In games spatialization is actually the most important thing, as I said.

I don't disagree.

And it's not just dependent on headphones and speakers. I provided a link precisely to sustain my claim then.
Realtek had broken EAX years ago for example. But no other qualitative test has been done ever since afaik.

I don't know anything about EAX or hardware sound.

And btw, sorry if it could seem I'm offending you, you said you are not a serious gamer.. should I assume you never joined the hardware directsound bandwagon (nothing important with never games of course) and play old games with just plain half done sound?

No never have. The newest games I play are about offbeat 2011 games. For example I just played through Portal 2
and the sound sounded good and moved spatially as I looked around in the game as I would expect.

If you knew of everything I said though, good for you

I never claimed to know about hardware sound. I was just expressing my opinion on
the sound card not making much difference for a casual gamer. No need for a smart ass remark

In the "spatialization is the most important thing for gaming" debate, I'll add the following.
EAX or similar features, can't add a whole lot of immersion to certain types of games. I remember the first time I played Unreal with an SB Live! and EAX on headphones. Hearing monsters creeping up from behind or moving in a side corridor was totally awesome. However, move the gaming into the realm of "high speed gameplay" and these details lose their importance. Move it into the realm of "competitive play" and the immersion factor becomes moot, because you stop being drawn into the game world and instead start seeing the game simply as an arena for competition against other players.
Also, I'd argue that first person shooters work especially well with EAX style effects.
And finally, for me... Neither of the mentioned types of playing (first person shooter, high speed or competitive) is anything I have much interest in.
Funnily enough I do use discreet sound cards though. 😉

I learned to play many online games by sound, with a 4-channel sound system, as its the only defense for whats behind you 🤣 .
So sound positioning means alot to me.

So I completely agree, it doesn't matter if these Realtek onboard chips have a high SNR, if they don't get the sound positioning correctly in games.
Its why the Recon3d and Z series actually have an option to do additional processing to single those sounds out with its scout mode.

I still swear by my X-Fi Titanium HD and CMSS-3D Headphone for the time being.

Creative's software OpenAL renderer (used on their USB devices, X-Fi MB, all Sound Core3D products) doesn't seem quite as effective as hardware OpenAL on the X-Fi lineup, and I wasn't exactly impressed by THX TSP/SBX Pro Surround from a positioning standpoint.

Granted, this is coming from the guy whose retrogaming PC build has THREE sound cards crammed in it, one of them being an X-Fi Prelude for XP and another being a TB Montego II (any Aureal Vortex2 card would suffice, really) for 98SE. Stuff like this is what I have to go through to hear the majority of pre-2007 games as they were intended because the software DirectSound fallback just sounds terrible.

LunarG wrote:

Also, I'd argue that for testing the quality of sound cards, using headphones is a bad idea. Generally I find that good quality hifi speakers provide a much better listening experience than headphones. The positioning of the different sounds stand out much more clearly in the sound image when using a good quality amplifier and speakers. It's all a matter of preference of course.

That I don't agree with. Depends on what speakers and headphones you're comparing, really.

But the moment I tried CMSS-3D Headphone with an Audio-Technica AD700, I never looked back. Headphones with good virtual surround ala CMSS-3D or A3D are so far ahead of any surround speaker system I've listened to, and so much more convenient to boot (no dependence on room acoustics, no wires running all over the place, only two channels of output needed), that I wouldn't think of using anything else to really put my head in the game with accurate audio positioning all around. Cue one big and expensive Head-Fi journey over the years, one that would've culminated in Stax were it financially feasible.

Too bad modern games have effectively handicapped themselves to two-dimensional 7.1 speaker systems with no sense of height these days; I kinda miss OpenAL, though I'll miss it a lot less if this second wave of VR makes HRTF mixing a standard feature in games.

CMSS-3D and AD700 is a legendary combo! No doubt a fantastic experience 😀

Personally I prefer surround speakers but the space requirements are a pain and many don't place the speakers correctly which results in disappointing surround experience.

