cyclone3d wrote on 2022-04-30, 17:01:

Some LCDs have a pretty good built in scaler.

And there are also external scaler boxes. The good ones aren't cheap and most of the best ones are no longer manufactured. I've got a couple of the TVOne scalers that allow you to adjust every single parameter possible and they also have a ton of included settings.

Programming is done with a utility program.

I worry about the added latency of a scaler.

Took delivery of a Casio CSM-1 and Casiotone MT-540 earlier this week.

Got these for recording music from old Sierra games that supported them.

I somehow found this minty HP Pavilion at a thrift store for 20 dollars, I didn't have to think too hard about buying it.

$2 SideWinder

Unsure if i should remove the sticker of leave it on for the reminder of the bargain hahh

holdencars11 wrote on 2022-05-01, 07:31:

$2 SideWinder

Unsure if i should remove the sticker of leave it on for the reminder of the bargain hahh

Sorry mate, but 2 bucks for a conventional joystick is not a bargain, it's basically double the usual price. 🙁 Even if every modern PC came with an IBM game port, no one would be using these any more. Have a look at how their sampling works: They're not even the equivalent of ball mice - ball mice usually have optical sensors.
If ball mice are the bronze age of input devices, conventional joysticks are positively neolithic. So, no matter the skill and sophistication, there's only so much you can do with stone instead of steel.

That being said, I'm the proud owner of a Logitech Wingman since 27 years, as well as a Wingman pro, a Sidewinder and since yesterday, a Thrustmaster Top Gun Fox 2 that stalled on ebay twice over 20 days and was likely headed for the garbage. 😁

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-05-01, 11:30:

Sorry mate, but 2 bucks for a conventional joystick is not a bargain, it's basically double the usual price. 🙁 Even if every modern PC came with an IBM game port, no one would be using these any more. Have a look at how their sampling works: They're not even the equivalent of ball mice - ball mice usually have optical sensors.
If ball mice are the bronze age of input devices, conventional joysticks are positively neolithic. So, no matter the skill and sophistication, there's only so much you can do with stone instead of steel.

That being said, I'm the proud owner of a Logitech Wingman since 27 years, as well as a Wingman pro, a Sidewinder and since yesterday, a Thrustmaster Top Gun Fox 2 that stalled on ebay twice over 20 days and was likely headed for the garbage. 😁

You can get Joysticks for $1?? Here they are going between $15 -20 and similar prices in the pawn shops. A similar '3d pro' gameport one sold for $37 on ebay only a few days ago.
IDK I use my Logitech Wingman Formula gameport wheel all the time without problems, and same with an IBM gameport gamepad.

holdencars11 wrote on 2022-05-01, 11:56:

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-05-01, 11:30:

Sorry mate, but 2 bucks for a conventional joystick is not a bargain, it's basically double the usual price. 🙁 Even if every modern PC came with an IBM game port, no one would be using these any more. Have a look at how their sampling works: They're not even the equivalent of ball mice - ball mice usually have optical sensors.
If ball mice are the bronze age of input devices, conventional joysticks are positively neolithic. So, no matter the skill and sophistication, there's only so much you can do with stone instead of steel.

That being said, I'm the proud owner of a Logitech Wingman since 27 years, as well as a Wingman pro, a Sidewinder and since yesterday, a Thrustmaster Top Gun Fox 2 that stalled on ebay twice over 20 days and was likely headed for the garbage. 😁

You can get Joysticks for $1?? Here they are going between $15 -20 and similar prices in the pawn shops. A similar '3d pro' gameport one sold for $37 on ebay only a few days ago.
IDK I use my Logitech Wingman Formula gameport wheel all the time without problems, and same with an IBM gameport gamepad.

...if not two or more for that amount. They've pretty much gone the way of the CRT TV, at least on ebay. If you keep something in a shop, you'll have to charge at least two digits just for the space and organization.
I assume the wheel works differently and anyway, wheels were rather expensive and might be some better quality on average. Gamepads with "digital" keys only are also trivial.

