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A question about speed

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First post, by Silent Loon

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Just out of curiosity I started my "normal" Athlon64 3200+ 2GB Ram Pc with a win me dos-boot floppy disk (should be dos 7.10?). Then I started "Skyroads" from floppy disk.
I expected the game to be unplayable fast, but it ran just with the speed it used to. Mhm.
I tried the same with Star Control 1, "pratice mode" / human player vs. computer - same result.
Does this mean that those games are not "speed sensitive" and - furthermore - that they will allways run with the "right" speed regardless on which machine (assumed that the min req. of the game are fulfilled)?

Is there a list (speed sensitive - yes/no)?

Reply 1 of 38, by GL1zdA

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Most programs are speed insensitive. Being speed sensitive is considered bad programming. I've never seen a list of games contain this bug, but maybe we should make one. Maybe someone could start a wiki for Marvin?

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Reply 2 of 38, by retro games 100

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I'm interested in the speed problem issue. Here's one example: the DOS RPG called "Thunderscape" by SSI, (c) 1995. You can run this game on a fast machine (eg P3), and it appears to work correctly. However, once you get very far in to the game, you must enter areas which have streams in them. If you walk in to the water, and you are running the game on a fast machine, your movement becomes uncontrollably fast. You must quit the game, and copy your save game file(s) to a slower machine (eg DOSBox, or a 486) and resume play if you want to continue any further.

Reply 3 of 38, by bestemor

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re: Thunderscape...

Please tell me where that problem occurs ?
Name and number(if any?) of level, as well as some description.

I've tried to finish it, but temporarily (8 years?) quit cause there was some weird wall puzzle and lotsa 'caves'/tunnels, which I was unable to suss out...

Cant remember any particular speed problems though.
Or maybe my problems started exactly where you are referring to.... as there WERE some 'streams', going in and out of different 'rooms'(not a regular cavelike structure)

(all on a Celereon 566@850)

Reply 4 of 38, by retro games 100

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I wonder if you got stuck at level 16 - the catacombs. There is a section there were there are lots of buttons in a fairly small room. Off to one side of this room, there's a series of 3 metal gates in a short corridor, and just beyond that, you can see one of those "dancing fire creatures". The idea is to get the 3 gates open so that you can continue, and you do that by pressing all of the buttons in a special sequence.

Beyond level 16 is the sewers (level 17). This is IMHO one of the best levels in the game. It's on that level that the speed problems begin.

To check out the description of these levels, and others in the game, please see this useful walkthrough -

http://www.the-spoiler.com/RPG/SSI/thunderscape.1.html

Reply 5 of 38, by HunterZ

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GL1zdA wrote:

Most programs are speed insensitive. Being speed sensitive is considered bad programming. I've never seen a list of games contain this bug, but maybe we should make one. Maybe someone could start a wiki for Marvin?

I don't know about "most". I think that's more true for games that are too new to run on the original 8086 IBM PC.

Right now I'm playing Ultima I and it has lots of speed issues. The sounds even change pitch depending on the cycles= setting in DOSBox (I'm running at 750 but I'd love to know how it's supposed to sound on a real IBM PC). Also annoying is that text screens tend to disappear before you can read them if the cycles= setting is too high.

Reply 7 of 38, by archsan

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Guys, i wanna throw quick words here...

since this question will be repeated over and over again (be it on real hardware or DOSBox), i second the idea of making wiki for speed issues. IMO this is best added to the game's 'technical info' (like in MobyGames) or spec.req. If someone/group has been doing this elsewhere, please let us know so we can help/give inputs.

a format would greatly help. However if you want to give a quick input here, please at least state the min. & recommended (if any) requirement and on what CPU class and clockspeed you played it. This will free us from generalization (like '8086 games', '286 games' etc) and get more title-specific (remember, this is programming issue, not hardware issue).

several inputs from earlier posters have made the example already:

speed-sensitive:
Ultima 1, req:8088/8086
Wing Commander 1 & 2, req:286
Thunderscape, req:486? (with P3--too fast on water streams area)

non-speed-sensitive:
Star Control, req:8088/8086
SkyRoads, req:286

BIG thanks!

Reply 8 of 38, by bestemor

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Thunderscape:
Thanks for info 😎

Yes, seems like I got stalled in the Sewers, with all those control or engine rooms.
Still, can't remember any speed problems.
What exact speed/CPU did you have ?

Reply 9 of 38, by retro games 100

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Re Thunderscape, the sewers level. There's a distinctive "streams section" in that level. MINOR SPOILER........................You jump off a small "cliff" and land in the water. If your machine is too fast (I'm sure I had a slot 1 P3 @maybe 550 or 800), it's practically impossible to control your swimming to reach 4 switches. After that bit, you are swiftly transported down many twists and turns, in a series of interconnected streams. Do you remember that part? There's a bit in the middle where you can jump out of this "stream maze", and stand on "dry land" for a moment (in order to throw a switch), before you jump back in the stream again. If your machine is too fast, you simply cannot find that "dry land" section because your movement is uncontrollably fast. .................END MINOR SPOILER.

It maybe possible to test this, without having to plough through the game from the beginning. I know I found this game's combat too difficult, and I used a hex editor to give my party better health etc. Perhaps there's a UGE (Universal Game Editor) file on the net, which can adjust the game's current level? If that's possible, then it could be set to 17, and you would be able to retest this part of the game on a faster machine.

Re: other games with speed problems. Ultima 6 seems to be designed for 386s. I tested the game on a 486sx-25 with all BIOS options (eg cache) set to "fail safe", and it was just about playable.

Also: Outcast (Atari/Infogrames, 2000) exhibits strange behaviour if the CPU is approx 1Ghz or higher.

