The MPU-401 tech reference has a complete circuit diagram for the MPU-401 breakout box, but some of the ASICs on board would have to be reverse engineered to create a true replacement.

HardMPU or Keropi's Music Quest clone would be the best bet for a direct replacement. Both support intelligent mode MPU functionality without any software compatibility tricks.

gdjacobs wrote:

HardMPU or Keropi's Music Quest clone would be the best bet for a direct replacement. Both support intelligent mode MPU functionality without any software compatibility tricks.

Thank you. 😀 That sounds similar to what I was thinking. Now here is the difficult one: is there a reference anywhere of what sound cards have HardMPU, SoftMPU, etc.? That's a pretty tall order, but I'm hoping there might be a place that at least lists the big players. In the meantime, I'm going to see what I can dig up with Google. Tried earlier, but was busy doing 50 million other things. 🙁 Thanks for the response!

gdjacobs wrote:

HardMPU or Keropi's Music Quest clone would be the best bet for a direct replacement. Both support intelligent mode MPU functionality without any software compatibility tricks.

Also, I've reached out to Kerropi as that looks like it might be along the lines of what I'm looking like. I've asked for some clarification but after digging through a few years of posts about the clone, it looks like a breakout cable right from the card can go into the MT-32. I think. That's what I've asked for some clarification about. 😁 Looks promising though.

SoftMPU is a DOS program which runs in the background and emulates an intelligent midi interface, allowing UART cards to work with games that require an intelligent interface. There is a document which outlines which cards will work. There are limitations as to which games can work with this program due to the use of EMM386.

https://github.com/bjt42/softmpu/wiki/Compatible-Sound-Cards

HardMPU is a recently created board dedicated to be an internal intelligent MIDI interface card. This is effectively SoftMPU running on an ISA card, which bypasses the need for a TSR and EMM386.

To me, the best option, by far, is the card made by Keropi et al. That is a fully hardware solution, including wavetable header, and works with effectively everything. It is basically a new Roland MPU-401AT.

No sound card, other than Roland devices, has an intelligent interface, which you will want with an MT-32.

fitzpatr wrote:

SoftMPU is a DOS program which runs in the background and emulates an intelligent midi interface, allowing UART cards to work wi […]
Show full quote

SoftMPU is a DOS program which runs in the background and emulates an intelligent midi interface, allowing UART cards to work with games that require an intelligent interface. There is a document which kn nvidia which cards will work. There are limitations as to which games can work with this program due to the use of emm386.

HardMPU is a recently created board dedicated to be an internal intelligent MIDI interface card. This is effectively SoftMPU running on an ISA card, which bypasses the need for a TSR and EMM386.

To me, the best option, by far, is the card made by Keropi et al. That is a fully hardware solution, including wavetable header, and works with effectively everything. It is basically a new Roland MPU-401AT.

No sound card, other than Roland devices, has an intelligent interface, which you will want with an MT-32.

Thank you. 😀 I'm slowly figuring this out. 😀 I'm going to see what my options are for getting my hands on one of these as production and money permits. I just need a small number of items and then I hope to be able to be busy through winter working on a couple retro systems. 😀 Thanks again!

^ fitzpatr
Pretty much this. As a bit of background info, MPU-401 has two modes to get data to MIDI devices: normal (or intelligent) mode and UART mode. Normal mode operates in a way that takes some load off the CPU and is required for some earlier DOS games, but normal mode was also only supported in professional MIDI cards from Roland, Voyetra, Music Quest, and so forth. UART mode is provided as part of all but the earliest sound cards but is not compatible with some of this earlier DOS software. Thus using a gameport MIDI adapter will restrict you to games that support non-intelligent mode or require SoftMPU for compatibility.

It's worth noting that the EMM386 restriction isn't a big deal unless you're running an older machine (like a 286) which doesn't support it or prefer another EMS/UMB manager. The only game I can think of off hand which is completely incompatible with EMM386 is Ultima VII. The biggest advantage is that these new build intelligent mode cards generally Just Work[tm] and don't require any thinking about such things.

