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Help with Pentium MMX build

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First post, by jheronimus

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Hi!

I want to build a Pentium 233 MMX machine for late DOS and Win95 gaming. I plan to play a lot of stuff that was released in the early 90s, but mostly I'm interested in adventures (Lucas, Sierra, Bladerunner and FMV stuff like Spycraft), space sims, some FPS and some RPG like Ultima or Eye of the Beholder.

I live in Russia, so ordering from eBay is not an option (not everyone ships here, and it would cost a lot), but we have our own version of it, so I just need some tips with my research. The basic config I'm about to buy:

- Pentium MMX 233;
- AOpen AP5T v3.4 motherboard. It says Intel 430TX chipset here, but I'm not sure it's the v3.4. Here is the photo from the seller;

1475589307.jpg

- 64 MB SDRAM;
- Sound Blaster AWE32;
- S3 Trio 64;
- Vodoo 2;

Questions

1) Case:

- I want a tower case with a turbo button — as far as I understand, games like Wing Commander may not run properly on a full speed Pentium. I've read somewhere around here that not all Socket 7 motherboards support this feature — is that true?
- AOpen AP5T is a babyAT mobo. Most sellers offer noname cases with no specs. Is it safe to assume that any case with a turbo button can hold a baby AT?
- I was also thinking about a horizontal desktop case, so that I could put a monitor on top of it. I know it's not an exact science, but what is the biggest monitor you would put on top of your PC? Not sure about 30KG 22" behemoths of late 90s...

2) Monitor:

- With the games I want to play, is there any point in getting a curved 14 inch CRT with knobs as opposed to a late 90s model with flat screen, 1600x1200 85Hz support? I know that 14 CRT can smooth out pixelated graphics — would, say, Secrets of Monkey Island look worse on a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2070SB? Consequently, would games like Quake 2 or FMV quests look horrible on a curved 14 inch screen?

3) SDRAM:

- Is there something I should look out for here? Is there any benefit to using several modules as opposed to one? I know it's single channel, but still.

4) HDD:

- what kind of HDD should I look for? How big can I go? I want to have a multiboot MS DOS 6.22 and Win95, but if it will limit my max HDD size, I can stick with Win95;
- same goes for CD-ROM — is there any compatibility issues I could run into?

4) Sound:

- is any AWE32 a good pick? PnP models, for instance?
- I want a somewhat proper period speaker set that still sounds nice in case I ever get my hands on a MT-32. Currently I'm looking at Cambridge Soundworks CSW100 — I know they are a bit too modern (about 1999, AFAIK), but they look the part.

1_1_4041032.jpg

Any suggestions here? Also, if someone would explain to me how people used to place 5.1 speakers like DTT2500 around a PC, I'd be eternally grateful. Did they glue the rear satellites to their chair? 😀

5) Mouse and keyboard:

- I was thinking of the original Microsoft Intellimouse (I distinctly remember totally hating ball mice and mouse pads), but I'm not sure about the keyboard. I know that Model M is all the rage, but it would cost nearly the same as the whole setup and it would need a lot of space. Besides, it's not really time-appropriate. Is there an interesting mid-90s keyboard that stands out?

Thanks a lot for any help!

P.S.: to all those who told me to get an OEM build — unfortunately, looks like Pentium MMX options are really rare on the local market, I would have to go at least PII then.

Last edited by jheronimus on 2015-12-11, 23:30. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 1 of 20, by alexanrs

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Case:
Most S7/SS7 motherboards I've seen do not have a header for a Turbo button. You can still do some creative wiring to use the button to manipulate the FSB clock and the multiplier, but it will only go down to a certain extent. Disabling L1 and/or L2 cache will help you get to 386 speed grades.
Also, if it has a Turbo button, AFAIK it should be able to hold a baby AT motheboard. Also, I'd stick to 15" or 17" max on top of a thick desktop case.

SDRAM:
Some chipsets might not like high-density SDRAM... For that MMX board you can just get a few 32MB DIMMs and be happy. If you are using 72-pin SIMMs instead you can probably use anything you can find. S7/SS7 was the last platform to support those, so it should be able to handle any 72-pin SIMM you can throw at it.

HDD:
For DOS/Win95 non OSR2? Anything 8 GB and below. Many HDDs between 8 GB and 32 GB had a jumper to limit it to 8 GB. If you wanna go higher, you'll need the later versions of Windows 95 or Windows 98. Also, there is almost no need to have DOS 6.xx and Win9x in the same machine.