I made a diagram in GeoGebra: http://i.imgur.com/BeO0q27.png

Played some F.E.A.R. and Far Cry on my Windows XP Time Machine with PCIe X-Fi Titanium and the experience is really something. With headphones you do hear more finer details but I prefer the positioning you get from the speakers. But not everyone can place the speakers like the are meant to be placed which doesn't make surround speakers a suitable option for many. I have speaker stands for the surround speakers and just move them when I'm not gaming.

obobskivich wrote:

mirh wrote:

The thing is a bit more complex.

I don't understand this comment in context of your broader reply or what you've quoted from me. This seems to imply that you disagree with something I said, but I see the rest of your reply as being in full agreement with what I said. 😊 😀

:\ indeed I don't understand why I quoted you

NamelessPlayer wrote:

I still swear by my X-Fi Titanium HD and CMSS-3D Headphone for the time being.

Creative's software OpenAL renderer (used on their USB devices, X-Fi MB, all Sound Core3D products) doesn't seem quite as effective as hardware OpenAL on the X-Fi lineup, and I wasn't exactly impressed by THX TSP/SBX Pro Surround from a positioning standpoint.

And you are right indeed

NamelessPlayer wrote:

Granted, this is coming from the guy whose retrogaming PC build has THREE sound cards crammed in it, one of them being an X-Fi Prelude for XP and another being a TB Montego II (any Aureal Vortex2 card would suffice, really) for 98SE. Stuff like this is what I have to go through to hear the majority of pre-2007 games as they were intended because the software DirectSound fallback just sounds terrible.

I really really really envy you. Does that card even support A3D 3.0? If so, hats off.

NamelessPlayer wrote:

Too bad modern games have effectively handicapped themselves to two-dimensional 7.1 speaker systems with no sense of height these days; I kinda miss OpenAL, though I'll miss it a lot less if this second wave of VR makes HRTF mixing a standard feature in games.

Damn it. This is probably the only thing I regret my Xonar DX lack compared to soundblasters.
Even though I still see lots of people around there debating whether dolby headphone can hold a candle to them or not.

(I greatly encourage you to check the link above and review the openAL alternative "drivers")

philscomputerlab wrote:

CMSS-3D and AD700 is a legendary combo! No doubt a fantastic experience :) […]
Show full quote

CMSS-3D and AD700 is a legendary combo! No doubt a fantastic experience 😀

Personally I prefer surround speakers but the space requirements are a pain and many don't place the speakers correctly which results in disappointing surround experience.

I made a diagram in GeoGebra: http://i.imgur.com/BeO0q27.png

Played some F.E.A.R. and Far Cry on my Windows XP Time Machine with PCIe X-Fi Titanium and the experience is really something. With headphones you do hear more finer details but I prefer the positioning you get from the speakers. But not everyone can place the speakers like the are meant to be placed which doesn't make surround speakers a suitable option for many. I have speaker stands for the surround speakers and just move them when I'm not gaming.

Imo, the only thing that headphones won't probably ever return is that deep bass wave that shakes your bones which only a big subwoofer can produce
For proper spatialisation (especially if the game has weak or no HRTF functions) 7.1 surround downmix (and eventually CMSS-3D or D-HP) greatly helps

mirh wrote:

NamelessPlayer wrote:

I still swear by my X-Fi Titanium HD and CMSS-3D Headphone for the time being.

Creative's software OpenAL renderer (used on their USB devices, X-Fi MB, all Sound Core3D products) doesn't seem quite as effective as hardware OpenAL on the X-Fi lineup, and I wasn't exactly impressed by THX TSP/SBX Pro Surround from a positioning standpoint.

And you are right indeed

I've known about OpenAL routing for a while now, ever since learning about Rapture3D.

I just haven't taken the time to experiment with the available options. Rapture3D User edition costs money, OpenAL Soft with HRTF is a bit of a pain to set up, X-Fi MB3 also costs money and Creative's apparently got some nasty DRM with limited activations tied to it...

mirh wrote:

NamelessPlayer wrote:

Granted, this is coming from the guy whose retrogaming PC build has THREE sound cards crammed in it, one of them being an X-Fi Prelude for XP and another being a TB Montego II (any Aureal Vortex2 card would suffice, really) for 98SE. Stuff like this is what I have to go through to hear the majority of pre-2007 games as they were intended because the software DirectSound fallback just sounds terrible.