I'd say Keropi's cards are probably the slickest (because they come fully preassembled -- I'm not aware of any compatibility differences), but HardMPU is much more open hardware. HardMPU will always be available and could be reproduced by someone with the appropriate skill in board layout and assembly whereas only Keropi (or his anointed successor) currently has access to the required GAL logic dumps to make Music Quest clones.

gdjacobs wrote:

^ fitzpatr Pretty much this. As a bit of background info, MPU-401 has two modes to get data to MIDI devices: normal (or intellig […]
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^ fitzpatr
Pretty much this. As a bit of background info, MPU-401 has two modes to get data to MIDI devices: normal (or intelligent) mode and UART mode. Normal mode operates in a way that takes some load off the CPU and is required for some earlier DOS games, but normal mode was also only supported in professional MIDI cards from Roland, Voyetra, Music Quest, and so forth. UART mode is provided as part of all but the earliest sound cards but is not compatible with some of this earlier DOS software. Thus using a gameport MIDI adapter will restrict you to games that support non-intelligent mode or require SoftMPU for compatibility.

It's worth noting that the EMM386 restriction isn't a big deal unless you're running an older machine (like a 286) which doesn't support it or prefer another EMS/UMB manager. The only game I can think of off hand which is completely incompatible with EMM386 is Ultima VII. The biggest advantage is that these new build intelligent mode cards generally Just Work[tm] and don't require any thinking about such things.

I'd say Keropi's cards are probably the slickest (because they come fully preassembled -- I'm not aware of any compatibility differences), but HardMPU is much more open hardware. HardMPU will always be available and could be reproduced by someone with the appropriate skill in board layout and assembly whereas only Keropi (or his anointed successor) currently has access to the required GAL logic dumps to make Music Quest clones.

That makes sense regarding the two modes. I'd read a little bit into that and is why I originally started looking into single-card solutions (even though I a bit inaccurately just equated single card to being intelligent). 😀 One quick question I have is that with something like Lo-Tech's card (https://texelec.com/product/lo-tech-mif-ipc-b/) from what I can see of it, am I correct in assuming that it is made for the Roland MPU boxes? I'd heard here and in a few other places that often on eBay, you'll see one or the other - the Roland box with no ISA card, or vice-versa. (But usually the box minus the card.) This looks like a DB25 output which was what the MPU-401 took, then the box output MIDI and a few other things.

So if a sound card _does_ output MIDI through the gameport, is it accurate to say _any_ will work with the SoftMPU driver, or did every card manufacturer have their own SoftMPU implementation, meaning some might never have released it? I'm sort of at a point where I'm looking at options like Keropi's cards, but I already have an SB16 (which I understand has its own collection of MIDI issues) but it would at least get me buy until I could get one of Keropi's.

Again, sorry for all of the n00b questions. I really tried hard to see if I could figure things out on my own, especially the Lo-Tech card stuff and how it might connect to an MT-32. 😀

The MIF-IPC-A cards are a bus interface for the MPU-401 breakout box. They're actually pretty simple with most of the interesting bits in the box itself. Roland also had other versions for other types of system.

SoftMPU is intended to be a general solution. BJT42 maintains a compatibility list of known good sound cards, although presumably lots of other ones work as well.
https://github.com/bjt42/softmpu/wiki/Compatible-Sound-Cards

Thallanor wrote:

[...]

So if a sound card _does_ output MIDI through the gameport, is it accurate to say _any_ will work with the SoftMPU driver, or did every card manufacturer have their own SoftMPU implementation, meaning some might never have released it?

SoftMPU is a modern community-driven piece of software that has nothing to do with any of the old manufacturers. It's also not a driver (i.e. it's not tied to any particular hardware), it's a DOS TSR program that intercepts calls from games (or other software) intended for intelligent mode MIDI hardware and adds that intelligence itself, then communicates the output to the UART ('dumb') MIDI hardware of a sound card.

So the only requirement is a sound card (*any* sound card) with a good 'dumb' UART MIDI implementation. Basically that means pretty much anything out there, except cards with a known buggy MIDI implementation (various early Creative Soundblaster 16 cards, for example).

I'm sort of at a point where I'm looking at options like Keropi's cards, but I already have an SB16 (which I understand has its own collection of MIDI issues) but it would at least get me buy until I could get one of Keropi's.

Of all the cards you could have, that's probably the worst. But it will still work, just with hanging notes.