Reply 10 of 38, by bestemor

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Sorry for the slight hijacking... 😅
But once again, thanks Retro for the tips.

I don't remember much else from that level, as it was the nineties last time I played it (!)
Last thing I DO remember was standing in a 'room' with lotsa wall switches(?), trying to make out how to trigger something/door/dunno...

Maybe I'll pick it up again soon. I believe I have the saves somwhere, so...
Didn't use any editing etc, but admittedly quite a lot of save reload when levelling (don't remember why exactly, something to do with getting the best attribute numbers?). Think I had the upgraded steam robot as a party member as well.

Oh well, I guess that'll be quite enough of Thunderscape for this 'speed' thread 😁

Reply 11 of 38, by retro games 100

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I just thought of another speed sensitive game - Witchaven 2: Blood Vengeance. I played this game on a P3 (@550 or @800), and everything seemed OK until I pressed the jump key. The jump animation is too fast.

Reply 12 of 38, by archsan

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I just thought of Syndicate Wars, and probably Syndicate as well. I'll have to re-check though, as i completely forgot about when/on what i last played them (was it just GUI, or gameplay too?).

edit: per gerwin's post below, Syndicate is non-speed sensitive. And i recall with S-Wars it was menu GUI that went too fast, actual gameplay may be just fine--i need to find my old cd first to check it

(hey, I just found an old EA Games bonus CD-ROM from my old SB16 containing... PAGAN/Ultima VIII, Syndicate, Strike Commander, and WC2!!)

other random inputs, sorry for lack of information, but now i'm in "collecting" mode:

*Theme Park
*Dungeon Keeper

Both Theme Park and Dungeon Keeper (on my old Windows machine) were too fast to play, so you had to Mo'Slo them

source

*re:WC1 & WC2. Supposedly non-speed-sensitive WC1 & WC2 release can be found in the Kilrathi Saga package, made to run on Windows 95. Has anyone tried this on a much faster machine than 486?

Last edited by archsan on 2009-07-04, 12:10. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 13 of 38, by gerwin

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The following games seem to give me speed related issues, as they run too fast on a Pentium III:
Chaos Engine (Bitmap Brothers)
Death Track (Activision)
Quarantine (Gametek)
FirePower (Silent software)
Theme Park (Bullfrog)

Then Alien carnage/Halloween harry had the well known runtime 200 system speed related error, but there is working patch for it.

Syndicate seems to work fine on a Pentium III.

Reply 14 of 38, by archsan

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From MoSlo's website--very helpful information there, link:

Apogee
* Math Rescue (req:286)
* Word Rescue (req:8088/8086)
* Dark Ages (req:286)
* Monuments of Mars (req:8088/8086)
* Arctic Adventure (req:8088/8086)
* Pharaoh's Tomb (req:8088/8086)
* The Kroz Series

Blizzard Entertainment
* Warcraft II (req:486) -- issue:over-fast map scrolling

Interplay
* (from The Forgotten Realms Archives -- not sure which titles exactly)
* (from The Ultimate RPG Archives -- not sure which titles exactly)
* Lexi-Cross (req:8088/8086)

LucasArts
* Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (req:286)
* Their Finest Hour: The Battle of Britain (req:8088/8086)
* Star Wars: X-Wing (req:386) -- issue: missions 2 and 6

MicroProse (Spectrum HoloByte)
* X-COM: UFO Defense (req:386)
* Falcon 3.0 (req:286)
* Stunt Driver (req:286)

Origin
* Ultima I-V (req:8088/8086)
* later Ultima games? can someone confirm speed issues?
* Wing Commander I (req:286)
* Privateer 2: The Darkening (req:Pentium)

Sierra (DOS versions)
* Space Quest 1-4 (req:8088/8086) -- issue: character movement too fast
* Space Quest 5 (req:286) -- issue: character movement too fast
* Space Quest 6 (req:486) -- issue:'error 47'?
* Police Quest 1 (req:8088/8086) -- issue: lock-up at Bert's Park
* Police Quest 3 (req:8088/8086) -- issue: uncontrollably-fast car
* A-10 Tank Killer (req:8088/8086) -- issue:runway overruns during takeoff
* Red Baron (req:286) issue: 16-color too fast

BIG Thanks to MoSlo developers and users

i hope this isn't called 'stealing' information, but it's public, so...
(i rather be called an adsman for moslo--even though i've never tried it yet--rather than 'stealer' :p)

Anyway, my intention is just to put together a usable reference on this topic--since i'm trying to build a downclockable Pentium II system myself--so a resource like this is very helpful.

(requirements i listed here are for original DOS versions)
Additional Thanks to MobyGames

Reply 16 of 38, by archsan

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Oh, really? i never thought of that. I usually think the opposite--slowed-down CPU + fast graphics. Thx for the tips--now i wonder about the slowest VGA card i could put on a 440BX mobo... an ISA card? this is interesting 😜

Reply 17 of 38, by h-a-l-9000

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My experiment CPU was a Celeron 500.

Frogger:
with CGA card (not an original one): a bit too fast.
with other cards: way too fast.

Wing Commander 1:
with VGA 8-bit card (I think it was the 'VGA butterfly'): nice playable speed.
with S3 Trio64 PCI: too fast.

Alphawaves (strange shareware/freeware game):
with VGA 8-bit card: no flickering
with S3 Trio64 PCI: Screen flickering (probably doesn't expect drawing to finish so early)

Galactix: Issue is missing sequences in the Intro. Not fixed by slow graphics card.

1+1=10

Reply 19 of 38, by h-a-l-9000

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There is a catch, though: some of the oldest VGA cards don't work properly (black/white instead of color) or not at all because their BIOSes can't cope with fast CPUs.

1+1=10