But, the example of the Logitech Wingman: My brother and I really loved that thing and it's an awesome design and cost us DM 40 back then which felt like a fortune for a toy.
(I had actually broken the generic joystick we had until then right off at the base, playing Tie-Fighter.)
Alas, that thing basically doesn't have a definitive, stable "neutral" position. The slightest vibration would throw it off.
Which makes sense since "middle of the axis" is just a random half-way spot on a cheap 150 Ohm potentiometer.
But that could be a real pain in Tie-Fighter - when aiming missiles, you had to stay on target for some seconds and the crosshairs wandering slightly off all the time was a major nuisance.
Can't compare many modern joysticks but some must have gotten that right.
Of course, you'd have to recalibrate that thing every time you load that game.
So, the few people who still have joysticks today, no matter how cheap game port adapters might be, they'd go with USB models.

Also, many consider used input devices some kind of icky.

Simplified economics dictate: The moment you've 10 items for 9 buyers, the 10th is worthless. Any you'd still have to pay five bucks for shipping...

OK, that was put in a stupid category, but I'd definitely have taken that offer, despite owning both the sidewinder and the wingman already:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Konvolut-4-Joysticks- … K-/334365264515
Sure, fancy things like the full Thrustmaster HOTAS set still sell for more, but basic brand models, bottom of the barrel.

I don't think joystick mechanics have gotten better, but you can specify a center dead zone in many drivers/utils now.

bofh.fromhell wrote on 2022-04-29, 00:39:

Tetrium wrote on 2022-04-29, 00:34:

bofh.fromhell wrote on 2022-04-29, 00:27:

Yea you hook them on and twist to tension them.
And also pray you don't hear a crunch ^^

And to be fair, S370 precedes Socket A so many heatsinks just say S370 on them even tho they work just fine on Socket A.

I never planned to use these similar ones I have. The ones I have btw were all installed on Thunderbirds xD

They are fine if you use them on PPGA CPU's.
I mean they would look right at home on an ABIT BP6!

They do, indeed, but needs some machining to fit due to clearances https://www.bp6.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1469

Luckily I made a PDF while the images were still there ...

Just nabbed a Yamaha SCSI CD burner for 10€ and a box of sealed EMTEC floppy disks for 1€.

The floppies I'm not holding my breath out for all of them to be working, probably a dud or two, or more if worse comes to worst.

holdencars11 wrote on 2022-05-01, 11:56:

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-05-01, 11:30:

Sorry mate, but 2 bucks for a conventional joystick is not a bargain, it's basically double the usual price. 🙁 Even if every modern PC came with an IBM game port, no one would be using these any more. Have a look at how their sampling works: They're not even the equivalent of ball mice - ball mice usually have optical sensors.
If ball mice are the bronze age of input devices, conventional joysticks are positively neolithic. So, no matter the skill and sophistication, there's only so much you can do with stone instead of steel.

That being said, I'm the proud owner of a Logitech Wingman since 27 years, as well as a Wingman pro, a Sidewinder and since yesterday, a Thrustmaster Top Gun Fox 2 that stalled on ebay twice over 20 days and was likely headed for the garbage. 😁

You can get Joysticks for $1?? Here they are going between $15 -20 and similar prices in the pawn shops. A similar '3d pro' gameport one sold for $37 on ebay only a few days ago.
IDK I use my Logitech Wingman Formula gameport wheel all the time without problems, and same with an IBM gameport gamepad.

He's talking about cheap crap. Cheap and/or poorly-made crap = crap. True for joysticks, true for everything.

Quality items which get their merits from actually being nice to use, hold reasonable value. Just as true for game controllers as anything else.

Game controllers are their own extensive and popular market, that began quite shortly after the advent of video games themselves.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-05-01, 23:06:

He's talking about cheap crap. Cheap and/or poorly-made crap = crap. True for joysticks, true for everything. […]
Show full quote

holdencars11 wrote on 2022-05-01, 11:56:

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-05-01, 11:30:

Sorry mate, but 2 bucks for a conventional joystick is not a bargain, it's basically double the usual price. 🙁 Even if every modern PC came with an IBM game port, no one would be using these any more. Have a look at how their sampling works: They're not even the equivalent of ball mice - ball mice usually have optical sensors.
If ball mice are the bronze age of input devices, conventional joysticks are positively neolithic. So, no matter the skill and sophistication, there's only so much you can do with stone instead of steel.