Note that you don't need the intelligent mode to communicate with the MT-32, that works just fine. You need intelligent mode to support software that depends on it, so very early MT-32/CM-32L/LAPC-1 titles.

Again, sorry for all of the n00b questions. I really tried hard to see if I could figure things out on my own, especially the Lo-Tech card stuff and how it might connect to an MT-32. 😀

Tbh, I'd not spend significant money until you understand the situation.

• Pretty much any sound card other than that buggy SB16 would be fine for connecting to the MT-32. Even this SB16 can do it, but with hanging notes.
• The vast majority of software supporting MT-32 would just work with no other hard or software.
• A small number of old games (Ultima 6 for example) need Intelligent mode.

Now, *if* you need intelligent mode, you can get it in a few ways:

• The original Roland MPU-401, connected to the PC via the MIF-IPC-A
• A Roland LAPC-1 sound card with built-in MPU-401
• An MPU-401 clone, such as the MusicQuest card, or Keropi's clone of the MusicQuest card
• SoftMPU, a TSR to emulate intelligent mode without special hardware

So right now, with that SB16, you can already talk to the MT-32, run any software that works with dumb UART mode and use SoftMPU to emulate intelligent mode for the few titles that don't. Your only limitations are the hanging note bug and the fact that SoftMPU takes up some memory, although you can load it high if you have a 386 or later with at least 1MB of RAM.

All you need for a seamless experience is a sound card without the irritating Creative MIDI bugs. Added advantage is that most will give you good SBPro 2.0 support, which Creative's own SB16/32/64 don't. If you go for an Aztech 2316/2320 or ESS688/1868-based card, you get solid hardware-level compatibilty with the Soundblaster, real OPL3 FM-synthesis and a bug-free MIDI implementation. I regularly see those go for EUR 10 or less around here (NL), far less than any other option for 386 or higher. Of course you *can* go for dedicated hardware with intelligent mode support, in which case Keropi's MusicQuest clone or otherwise HardMPU is probably the best option. But apart from a more 'authentic' experience, you don't actually gain anything else.

Things get different when you mention an 8-bit only XT-class system. Then a sound card with good MIDI port is probably going to cost more than a HardMPU/MusicQuest(clone), and SoftMPU won't work (it requires emm386.exe). So you need a hardware solution. Unless you are very rich or very lucky, original stuff is not an option. So you want HardMPU or a MusicQuest clone here. Note that you can't use your SB16 here anyway, so for non-MIDI based sound options you are also in a different ballgame - which would require a separate topic 😉

dionb wrote:

Now, *if* you need intelligent mode, you can get it in a few ways: […]
Show full quote

Now, *if* you need intelligent mode, you can get it in a few ways:

• The original Roland MPU-401, connected to the PC via the MIF-IPC-A
• A Roland LAPC-1 sound card with built-in MPU-401
• An MPU-401 clone, such as the MusicQuest card, or Keropi's clone of the MusicQuest card
• SoftMPU, a TSR to emulate intelligent mode without special hardware

Note that this is by no means an authoritative list. Also, the LAPC-I has an internal CM-32L synth but requires a special, somewhat rare breakout box for external modules.

dionb wrote:

Things get different when you mention an 8-bit only XT-class system. Then a sound card with good MIDI port is probably going to cost more than a HardMPU/MusicQuest(clone), and SoftMPU won't work (it requires emm386.exe). So you need a hardware solution. Unless you are very rich or very lucky, original stuff is not an option. So you want HardMPU or a MusicQuest clone here. Note that you can't use your SB16 here anyway, so for non-MIDI based sound options you are also in a different ballgame - which would require a separate topic 😉

Most 16 bit cards work fine in 8 bit only XT systems with careful choice of I/O resources.

gdjacobs wrote:

The MIF-IPC-A cards are a bus interface for the MPU-401 breakout box. They're actually pretty simple with most of the interesting bits in the box itself. Roland also had other versions for other types of system.

