VOGONS


First post, by bjt

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I recently bought a CT3980 (AWE32 Plug n Play) and have a few issues with it, I was wondering if any other CT3980 owners had seen these.
This card replaces an AWE64 which was working 100% with the same resource settings in the same machine, so I can rule out any conflicts with other hardware.

I believe this is the first PnP AWE32. CTCM says it has initialised the card correctly, but there are two signs that things aren't working 100%:
- In CTCU, the resources check fails for both IRQ and DMA.
- In diagnose.exe, assigning the IRQ and DMA fails.

Despite this, the card seems to work (outputs digital sound, FM and AWE music) in the following games:
Duke Nukem 3D
Wolfenstein 3D
Quake
Tyrian

It also outputs digital sound in Win98, although it's identified as a SB16 in device manager.

However, It doesn't output digital sound in Doom engine games (Doom/Doom2/Hexen etc). 😢

Has anyone else seem this behaviour with CT3980?
Could this be speed related, causing the Doom SB init code to fail? Machine is a K6-3 400. Doom etc worked fine with the AWE64.
Is CTCM the right tool to use to initialise this early PnP card? What about CTPNP.EXE or the old Intel Pnp Config Manager?

Reply 1 of 13, by bjt

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I should also mention that I'm using the latest AWE64/32 drivers, DOS tools etc.
From reading around it seems that the CT3980 was shipped with the Intel Configuration Manager to handle the PnP side of things.
Don't really want to use this unless it's necessary, are other CT3980 owners able to init their cards fully and pass all tests using CTCM & diagnose.exe?

Reply 3 of 13, by bjt

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BIOS config is the same as it was with the AWE64

PnP OS = Yes
All IRQs/DMAs are set to unreserved i.e. available to PnP

Can you confirm if you used CTCM to initialise this card or something else? Cheers

Reply 4 of 13, by Marmes

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with that card, I allways ran Dos stuff, exiting win98 or by opening a dosbox. But I also saw this topic about that card.
Bypassing AWE32's Configuration Manager Detection Routine to Proceed Installation?
Grab these as well http://us.creative.com/support/downloads/down … e=DOS&details=1
That card is the real plug and pray.
Worked fine in games. But I just couldn't manage the confusion. That's why I decided to sell, hopping that someone more used to this card bought and use it as it is supposed to.

Reply 5 of 13, by keropi

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bjt, did you check Phill's video here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaf4lWI2TEk
does it help?

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Reply 6 of 13, by jesolo

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I bought the same card last year and also swopped it out with my AWE64 on the same PC.
Recall experiencing a similar problem.

If you're running Windows 98, it means that your DOS version is 7.1
If this is the case, then CTCU isn't required since your configuration settings are stored in the ctpnp.cfg file in your C:\Windows directory.

What you must do is to just boot up in Windows 98 and let Windows "re-configure" you ctpnp.cfg file.
Also check in Device Manager what are the settings Windows has it configured as (IRQ, DMA, etc.) - the default settings are IRQ5, DMA1 & DMA5, Base Port 220.
Restart into MS-DOS mode and then run Diagnose and make sure you select the same settings as what is in your ctpnp.cfg file - otherwise, it will fail.
Also make sure that your Autoexec.bat (or, if you restart straight out of Windows 98 into MS-DOS mode, your Dosstart.bat) "Set Blaster" settings corresponds to what is configured in your ctpnp.cfg file.

You do require CTCM as this is what will initialise your card in "real" DOS mode (not DOS command prompt) but, you do not need to load CTCU.
When you start up in "real" DOS mode, CTCM will then read the ctpnp.cfg file to initialise your card.

If you still get stuck, dump your Autoexec.bat & Config.sys files and paste here.

PS: In simple terms, an AWE32, SB32 or AWE64 is nothing more than a Sound Blaster 16 with the EMU8000 chipset added on the card. Hence, why Windows "sees" the DAC (the digital part) as a SB16.

Reply 7 of 13, by PhilsComputerLab

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jesolo post is very helpful.

I believe the issues lies with having swapped the card, but leaving the drivers from the previous card.

Personally I would start fresh, but jesolo is a neater solution 😀

I also note that the amount of Windows 98 / DOS Mode trouble shooting threads are popping up all the time. There is confusion, but once you understand that Windows manages the resources, and not DOS (and that's why Creative blocked CTCU from running on MS-DOS 7.1), it makes a bit more sense.

So on my Pentium 100, I change the resources in Device Manager. Then shut down into MS-DOS mode. Run diagnose, and that sets everything up. Remember to turn the PC off and on after each resource change, sometimes it doesn't work otherwise.

If you just stick with MS-DOS 6.22 things are easier. But even here, when I swap a card, I deltree SB16, CTCM, clean config and autoexec and run SBBASIC setup again.

