VOGONS


First post, by keropi

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Hiya!

I recently got a Huyndai Super-386C PC and it came with a ST-251-1 HDD + WD controller - both are items that the PC was sold with, not something extra. The drive spins but I get this error on boot:

qXOwD3Gl.jpg

What could it be? Stuck heads? Can I open it and try to move them or something? I don't know much about MFM HDDs and I don't plan to use it for long, what interests me is the software that is installed on it , maybe there is something good or some special machine specific utility.
This is the drive btw , a huge one 🤣

Fg0e9yzl.jpg

Any help/tips will be appreciated, thanks!

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 1 of 24, by krivulak

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Few ideas..
Is the BIOS set to not have HDDs? What I mean by that is set the drives in BIOS to none.
Second - Is both of the cables plugged in the card correctly?
Third - Is the HDD blinking in some pattern?
Fourth - This harddrive does have autopark, so does it sound like this when starting? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZqogetaBCU

Edit:
The label on the disk seems wrong. Usually MFM controllers does have its own geometry and BIOS can't control it.

Reply 2 of 24, by keropi

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

- BIOS is set to have HDDs , just like the geometry on the label. I found a datasheet on the net and the geometry looks correct
- cables are OK but I have tried them the other way around as well
- I have not looked at a pattern, will check it and report back
- I get the spin up sound and then some other weird sound I can't really describe , but I do not get the heads reading sound at all

I don't know about geometry stuff but if I do not set the BIOS HDD option then the HDD is left out of the boot chain and it's like it does not exist.
Maybe it would be a good idea to also get a pic of the controller, it's a fairly big 16bit one. The setup is back at my office so I can't do anything until tomorrow - I was hoping for an action plan so I have some idea what to do tomorrow with it.

Thanks for the help input!

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 3 of 24, by krivulak

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Ok. When you'll be fiddling with that, please record full spinup and spindown of the harddrive and I will tell you if it is OK.

I am just speaking from my experience with OMTI 5520 controller and Seagate ST-124. I had to disable everything based on IDE in BIOS or it wouldn't let me through. Also, get yourself a copy of SeaTools, really helps a lot. If you can't go through booting, boot this and it will take care of geometry setting - it will detect it and then work with set informations.

Reply 4 of 24, by jesolo

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Your best bet is to reformat the hard drive.
Being and MFM drive with the ST412 interface (i.e., not IDE), you need to low level format the hard drive first (this is only for MFM or RLL drives) - this then "defines" what the disk characteristics are.
Many of these controllers have a built in functionality that allows you to low level format the hard drive and you can use the DOS Debug command for that. Just take note that any data on the hard drive will then, obviously, be permanently wiped.

The attached "hints" text file (from Seagate's own FTP site) explains the correct procedure - refer the Appendix section.

PS: This drive appears to "auto park" itself. So, no need to use a utility to park the hard drive before shut down.
Here is also a link with more info on the drive: https://www.lo-tech.co.uk/wiki/Seagate_ST-251

Attachments

Reply 5 of 24, by Zup

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

The controller card has its own BIOS, so there's no need to define HDDs on your main BIOS.

I guess that the usual boot order (C:, A:) refers to the mainboard devices, maybe you should switch to something like SCSI, C:, A: to start from the HDD controller BIOS but I'm not really sure.

Have you tried to start from a boot floppy disk and check if C: is available? How about using some of that HDD utilities to see if the HDD is recognized? Maybe you don't have a HDD problem, but a boot device problem.

I have traveled across the universe and through the years to find Her.
Sometimes going all the way is just a start...

I'm selling some stuff!

Reply 6 of 24, by keropi

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Well, I don't really want to reformat the drive - I just want to retrieve it's data if possible. I don't see me using it ever beyond that btw 🤣

I had another look on the drive/controller and made a boot video as well - this time with a 286.
- you cannot install the cables the wrong way since they are keyed - labeled on the controller and impossible to reverse them on the drive end.
- the controller is a WD1003V-MM1 like this one

I made a quick video with the boot sounds and led activity: https://youtu.be/8ellXn1t4Sg

So what do you guys think? 😎

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 8 of 24, by Deksor

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Have you tried to run it for a long period of time ?
My 20MB western digital HDD worked intermitently (most of the time it did spin up, but then it stopped. Rarely it kept running. I left it running for hours and now it works perfectly as it doesn't stop 9 times out of 10 ... At least I can read on it. I don't have any XT keyboard so I didn't run any test to see if it was damaged or not)

Trying to identify old hardware ? Visit The retro web - Project's thread The Retro Web project - a stason.org/TH99 alternative

Reply 9 of 24, by keropi

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I have not tried to let it run for a couple of hours, will do that tomorrow 😀
The whole system where the HDD is from was left in storage for a couple of decades.