SoftMPU is intended to be a general solution. BJT42 maintains a compatibility list of known good sound cards, although presumably lots of other ones work as well.
https://github.com/bjt42/softmpu/wiki/Compatible-Sound-Cards

That makes sense about the MIF-IPC-A. That was my impression after seeing the DB25 port on it and the DB25 port on the box. Thanks for the confirmation. That's what I wanted to know. 😀

I'll see if I can dig up that compatibility list. Thanks for that too!

dionb wrote:

SoftMPU is a modern community-driven piece of software that has nothing to do with any of the old manufacturers. It's also not a driver (i.e. it's not tied to any particular hardware), it's a DOS TSR program that intercepts calls from games (or other software) intended for intelligent mode MIDI hardware and adds that intelligence itself, then communicates the output to the UART ('dumb') MIDI hardware of a sound card.

Thanks! That's good news. It's nice to know what my options are there.

dionb wrote:

Of all the cards you could have, that's probably the worst. But it will still work, just with hanging notes.

That was my understanding too. 😀 I do have a small number of other sound cards that I can dig around for. This is just one of the few I had right in front of me. I'll see if I'm able to dig up some of my others.

dionb wrote:

Now, *if* you need intelligent mode, you can get it in a few ways: […]
Show full quote

Now, *if* you need intelligent mode, you can get it in a few ways:

• The original Roland MPU-401, connected to the PC via the MIF-IPC-A
• A Roland LAPC-1 sound card with built-in MPU-401
• An MPU-401 clone, such as the MusicQuest card, or Keropi's clone of the MusicQuest card
• SoftMPU, a TSR to emulate intelligent mode without special hardware

I've been looking at Keropi's card simply because that way, it ensures compatibility, or at least the fewest headaches. Well, in most ways. 😀

dionb wrote:

All you need for a seamless experience is a sound card without the irritating Creative MIDI bugs. Added advantage is that most will give you good SBPro 2.0 support, which Creative's own SB16/32/64 don't. If you go for an Aztech 2316/2320 or ESS688/1868-based card, you get solid hardware-level compatibilty with the Soundblaster, real OPL3 FM-synthesis and a bug-free MIDI implementation.

I might look for one of these too, simply because I'd rather have a couple different cards for a couple different options for different builds down the road. So this gives me another avenue to go down.

dionb wrote:

Things get different when you mention an 8-bit only XT-class system. Then a sound card with good MIDI port is probably going to cost more than a HardMPU/MusicQuest(clone), and SoftMPU won't work (it requires emm386.exe). So you need a hardware solution. Unless you are very rich or very lucky, original stuff is not an option. So you want HardMPU or a MusicQuest clone here. Note that you can't use your SB16 here anyway, so for non-MIDI based sound options you are also in a different ballgame - which would require a separate topic 😉

It is a shame that the original Sound Blaster had a non-MPU 401-compatible gameport/MIDI port. I have one of those in my PC with 8-bit slots. This PC is much lower-priority though and I might just go down the road of good OPL3 and SBPro compatibility, MIDI or no MIDI. Though given how infrequently this PC will likely be used, even just the SB1.0 does the trick, really...

Thanks again for the feedback. It's much appreciated! 😀

gdjacobs wrote:

Most 16 bit cards work fine in 8 bit only XT systems with careful choice of I/O resources.

This is an area where I hope to do some trial and error with with a few different cards, time permitting. 😀

Thallanor wrote:

Please forgive me but this is going to be a n00b question to many here. […]
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Please forgive me but this is going to be a n00b question to many here.

I've been digging through the various threads here regarding 'what is the best sound card' etc. and of course, that varies from person to person. What seems to be consistent though is that there is no one size fits all card. To that end, I was wondering if I would just get one of Lo-Tech's MIF-IPC-A cards. I had never really looked at these closely until recently and notice they use a DB25 connector, which I understand connects to the Roland MPU box, then the MT-32 would connect to that. Is there any way around this or does someone make a knock-off of the MPU box? They're rare as hens teeth on eBay (no real surprise) and as such, demand a hefty price. Barring that, does anyone make an ISA (8-bit or 16-bit, I suppose, though I do have an older PC that only has 8-bit slots that I wouldn't mind putting one in, but it's not critical)?

I suppose, failing all of this, does anyone have a recommendation for a sound card based on the fact that I would like some sort of Sound Blaster compatibility for digital audio, but I'd like a gameport to connect my MT-32? I understand that there is SoftMPU and HardMPU and I suppose given the choice, HardMPU would be superior? (I stand to be corrected and am trying to learn as much as I go.) Worst-case scenario, I could go with two sound cards, though in the 8-bit only PC, I might soon find myself suffering from a slot shortage. I have read here, for example, that many like the AWE32 or AWE64 but they each have minor (and some not-so-minor) deficiencies.