I really really really envy you. Does that card even support A3D 3.0? If so, hats off.

As I understand it, all AU8830 Vortex 2 cards (and only that chipset) support A3D 3.0 as well as 2.0.

I don't think it made use of that DSP Aureal was offering on the rare SQ3500 Turbo (basically an SQ2500 with a DSP daughterboard slapped on).

If you're at all curious, the third card in said system is a SB AWE64 Gold for DOS games. I'd replace it with my AWE32 CT2760...except the current case I'm using can't fit that behemoth. Too many modern cases have hard drive cages and stuff in the way of that seventh expansion slot.

mirh wrote:

Damn it. This is probably the only thing I regret my Xonar DX lack compared to soundblasters. Even though I still see lots of p […]
Show full quote

NamelessPlayer wrote:

Too bad modern games have effectively handicapped themselves to two-dimensional 7.1 speaker systems with no sense of height these days; I kinda miss OpenAL, though I'll miss it a lot less if this second wave of VR makes HRTF mixing a standard feature in games.

Damn it. This is probably the only thing I regret my Xonar DX lack compared to soundblasters.
Even though I still see lots of people around there debating whether dolby headphone can hold a candle to them or not.

(I greatly encourage you to check the link above and review the openAL alternative "drivers")

Dolby Headphone vs. CMSS-3D Headphone vs. THX/SBX Surround is ultimately a matter of preference, though all sound way better than plain stereo to my ears.

I'll get around to the OpenAL routing tests one of these days, but don't hold your breath.

mirh wrote:

Imo, the only thing that headphones won't probably ever return is that deep bass wave that shakes your bones which only a big subwoofer can produce
For proper spatialisation (especially if the game has weak or no HRTF functions) 7.1 surround downmix (and eventually CMSS-3D or D-HP) greatly helps

I've thought for a while about running a subwoofer in tandem with good headphones just to get around that. I'm not the only one, either; I've stumbled upon forum posts here and there to the same effect.

But I'd rather not upset everybody else in the house and all the neighbors in the process.

Also note that my main computer room is crowded and full of desks, tables, etc. Not ideal for a surround speaker setup in the slightest, and the acoustics are probably terrible for something like that, too. You gotta build an entire theater room with acoustics in mind when doing surround speaker setups to get it right, and that's already cost-prohibitive even before decking the place out with speakers and amps.

NamelessPlayer wrote:

mirh wrote:

NamelessPlayer wrote:

I still swear by my X-Fi Titanium HD and CMSS-3D Headphone for the time being.

Creative's software OpenAL renderer (used on their USB devices, X-Fi MB, all Sound Core3D products) doesn't seem quite as effective as hardware OpenAL on the X-Fi lineup, and I wasn't exactly impressed by THX TSP/SBX Pro Surround from a positioning standpoint.

And you are right indeed

I've known about OpenAL routing for a while now, ever since learning about Rapture3D.

I just haven't taken the time to experiment with the available options. Rapture3D User edition costs money, OpenAL Soft with HRTF is a bit of a pain to set up, X-Fi MB3 also costs money and Creative's apparently got some nasty DRM with limited activations tied to it...

X-fi mb3 is not an openal replacement. It just Creative's way to say: well, after all those years bossing we lose the battle, and allow to enable EAX with common motherboards. More here (and nasty DRM is not invincible if you are worried)

NamelessPlayer wrote:

I've thought for a while about running a subwoofer in tandem with good headphones just to get around that. I'm not the only one, […]
Show full quote

mirh wrote:

Imo, the only thing that headphones won't probably ever return is that deep bass wave that shakes your bones which only a big subwoofer can produce
For proper spatialisation (especially if the game has weak or no HRTF functions) 7.1 surround downmix (and eventually CMSS-3D or D-HP) greatly helps

I've thought for a while about running a subwoofer in tandem with good headphones just to get around that. I'm not the only one, either; I've stumbled upon forum posts here and there to the same effect.

But I'd rather not upset everybody else in the house and all the neighbors in the process.

Also note that my main computer room is crowded and full of desks, tables, etc. Not ideal for a surround speaker setup in the slightest, and the acoustics are probably terrible for something like that, too. You gotta build an entire theater room with acoustics in mind when doing surround speaker setups to get it right, and that's already cost-prohibitive even before decking the place out with speakers and amps.