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 10 of 24, by Predator99

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Dont worry...the sound at the beginning is quite usual, have heard it for years every day 😉 Starting 0:30 it sound not healthy any more, but this can be OK.

DO NOT OPEN THE DRIVE 😉

First idea: Does you board has onboard IDE? This has to be deactivated for sure as it uses the same ports as the MFM controller.
There is no BIOS on the MFM controller, the drives are controlles by the MB Bios. For the MB Bios it doesent matter if there is a MFM or a IDE controller. I remember to had this drive running with a similiar controller in a Pentium motherboard...

So you have to define the drive parameters there. Can you post a screenshot of what is set in the Bios?

Then boot from floppy and try with i.e. Norton Diskedit if you can access the drive and if you can read something...

Reply 11 of 24, by keropi

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

thanks for the suggestions, the motherboard does not have onboard IDE - it's a 286 board. I will post a BIOS shot tomorrow - the parameters on the BIOS are the same as those on the handwritten sticker.
I can boot from floppy but I remember I tried booting with the XT-IDE CF adapter: I got the same error message and then XT-IDE load it's BIOS and booted from the CF.
Will try all that again tomorrow 😀

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 12 of 24, by krivulak

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Yeah, that spinup sound is completely OK, no stuck heads, after seektest it seems like it is trying to access the drive. Sometimes due to lack of automatic thermal head adjustment it needs to warm up to operating temperature before it can read correctly. I won't point at the drive, I would point on controller itself. Try reseating card, cables, sometimes a little bit of oxidation prevents stuff from behaving. If you are sure that is good, we will move on software.

Get yourself a copy of bootable DOS with debug.exe. When you run it, type in

g=c800:5

. It should get into WD Low Level Format tool. Don't format it, it is just for ensuring that the controller is comunicating correctly with system.
Next, download a copy of SeaTools (if you can't find one, I can dig through my mess and try to find one, just tell me) and put it on floppy disk. Boot from it and three posible things will happen. either it will boot and you will see the drive in there, and when you quit the program, you can access the drive as drive C: or D:, either it will boot without seeing the drive, or it will crash because of not enough RAM. Try this and then we can think about something else.

Reply 13 of 24, by Predator99

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Yes the label seems to be correct
820 cylinders
6 heads
17 sectors
= 42 MB

Where is your floppy connected to, your MFM controller does not seem to have a connector?

Boot DOS with the floppy, try to access C: and check if the LED on the HD is flashing - if yes you are almost done. Maybe there are some bad sectors preventing the boot and also DOS from reading the drive.

Reply 14 of 24, by keropi

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Todays report - thanks again for all the suggestions above - I still cannot get this going 🤣

- I left the drive powered for ~2hrs , it's noise changed a bit but it did not help
- I ended up setting up a 386DX40 test machine because old legacy 1.12 text-mode Seatools did not work on the 286 and they do not work on the 386DX as well... I guess it is a new version after all , below you can also see the errors it finds before it crashes:

HH0mGCSl.jpg Xl8XqYjl.jpg

and these are the BIOS settings, B/W is from the 286 , color from the 386DX:

yBfvZSYl.jpg MxnDjujl.jpg

- booting from a floppy and trying to access C: does not work (I use an ISA I/O controller with IDE disabled) , FDISK also cannot access the HDD

wRdcRNcl.jpg

- doing the debug stuff to access the low-level format program does not work either - the machine just stops (not freeze but you can only reboot) . Is it certain that this 16bit controller allows for that? There manual says to use a program on a driver disk (that I don't have) : http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets/37/499115_DS.pdf

I also have an 8bit WD1004A-WXl controller that works with a 21MB HDD , I thought I could test it but I see it does not support anything above 21MB : http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/cpm/Sof … TAL/1004wx1.pdf

I can test again on the 1989 386 Hyundai PC that the combo came from just in case there is some incompatibility with newer BIOS or some voodoo like that...
Ideas? 😀

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 15 of 24, by Predator99

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

BIOS settings seem to be OK, but the drive still is not recognized. Can you try to remove your ISA I/O controller?

If not, I would give the WD1004A-WXl a chance. In the best case you will be able to access the 1st 21mb of the drive...

Reply 16 of 24, by keropi

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

the I/O controller makes no difference whatsoever , I stil get the DRIVE NOT READY error 🙁

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 18 of 24, by keropi

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I can do that tomorrow as I am no longer at the same place as the HDD 😁

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 19 of 24, by Matth79

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Definitely spinning up, and yes, DO NOT OPEN - if you open a drive outside of a top spec cleanroom, say goodbye to it ever working properly again.

That seek bashing sounds off though, maybe it's hunting - but that could be bad drive, bad controller or connection, or the low level format has degraded.

Without controller would be interesting - not sure if those MFM generation drives would hunt for track 0 without... do they have any smarts on the drive at all?