I don't want to recreate the wheel here with a 'what is the best sound card' threads, but am just looking for a good sound card or combo for playing my old DOS games. Most are from Sierra, though now that I finally have an MT-32, I'm eager to fire up some of my other old games. 😀

Thanks in advance!

We are fellow travelers.

Couple of questions.

1) How many systems are you intending to build or use for these vintage gaming activities?

2) How many slots in each machine will you have available?

I've done extensive research into precisely the issues you're facing and I can give you the short & sweet conclusions once I know what your parameters are.

aquishix wrote:

We are fellow travelers. […]
Show full quote

We are fellow travelers.

Couple of questions.

1) How many systems are you intending to build or use for these vintage gaming activities?

2) How many slots in each machine will you have available?

I've done extensive research into precisely the issues you're facing and I can give you the short & sweet conclusions once I know what your parameters are.

Cool! Okay, my "current" (as in, all works-in-progress) builds are:

* Tandy 1000 TL/2. 4 8-bit ISA slots. This one is a "nice-to-have" for getting the MT-32 and Sound Blaster (or compatible) running for both MT-32 and digital audio. Mostly for my older Sierra games.
* Packard Bell PackMAte 450 (a model that seems to not really exist, presumably a made-for-Canada or even made-for-Future Shop (realtor) only). Pentium Overdrive. It's 3 or 4 ISA slots - unfortunately not at home right now so can't remember the exact number. This PC is probably the least important of the bunch in that it doesn't fill a particular niche for me.
* 486/66 (soon to be 486/100). 1 x VLB, 3 x PCI, 3 x ISA. This is going to be my "primary build" as it should generally run my old 286 stuff (with moslo or similar) and scale up a bit too.
* In-progress Pentium built. 3 ISA, 4 PCI. Might go with a board w/ AGP too. This is a bit more down the road and I do have most of the parts.

In summary, the 486 build is my highest priority. The Tandy second highest, the Pentium third, the Packard Bell fourth. Ideally, I'd eventually have an MT-32 for each, but that's a bit wasteful, so I have no problem moving it around from computer to computer. I'd basically get on a roll with one or two games each and stick with it, so it's not like the MT-32 would be swapped daily. Probably only every few months.

I hope that this helps. 😀 And thank you for looking into this too!

The 486 will work fine with an OPL-SA or ESS card and SoftMPU. The Tandy will pretty much require an intelligent interface because of the vintage of software you're going to be running and inability to run SoftMPU. I'd get in contact with ab0tj or keropi about buying one of their cards. Those cards will work great with a 486 as well, but I'm not sure if you'll think the convenience is worth the cost.

gdjacobs wrote:

The 486 will work fine with an OPL-SA or ESS card and SoftMPU. The Tandy will pretty much require an intelligent interface because of the vintage of software you're going to be running and inability to run SoftMPU. I'd get in contact with ab0tj or keropi about buying one of their cards. Those cards will work great with a 486 as well, but I'm not sure if you'll think the convenience is worth the cost.

Excellent. 😀 I've e-mailed keropi the other day but haven't had an opportunity to reply yet. It's been insane with work and overtime. 🙁 Thanks again for the feedback!

Thallanor wrote:

Cool! Okay, my "current" (as in, all works-in-progress) builds are: […]
Show full quote

Cool! Okay, my "current" (as in, all works-in-progress) builds are:

* Tandy 1000 TL/2. 4 8-bit ISA slots. This one is a "nice-to-have" for getting the MT-32 and Sound Blaster (or compatible) running for both MT-32 and digital audio. Mostly for my older Sierra games.
* Packard Bell PackMAte 450 (a model that seems to not really exist, presumably a made-for-Canada or even made-for-Future Shop (realtor) only). Pentium Overdrive. It's 3 or 4 ISA slots - unfortunately not at home right now so can't remember the exact number. This PC is probably the least important of the bunch in that it doesn't fill a particular niche for me.
* 486/66 (soon to be 486/100). 1 x VLB, 3 x PCI, 3 x ISA. This is going to be my "primary build" as it should generally run my old 286 stuff (with moslo or similar) and scale up a bit too.
* In-progress Pentium built. 3 ISA, 4 PCI. Might go with a board w/ AGP too. This is a bit more down the road and I do have most of the parts.