PS: If this is your machine with 5 sound cards in it, my reply is: Sorry mate this is not supported 🤣

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Reply 8 of 13, by jesolo

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Would just like to add the following:
Make sure that your ctpnp.cfg file is not read-only for some obscure reason (otherwise, Windows can't update the settings).
Also, if memory serves correct, you can manually edit your ctpnp.cfg file and actually specify different settings for DOS than what is configured under Windows (which would then require you to make the file read-only) but, I would stick with the default settings.

Reply 9 of 13, by Jolaes76

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I only have CT3900s, no CT3980s but I think they behave the same "praywise".

Unfortunately, ISA PnP and PCI PnP are apples and oranges. You cannot really trust CTCM alone to set the required/optimal reasources.
In my experience, with ancient ISA PnP cards CMOS settings are better left at "No PnP OS installed" because in many cases it is a pre-requisite for the Manual Resource Config menu to appear. Then You reserve those resources for Legacy ISA/PnP that later will be set by CTCM. ( IRQ 5, DMA 1, DMA 5 are the default)

This way I have never had resource issues with my dual boot K6-III+ machine (pure DOS 7.1 and Win98SE2ME, CT3900). Then again, as said before, a bare system with the CT3980 as a single sound card is the best for starting to eliminate the problem. Especially no NIC, SCSI devices etc. in the rig.

"Ita in vita ut in lusu alae pessima iactura arte corrigenda est."

Reply 10 of 13, by dr_st

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The more I read about these things the more I consider myself lucky to have avoided all this pain with my Creative cards... The only ones I used (CT2940 SB16 and CT4500 AWE64) seemed to be fully PnP-compliant, and never needed anything more than CTCM (and AWEUTIL /S for the AWE64) in AUTOEXEC.BAT to initialize.

Now I have to wonder whether the issues I had with the CT4520 (reported here) are not because the card is defective, but because it needed a different initialization scheme. Are issues such as the reported here caused by the cards themselves, or by other hardware (motherboard / BIOS / legacy cards)?

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Reply 11 of 13, by bjt

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Thanks all, for the advice. As several of you have suggested I have ditched CTCU and set up the card resources correctly in Windows.

I spent a little more time playing with this and came to the following conclusions. I am now thinking that this is a card detection problem, or a problem with a particular 8-bit playback mode, rather than anything specific to PnP or resources.

- The card behaves the same regardless of whether I'm in a Windows DOS box, in Windows MS-DOS mode or booted directly to DOS 7.1.
- The card behaves the same regardless of BIOS settings (PnP OS Yes/No, reserving IRQ and DMA in the BIOS makes no difference).
- The card behaves the same regardless of CPU speed.
- There are no other ISA cards in the system.

The good:

- In MS-DOS mode and pure DOS, CTCM works fine and allocates the correct resources, using WINDOWS\CTPNP.CFG.
- Mixerset works fine
- Tested Wave, OPL and AWE Synth, all work fine in Windows and DOS
- All the games I have tried work fine, apart from those listed below

The bad:

- Diagnose.exe fails at the IRQ selection stage
- Doom engine games don't detect the card and don't output wave sound, music works OK though. They give a "card not responding" message on startup.
- In games that support allow selection between 8 and 16-bit mixing, only 16-bit mixing works. 8-bit mixing gives a "playback failed" message. For example: Duke3D and other Build engine games.

Old games that use SB/SB Pro 8-bit playback work fine, so the problem seems confined to a particular 8-bit playback mode.
(8-bit Stereo PCM Auto-Initialise)?

Reply 12 of 13, by jesolo

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8-bit playback is usually linked to your "low" DMA channel, which is normally DMA channel 1.
Just make sure that the settings in ctpnp.cfg (and Windows) has DMA 1 selected and that your Autoexec.bat "Set Blaster" environment variable matches this as well.

If this all checks out, then it's possible you have another device in your PC that might be utilising DMA channel 1.

Having said that, if it fails at IRQ selection stage, what IRQ have you got set up? 5 or 7?
Check your BIOS. It might be conflicting with your printer (LPT1) port if it has the same IRQ selected.
Suggest your disable your LPT1 port and see what happens.

Reply 13 of 13, by bjt

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Current settings are port 220, IRQ 5, DMA 1, High DMA 5. All standard stuff and the same as when I was using AWE64.
BLASTER variable and CTPNP.CFG/Windows all match.

Old games are fine using IRQ 5/DMA 1.
New games with 16-bit sound are fine using IRQ 5/DMA 1/High DMA 5.
LPT1 is on IRQ 7.

So I don't believe it's a resource problem.

It's some games that use 8-bit auto-init DMA that have a problem (and diagnose).