That being said, I'm the proud owner of a Logitech Wingman since 27 years, as well as a Wingman pro, a Sidewinder and since yesterday, a Thrustmaster Top Gun Fox 2 that stalled on ebay twice over 20 days and was likely headed for the garbage. 😁

You can get Joysticks for $1?? Here they are going between $15 -20 and similar prices in the pawn shops. A similar '3d pro' gameport one sold for $37 on ebay only a few days ago.
IDK I use my Logitech Wingman Formula gameport wheel all the time without problems, and same with an IBM gameport gamepad.

He's talking about cheap crap. Cheap and/or poorly-made crap = crap. True for joysticks, true for everything.

Quality items which get their merits from actually being nice to use, hold reasonable value. Just as true for game controllers as anything else.

Game controllers are their own extensive and popular market, that began quite shortly after the advent of video games themselves.

Well, not quite. Or, it depends on your definition. Most mainstream input devices ever were pretty much cheap crap made in China, yes.
But, at least by their own claim, Logitech, MS Sidewinder or Thrustmaster weren't cheap crap. They were several times the price of generic no-name shit and of decent built quality. And yet...

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-05-01, 23:10:

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-05-01, 23:06:

He's talking about cheap crap. Cheap and/or poorly-made crap = crap. True for joysticks, true for everything. […]
Show full quote

holdencars11 wrote on 2022-05-01, 11:56:

You can get Joysticks for $1?? Here they are going between $15 -20 and similar prices in the pawn shops. A similar '3d pro' gameport one sold for $37 on ebay only a few days ago.
IDK I use my Logitech Wingman Formula gameport wheel all the time without problems, and same with an IBM gameport gamepad.

He's talking about cheap crap. Cheap and/or poorly-made crap = crap. True for joysticks, true for everything.

Quality items which get their merits from actually being nice to use, hold reasonable value. Just as true for game controllers as anything else.

Game controllers are their own extensive and popular market, that began quite shortly after the advent of video games themselves.

Well, not quite. Or, it depends on your definition. Most mainstream input devices ever were pretty much cheap crap made in China, yes.
But, at least by their own claim, Logitech, MS Sidewinder or Thrustmaster weren't cheap crap. They were several times the price of generic no-name shit and of decent built quality. And yet...

What do you use to play Tie Fighter?

Also, if you have some Thrustmasters, MS, and Logitech joysticks that you'd like to sell me 2-to-a-dollar, that sounds interesting. I suspect you'd get a great deal of applicants.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-05-01, 23:13:

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-05-01, 23:10:

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-05-01, 23:06:

He's talking about cheap crap. Cheap and/or poorly-made crap = crap. True for joysticks, true for everything.

Quality items which get their merits from actually being nice to use, hold reasonable value. Just as true for game controllers as anything else.

Game controllers are their own extensive and popular market, that began quite shortly after the advent of video games themselves.

Well, not quite. Or, it depends on your definition. Most mainstream input devices ever were pretty much cheap crap made in China, yes.
But, at least by their own claim, Logitech, MS Sidewinder or Thrustmaster weren't cheap crap. They were several times the price of generic no-name shit and of decent built quality. And yet...

What do you use to play Tie Fighter?

Also, if you have some Thrustmasters, MS, and Logitech joysticks that you'd like to sell me 2-to-a-dollar, that sounds interesting. I suspect you'd get a great deal of applicants.

As I wrote, I used to play Tie Fighter on the Logitech Wingman, whith the annoying shortcomings, but I still had a blast, of course.

Around here, definitely some interest, sure 😉
But really, I don't know where you're at, but here in Germany, these things abound - meaning they sell for the minimal Euro or not at all in bay auctions.
Well, the basic models like the original Sidewinder or Logi Wingman. Of the latter, I have three by now. Plus the "Extreme" and the "Pro" Tempted to get the "light" just for the nice white plastic. 😉

So, fancier models with some quirks go for 20 to 50, but the usual fare, uhm, again:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Konvolut-4-Joysticks- … K-/334365264515

Quick sample of 1 Euro Thrustmaster deals on the bay, those are the last 90 days, afaik:

yeah, I got one of those €1 deals recently, and then the seller just cancelled the sale without comment and doesn't reply, so good luck 😉

ebay really has an amazing system there, where you can't even leave feedback if the sale got cancelled, and the buyer has no say in it, I hadn't payed yet at the time cause I was sound asleep when the auction ended, so the seller had a few hours before I got up and checked.

imi wrote on 2022-05-01, 23:35:

yeah, I got one of those €1 deals recently, and then the seller just cancelled the sale without comment and doesn't reply, so good luck 😉

Oh, they're allowed to do that without serious repercussions?!?