In summary, the 486 build is my highest priority. The Tandy second highest, the Pentium third, the Packard Bell fourth. Ideally, I'd eventually have an MT-32 for each, but that's a bit wasteful, so I have no problem moving it around from computer to computer. I'd basically get on a roll with one or two games each and stick with it, so it's not like the MT-32 would be swapped daily. Probably only every few months.

I hope that this helps. 😀 And thank you for looking into this too!

Ok, but how many *free* slots are you going to have in each machine? 😉

Those 3 ISA slots in that 486 are going to be hotly contested if your experience is anything like mine. Only you can tell me what we have to work with, here. Or is it variable?

Anyway, here is the sound-relevant part of my DOS gaming rack:

Pentium II
Gravis Ultrasound MAX
Creative Labs Sound Blaster 16(CT2940 w/ true OPL3)
HardMPU

486
Gravis Ultrasound Classic
Creative Labs Sound Blaster 16(CT2940 w/ true OPL3)
MusicQuest MPU-401 compatible card(clone)

386
Gravis Ultrasound Classic
Creative Labs Sound Blaster Pro 2.0(CT1600)
MusicQuest MPU-401 compatible card(original)

XT Turbo
Creative Labs Sound Blaster 16(CT2890) -- just to hook up the PC speaker header to 😉

Roland SC-88
Roland SC-55 (NOT MkII)
Roland MT-32 (Gen 2)

And I use a Roland MPU-104 to switch between all 4 systems, and a Roland MPU-105 to switch between all the Roland synths.

Outside that rack, I have a true IBM XT (5160) with a Sound Blaster 1.5 that appears to have the C/MS upgrade chips installed, and also seems to have a v2.0+ DSP installed. I've used it to run the 8088 Corruption and 8088 Domination demos.

I'm building a 286 soon and will be equipping it with either that Sound Blaster 1.5 card or this recent Sound Blaster 2.0 card I acquired, in which I installed another C/MS upgrade kit.

I have constructed, I believe, the *ultimate* sound setup for DOS gaming...except I don't have an Adlib Gold(yet?).

So basically, if you're looking for the absolute best, just mimic what I've done to whatever extent you can afford the time, patience, and money. It's not cheap in any of those 3 categories, but the dividends are amazing if you're seeking that DOS-era aural nirvana.

What, no covox? :+

My setup is somewhat less impressive, but perhaps an example of what is possible on a more limited budget:

Pentium
GUS Classic
Aztech SG NX Pro (SBPro 2.0, real OPL3 + Covox & DSS support)
SoftMPU via the NX Pro
- attempting to add an SB16/32 to this for CQM and SB16, but getting very frustrated with PnP issues and incompatibility between Creative utils and DOS 7.1 (which I need for my 8GB SSD)

486
AudioExcel AV310 (CMI-8330 with SBPro and SB16 support)
MusicQuest MPU-401 (original)

Currently no fully working pre-486 systems operating fully, but I have an Olivetti M24 (pre-XT almost AT specced 8086-8 machine) I want to use for really old stuff once I find a (non-standard) keyboard for it. It has 16b slots, but not AT/ISA standard, so expansion options are limited to 8b ISA. I intend to use the MusicQuest there, and see if any of my other cards will work for AdLib and SB 2.0 compatibility in an 8b slot.

The MIDI stuff connects to:
MT-32 (old PCB)
MT-100
A Roland GM/GS piano, basically eq to an SC-55 for playback.

But tbh, the more you add, the less impressive the improvement. "Just" an SBPro compatible card with OPL3 and no MIDI bug connected to an MT-32 using SoftMPU is a great early 1990s setup and an SBPro or 16 card with GM MIDI either via built-in wavetable or an external module is fine for late 1990s (with a GUS as icing on the cake for the few things that support it well). Only the GUS and MT-32 are expensive in these setups, and both are optional - most MT-32 stuff will run fine with GM, even if the instruments can be a bit off. A single SBPro-compatible card with wavetable support will give you about 75% of the experience for very little expense.