Sound:
Probably the hardest part of building a DOS machine is picking a sound card, simply because the is no one card to conquer all. If you value OPL3, then beware the model of AWE32 you get. If not, just get an AWE64 instead, or an CT3670 SB32, as that uses an AWE64 chip but has a 30-pin SIMM slot instead of needing Creative's proprietary memory module or SIMMCONs to expand its memory, That way you sidestep the whole hanging note bug fiasco.

Reply 2 of 20, by jheronimus

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alexanrs wrote:

Case:
Most S7/SS7 motherboards I've seen do not have a header for a Turbo button.

Could you tell from the picture I've posted if it does? I think I'm about to get this motherboard soon, since there doesn't seem to be a lot of S7 models on the market for some reason, and this one is $3.

alexanrs wrote:

HDD:
For DOS/Win95 non OSR2? Anything 8 GB and below. Many HDDs between 8 GB and 32 GB had a jumper to limit it to 8 GB. If you wanna go higher, you'll need the later versions of Windows 95 or Windows 98. Also, there is almost no need to have DOS 6.xx and Win9x in the same machine.

Would be 32GB for Win95 OSR2, right? Also, how many harddrives would a case like this hold? Is there a name for this exact tower size, btw?

IMG_4862_zps7a36c8e6.jpg

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Reply 3 of 20, by alexanrs

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Windows 95 OSR2 can handle more than 32GB AFAIK, but then you risk bumping into BIOS limitations. 32GB should be more than enough for this class of machine anyway.
About the case, it's just a baby AT mini tower. It should probably hold at least two HDDs (assuming you only mount one 3.25" floppy drive. Nice case, by the way =)

Reply 6 of 20, by Robin4

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1) Case:

- I want a tower case with a turbo button — as far as I understand, games like Wing Commander may not run properly on a full speed Pentium. I've read somewhere around here that not all Socket 7 motherboards support this feature — is that true?
- AOpen AP5T is a babyAT mobo. Most sellers offer noname cases with no specs. Is it safe to assume that any case with a turbo button can hold a baby AT?
- I was also thinking about a horizontal desktop case, so that I could put a monitor on top of it. I know it's not an exact science, but what is the biggest monitor you would put on top of your PC? Not sure about 30KG 22" behemoths of late 90s...

A case with a turbo button i wouldnt take.. Most of the later Pentium socket 7 motherboard doesnt have the jumpers anymore for the turbo button or jumper for the turbo led.. Better is to look for an earlier pentium motherboard and go for an pentium 166 MMX. Or just scrap the idea of the turbo led and button.

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Reply 8 of 20, by Tetrium

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The TX chipset should be able to work with single sided 64MB DIMMs, it's the VX that had problems with higher density DIMMs.

64MB is the max cacheable amount of RAM for that board. Only way around it is to get the K6-III of one of AMD's K6-2/K6-III mobiles (good chance the latter ones will be an ache to get working for your board, the former is less common afaik and it's higher energy consumption and lower voltage may put the board under a lot of stress).

I don't know about horizontal (desktop) cases, as I prefer towers. The towers should all be able to hold your board.
Just be sure you also get some of those (usually white) plastic standoff thingies as most AT towers didn't use metal standoffs for all the mobo mounting holes.

The HDD support is mostly a function of the boards BIOS, there was a website by Jan Steunebrink which had tons of modded BIOSes which iirc often included support for larger harddrives.

Concerning mouse and keyboard, I'd suggest to avoid USB. A more modern PS/2 keyboard has never given me any problems with the large keyboard connector that is commonly used on AT boards.

You will need some extra brackets for your mouse and other ports (like printer port) to connect the ports from the back of the PC to the motherboard (often these had ribbon cabled) and not all are wired the same way.

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Reply 9 of 20, by gdjacobs

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This TX board is included in his unofficial BIOS list and includes the LBA patch.
http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/J.Steunebrink/k6plus.htm

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Reply 10 of 20, by jheronimus

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Robin4 wrote:

A case with a turbo button i wouldnt take.. Most of the later Pentium socket 7 motherboard doesnt have the jumpers anymore for the turbo button or jumper for the turbo led.. Better is to look for an earlier pentium motherboard and go for an pentium 166 MMX. Or just scrap the idea of the turbo led and button.

But 166 MMX is also socket 7, isn't it?

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Reply 11 of 20, by mmx_91

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jheronimus wrote:

But 166 MMX is also socket 7, isn't it?

Yes it is. You can use purely socket 7 motherboards (66Mhz FSB max, sometimes 83MHz), or jump to super socket 7. The main advantage is that you gain an AGP slot, but for your purposes with this computer I'd stay with socket 7.