I buy 1 Euro Items all the time, including some that used to be in the 500 € range when new, like video equipment.
(I bought a Voodoo 3000 for a Euro, but some years ago...)
Took delivery of a 1 € Thrustmaster joystick on Saturday, that came without anything else, just that plus shipping.
Sorry you had such bad luck with nasty people... I mean, that's the Ebay promise, one buck can be enough, isn't it?

Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-05-01, 23:21:

So, fancier models with some quirks go for 20 to 50

Or, quality gear still costs.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-05-01, 23:21:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Konvolut-4-Joysticks- … K-/334365264515

Not bad. Where I am, the market would = an insta-$10 (each) for the Precision Pro and Logitech, at least.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-05-01, 23:21:

Quick sample of 1 Euro Thrustmaster deals on the bay, those are the last 90 days, afaik:

And the native DOS, gameport $1 Thrustmasters?

What you've posted there above is, yes, just cheap digital Win9x-and-above (or console, in some instances) "crap".

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-05-02, 00:28:

And the native DOS, gameport $1 Thrustmasters?
What you've posted there above is, yes, just cheap digital Win9x-and-above (or console, in some instances) "crap".

OK, I don't know my Thrustmasters that well, just made a random search, did not check the specs. You may be right that those are not old enough to be of any value "again".
Then again, the Thrustmaster stick I got last week was certainly "native DOS" - but sadly, still looks and feels like pretty cheap crap.
Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today
But, on the other hand - I bought that after it had run out three times, so even the one Euro is a shaky assessment...
Are you in the US? Everything is more expensive there and mainly, for many things, the market seems to have been swept completely while in Europe there's still a bit of a oversupply.
Voodoo cards or SB64 are the same "+3000 %" mess over here.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-05-02, 00:39:

OK, I don't know my Thrustmasters that well, just made a random search, did not check the specs. You may be right that those are […]
Show full quote

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-05-02, 00:28:

And the native DOS, gameport $1 Thrustmasters?
What you've posted there above is, yes, just cheap digital Win9x-and-above (or console, in some instances) "crap".

OK, I don't know my Thrustmasters that well, just made a random search, did not check the specs. You may be right that those are not old enough to be of any value "again".
Then again, the Thrustmaster stick I got last week was certainly "native DOS" - but sadly, still looks and feels like pretty cheap crap.
Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today
But, on the other hand - I bought that after it had run out three times, so even the one Euro is a shaky assessment...
Are you in the US? Everything is more expensive there and mainly, for many things, the market seems to have been swept completely while in Europe there's still a bit of a oversupply.
Voodoo cards or SB64 are the same "+3000 %" mess over here.

Yeah that stick you got is rubbish. I mean, subjectively. I'm sure it could be put to some use. But it's a far cry from what people mean when they talk about the iconic Thrustmaster days of yore.

I totally agree with you that most old joysticks are $1 rubbish. Because most old everything is $1 rubbish. Fact remains that, as with everything, there's a slim core of vaguely agreed-upon "outstanding products" out there, which retain some value through specific purpose and merit.

Even deeper, there are sub-niches where people have to search far and wide before they're able to find an ideal controller. Quite far from the utopia of $1-crap freely raining down for all, it's more of a long term mission, where sometimes even (gasp) !dozens! of $ are spent 😉

Kahenraz wrote on 2022-04-30, 20:45:

cyclone3d wrote on 2022-04-30, 17:01:

Some LCDs have a pretty good built in scaler.

And there are also external scaler boxes. The good ones aren't cheap and most of the best ones are no longer manufactured. I've got a couple of the TVOne scalers that allow you to adjust every single parameter possible and they also have a ton of included settings.

Programming is done with a utility program.

I worry about the added latency of a scaler.

There is no noticeable latency from what I can tell.

Have you ever tried a good scaler?