This seems a damn mindblowing idea.
Even if my room is pretty much the same of yours 🤣

mirh wrote:

X-fi mb3 is not an openal replacement. It just Creative's way to say: well, after all those years bossing we lose the battle, and allow to enable EAX with common motherboards. More here (and nasty DRM is not invincible if you are worried)

Never really said it was a replacement (especially for aforementioned software vs. hardware OpenAL rendering reasons), just thinking along the lines of software OpenAL implementations at the time, and the X-Fi MB3 package they sell, as I understand it, implements all the software features of the Sound Core3D cards (because they're software to begin with) and maps it all to a virtual output device ala Razer Surround or Virtual Audio Cable. It's like having a Sound Blaster Z card (or an SB Omni) without actually having one!

That's the one thing all those modded Realtek driver packages don't do, and in theory, that should enable it to work with any output device, be it other integrated audio codecs or even a USB DAC with no gaming DSP audio features in its drivers/software whatsoever.

But $30 is still a tough sell for that sort of thing, especially if they limit the activations. They don't even offer any sort of trial period for testing, either. Creative sure knows how to NOT sell products...

I own MB3. I ran out of activations and requested a new serial. I got one no questions asked. That's less nonsense than game activations.

It is decent software. I use it on my notebook where I can't plug in an Audigy or XFi. I suppose you could buy one of their cheap USB devices as an alternative though.

I,m running my soundcard,a x-fi extreme music trough a samsung hi-fi system,on the aux option,then i connect my headphones to the hi-fi system.
If i do this will the 3d sound from the soundcard be affected?or will it come out unafected same as plugin the headphones into the souncard?

HighTreason wrote:

These days dedicated sound cards are useless as the operating system no longer supports advanced features such as real-time pass-through of Mic/Line inputs, you can only record from one input at a time and the Stereo Mix is gone.

I am still a user of XP, and I am appalled when I hear how modern OSes is crippling the audio subsystem in Windows NT 6. No MIDI configuration? Poor reliability and performance? Impossible or difficult to record the stereo out mix for applications like screen capture? The quality of audio codecs has indeed increased with the release of Azalia/HDA, but accesibility of their features is getting hidden beneath Microsoft's generously provided abstraction layers, all there to increase system stability, and root in planned obsolescence and DRM and other evil things like that.

A good sound card performs its essential function of serving as an interface between analog sound generators and computer software in the most straightforward and transparent manner possible. I am the user of an E-MU 0404 sound cards. They do exactly what I have configured them to. The card is set to work at a given sampling rate, either internally generated or locked to another device. Inputs are routed and mixed in to outputs. That's it. "Windows" is just a small set of channels alongside ASIO and physical ports. The driver provides control over the card on a lower level, enabling to "reset" the Windows ports without reboot, or to capture and reroute their data for recording or processing with effects.

All this didn't allow the drivers to receive a Windows Hardware Quality Labs approved signature. I'm not sure what happened to the E-MU subdivision of the horrible company that is Creative Labs.

Bloated control panels of Realtek devices don't offer nearly as much control. And they're over 100 MB these days. I've seen useless 'bathroom' reverb in there, at the same time when the native mixer lacked clear marking for 0 dB and an option to snap to it.

The cards have no gaming-specific functions apart from basic DirectSound. And because they are low latency devices, they have trouble staying locked to sampling rates lower than 16 or so kHz (which hardly any Windows game outputs).

NamelessPlayer wrote:

Never really said it was a replacement (especially for aforementioned software vs. hardware OpenAL rendering reasons), just thin […]
Show full quote

mirh wrote:

X-fi mb3 is not an openal replacement. It just Creative's way to say: well, after all those years bossing we lose the battle, and allow to enable EAX with common motherboards. More here (and nasty DRM is not invincible if you are worried)

Never really said it was a replacement (especially for aforementioned software vs. hardware OpenAL rendering reasons), just thinking along the lines of software OpenAL implementations at the time, and the X-Fi MB3 package they sell, as I understand it, implements all the software features of the Sound Core3D cards (because they're software to begin with) and maps it all to a virtual output device ala Razer Surround or Virtual Audio Cable. It's like having a Sound Blaster Z card (or an SB Omni) without actually having one!

