on 2020-01-14, 21:12:

get a dirt cheap 120gb SSD and a IDE/SATA adapter

maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-01-14, 21:46:

I second the recommendation for a 120GB SSD, they should still be available new production. You would need to purchase an SATA to IDE adapter, but that would give you the best performance overall.

chinny22 wrote on 2020-01-14, 23:06:

I rekon your dreamcast solution is actually your best option here as well and its even easier! no hacking required. Plug 1 end into the HDD other into IDE cable and that's it. As far as the PC knows it's just an IDE drive.

So all, is it really as easy as using that Startech SATA to IDE adapter (is this the one people recommend for P3 builds?)? I'm not using the one on my Dreamcast anymore (got an ODE for that), so I can try it.

BUT, if the above is so easy, what was all the talk of the PCI cards where you have to flash their BIOS on a couple types of them? Or what about the Promise TX2 Plus (which the only one I can find is here and I don't know if it's the correct model Dionb recommended) which Dionb highly recommended? Are these PCI card versions better? Faster? If I'm going to pickup a 120gb SSD (found a Crucial for $22 shipped, and I can get it tomorrow...), I would rather take advantage of that speed so please let me know the pros and cons of one vs the other. One benefit of the TX2 plus seems to be that I can run 2x HDD's (or SSD's) off it which does look nice...so if that's the correct model and it'll work on this Dell's MB (which only has PCI 2.1 NOT 2.2) with that Crucial 120gb SSD, I'll definitely pick that combo up.



dionb wrote on 2020-01-14, 23:23:

Nobody makes tiny old drives anymore. But why not just get 2nd hand? It's not as if the rest of this system is brand new...

Because I help run the 34tb Mac server at work and we've lost, no joke, 6 Seagate drives in a month period! Then ANOTHER drive, a 10TB external I just backed everything up to, died the very day after we put the new 16TB raid! So I'm VERY dismayed about storage right now, thus new unless I can't help it!