Reply 12 of 20, by PCBONEZ

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Tetrium wrote:

The TX chipset should be able to work with single sided 64MB DIMMs, it's the VX that had problems with higher density DIMMs.

"Sides" and density are not actually related.
Intel's tech doc for the TX chipset says that while it supports high density SDRAM modules (those with x4 devices(chips)), they are not recommended due to circuit loading considerations. ( See the note.)
http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/dat … ts/29055901.pdf

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Last edited by PCBONEZ on 2015-12-12, 18:27. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 13 of 20, by PCBONEZ

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I highly recommend finding a 7200RPM hard drive. The difference is noticeable.
If you aren't going to go with 7200RPM I recommend not getting anything slower than 5400RPM. The difference is noticeable that way too.

Most old horizontal cases were made with "real metal" and will support about any monitor you'd want to use. (err, that I'd want to use.)
If you run into problems that way a piece of 3/4" wood (like wide shelf material) that fully reaches from side to side should take care of it.

USB Keyboards and socket 7 (and for that matter socket 370) usually didn't work and play well together.
I would not choose a USB Mouse either.
.

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Reply 14 of 20, by Tetrium

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PCBONEZ wrote:
Tetrium wrote:

The TX chipset should be able to work with single sided 64MB DIMMs, it's the VX that had problems with higher density DIMMs.

"Sides" and density are not actually related.

This is correct (and I was actually considering adding part of what you mentioned about single/double sided DIMMs, but decided not to), but I was referring to the 64MB modules jheronimus mentioned having laying around, though from hindsight it was probably not needed to suggestively mention these modules are almost always single sided.

PCBONEZ wrote:
Intel's tech doc for the TX chipset says that while it supports high density SDRAM modules (those with x4 devices(chips)), they […]
Show full quote
Tetrium wrote:

The TX chipset should be able to work with single sided 64MB DIMMs, it's the VX that had problems with higher density DIMMs.

Intel's tech doc for the TX chipset says that while it supports high density SDRAM modules (those with x4 devices(chips)), they are not recommended due to circuit loading considerations. ( See the note.)
http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/dat … ts/29055901.pdf

430TX_SDRAM.jpg

I wonder if this could result in hardware damage and in time, failure? Or would this only cause instability?
I never heard of this issue actually being a problem in any pc though.

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Reply 15 of 20, by PCBONEZ

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Tetrium wrote:
PCBONEZ wrote:
Intel's tech doc for the TX chipset says that while it supports high density SDRAM modules (those with x4 devices(chips)), they […]
Show full quote
Tetrium wrote:

The TX chipset should be able to work with single sided 64MB DIMMs, it's the VX that had problems with higher density DIMMs.

Intel's tech doc for the TX chipset says that while it supports high density SDRAM modules (those with x4 devices(chips)), they are not recommended due to circuit loading considerations. ( See the note.)
http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/dat … ts/29055901.pdf

430TX_SDRAM.jpg

I wonder if this could result in hardware damage and in time, failure? Or would this only cause instability?
I never heard of this issue actually being a problem in any pc though.

I don't know for certain what their concern is. This is just my best guess.
When they talk about "loading" that way they are probably meaning current load. So they are talking about hardware damage.
The weakest link I can think of is those tiny human hair sized wires that connect the silicon to the pins inside IC packages.
(Um, the weakest link outside of circuits inside the silicon itself.)
Thus they might be concerned with chipset damage.
.

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Reply 16 of 20, by PCBONEZ

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The board in question does not have turbo button provisions.
If you haven't seen it yet the manual is here: http://www.motherboards.org/mobot/manuals/AOpen/AP5T/
It's an exe file but 7-Zip will extract it into PDFs.

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Reply 17 of 20, by jheronimus

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I realised that building from scratch is shooting myself in the foot, because most components are sold without any accessories. Which means, I'll have to get every single wire, screw and jumper elsewhere.

So I managed to find a working PC for 7 dollars — it has a S3 videocard I wanted and a S7 motherboard, not mention case, PSU, CD-ROM and FDD. Even if I have to replace everything else, it will be much cheaper, not to mention, easier.

There is still a question of a monitor. Will I lose anything by buying a 15-17 inch CRT with flat screen and 85 hertz refresh rate and not going the 14 inch curved monitor? I'm afraid that an authentic 90s screen is more likely to be bleak and worn-out than an early 2000s model.

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Reply 19 of 20, by bristlehog

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alexanrs wrote:

S7/SS7 was the last platform to support those, so it should be able to handle any 72-pin SIMM you can throw at it.

Socket 8 was AFAIK.

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