That's the one thing all those modded Realtek driver packages don't do, and in theory, that should enable it to work with any output device, be it other integrated audio codecs or even a USB DAC with no gaming DSP audio features in its drivers/software whatsoever.

But $30 is still a tough sell for that sort of thing, especially if they limit the activations. They don't even offer any sort of trial period for testing, either. Creative sure knows how to NOT sell products...

Wait wait wait.
The problem with OpenAL it's not the software/hardware thing. The problem is that Generic Software provider is "problematic". It's not like it couldn't do all the effects, but of course Creative limited it to "increase performance" (yeah, sure.. multi core CPU? somebody?)

You then have "Generic Hardware" and "Native implementations" (did you see my link?)
The first translates everything to DS3D while the second is allegedly the best choice (even though I couldn't say what are the practical differences).
My Xonar DX for example as just the later though (but of course, that's a dedicated card)

Back to the software-only matter I believe OpenAL soft was created exactly to replace official drivers and remove the artificial restrictions. With some games I guess the result could be as much nice as official one (if not even better)... but of course I don't think that in, say, Bioshock EAX effects are going to sound well

Said this there is a trial for X-FI MB. My theory is that a native device is added, but I wouldn't mind somebody either confirming or denying my supposition.
If this doesn't work (iirc it did even with non-Gigabyte motherboards) check the custom drivers. And when I say it's available there, trust me I tried them. Maybe not last version, but DRM -which has been defeated- is still probably the same. Upgrading from MB1 or MB2 to latest version should be possible

j7n wrote:

HighTreason wrote:

These days dedicated sound cards are useless as the operating system no longer supports advanced features such as real-time pass-through of Mic/Line inputs, you can only record from one input at a time and the Stereo Mix is gone.

I am still a user of XP, and I am appalled when I hear how modern OSes is crippling the audio subsystem in Windows NT 6. No MIDI configuration? Poor reliability and performance?

Is the lack of the configuration so problematic? It's not like they removed MIDI itself. It's probably an hassle, but workarounds for those selected people that need it are available.

And for the love of god. Are you really claiming 7 is less stable than XP? The only really universally annoying thing is the lack of hardware buffers for DirectSound, which as we know can be somewhat fixed.

j7n wrote:

Impossible or difficult to record the stereo out mix for applications like screen capture? The quality of audio codecs has indeed increased with the release of Azalia/HDA, but accesibility of their features is getting hidden beneath Microsoft's generously provided abstraction layers, all there to increase system stability, and root in planned obsolescence and DRM and other evil things like that.

Really? There's an API in windows itself to record audio (since Vista I mean). 8 channel raw PCM can be recorded without any particular knowledge (along with usual 3d party utilities).
And what is this planned obsolescence and DRM thing conspiracy about? I can even record Spotify musics with windows built-in Sound Recorder.

j7n wrote:

All this didn't allow the drivers to receive a Windows Hardware Quality Labs approved signature. I'm not sure what happened to the E-MU subdivision of the horrible company that is Creative Labs.

Creative labs is certainly a very very very horrible company (that's why I won't ever buy something from them, not even 3D cameras) but you have wrong ideas about drivers.
WHQL is not required for drivers. You only need it to remove the "do you want to install this driver" warning.
Digital sign is another thing though, even though it's mandatory only on 64 bit systems (even if this can be fixed)

j7n wrote:

The cards have no gaming-specific functions apart from basic DirectSound. And because they are low latency devices, they have trouble staying locked to sampling rates lower than 16 or so kHz (which hardly any Windows game outputs).

Oh, this is something I didn't know. What games uses less than 16KHz audio though?

I am still a user of XP, and I am appalled when I hear how modern OSes is crippling the audio subsystem in Windows NT 6. No MIDI configuration? Poor reliability and performance? Impossible or difficult to record the stereo out mix for applications like screen capture? The quality of audio codecs has indeed increased with the release of Azalia/HDA, but accesibility of their features is getting hidden beneath Microsoft's generously provided abstraction layers, all there to increase system stability, and root in planned obsolescence and DRM and other evil things like that.

Its true there is no MIDI configuration. But the built in system isn't that bad.
What reliability problem?

At least with the onboard realtek, the "stereo mix" recording works fine.

Bloated control panels of Realtek devices don't offer nearly as much control. And they're over 100 MB these days. I've seen useless 'bathroom' reverb in there, at the same time when the native mixer lacked clear marking for 0 dB and an option to snap to it.

That's pretty much ALL software today

I agree - Windows Vista and beyond were a substantial improvement moving forwards for sound. Sure it broke EAX and some other stuff (all of which has generally been added via new abstraction layers, wrappers, emulators, etc), but you aren't selling me on the "XP forever and ever" bit. 😊 Microsoft didn't "cripple" anything for some sort of "evil planned obsolescence" - they just forced third-party hardware/software developers to get on the same page, and work with a common set of updated rules. And that's where you see lots of things "breaking" because a lot of developers find it easier to cry about how evil and bad Microsoft is than to actually fix their code. 😵

j7n wrote:

Poor reliability and performance?

Please don't take DracoNihil's problems as "proof" that Windows 7 has unfixable endemic problems with its audio - if you read any of the threads posted by that user you will consistently see many (if not all) posters who respond cite they do not experience any of the problems that DracoNihil has, and the issue is likely rooted in something about DracoNihil's configuration or usage scenario that is relatively unique (and as far as I know has yet to be fully troubleshot). 😊

Recording audio, using modern software (from 2006 or later), modern games, etc within Windows 7 is perfectly fine. The only thing that's "broken" is support for various legacy schema, and as has been pointed out in this thread and others, a lot of that stuff has been addressed in the last ~8 years with wrappers, emulators, patches, etc. This is very often felt with games, and just like there are games that break various functionality (including audio) in XP but worked in older versions of Windows, there will be titles that break in Windows 7 but worked in older versions of Windows (like XP). This doesn't mean that Windows 7 should be condemned. 😵

Evert wrote:

The problem with modern audio is that it's very subjective. Onboard audio has come a long way since the AC97 days and I would say that it is almost good enough for 99% of applications. If you produce or record music, then I would say that you have a very strong case for buying a discrete sound card. If you're a very competetive gamer, then I suppose buying a dedicated NIC and Soundcard to provide some off-load to the CPU will probably give you 1-2 frames per second extra. There are some things you need to take note of. No matter what sound card you are using, the internal HD audio header cable will act as an antenna and pick up EMF radiation which will distort the sound that comes out of the jack in the front of your case. The best advice is to try for yourself. I personally prefer my external USB DAC and amplifier.

I've had problems with front panel audio distortion myself. Is there a good way to deal with this, by say shielding the cable?

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:

I've had problems with front panel audio distortion myself. Is there a good way to deal with this, by say shielding the cable?

You can try re-routing the cable, shielding the cable, clipping ferrite on the cable, etc. It may or may not solve your problem depending on what is exactly bringing in the distortion/interference. For example if the cable is internally wired badly or terminated badly, adding shielding won't help. Of course the connector on the MB may also be the problem (if *it* was wired badly), even if the rear connectors are fine.

obobskivich wrote:

Recording audio, using modern software (from 2006 or later), modern games, etc within Windows 7 is perfectly fine. The only thing that's "broken" is support for various legacy schema, and as has been pointed out in this thread and others, a lot of that stuff has been addressed in the last ~8 years with wrappers, emulators, patches, etc. This is very often felt with games, and just like there are games that break various functionality (including audio) in XP but worked in older versions of Windows, there will be titles that break in Windows 7 but worked in older versions of Windows (like XP). This doesn't mean that Windows 7 should be condemned. 😵

Even because since the dawn of times, men started to create fixes for broken things 😎

At the end of the day, my problems with Win 7 stem from the fact that as far as I am concerned, the OS is supposed to be flexible and work for me, not the other way around; I should not have to go out of my way to work around the OS when it's an apparent upgrade.

That and every time I install it I end up with corrupted hard drives.

The main reason they crippled the audio? Probably DRM. It was probably done to make it difficult for people to make analog holes.

You end up with corrupted hard drives? 😒 You may have other problems besides OS choice.