VOGONS


Reply 200 of 358, by weedeewee

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hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-09-18, 13:54:
weedeewee wrote on 2021-09-18, 12:45:

I'd settle for anything that can do pio & dma transfers, UDMA33 is plenty, which I think an rpi with some gluelogic should be able to manage.

If with "some gluelogic" do you mean an FPGA frontend doing all the nasty bus talking work, then yes. But again, FPGA == Cost (aka, not below 90USD).
Please, read the NetPI post again... Even with the FPGA, they didn't managed to get past PIO4 in such configuration. Man, why is so difficult to accept it? Sure, the RPi can do lots of amazing things... But fast realtime IO processing isn't one of them. It is a different deal, in a way you can have a tiny JMicron with a 8042-like MCU translating from SATA to IDE. Why? Because the processing CPU raw power doesn't matter as much as the IO processing power and latency, which these things do all in specialized ASIC logic. You can throw all the raw processing powers of an ARM Cortex on the task, and still don't match JMicron's, because your IO is deficient.

What is so difficult to accept for you ? I'm just daydreaming here, throwing ideas of the top of my head.
Did the builders of the netpi know about the SMI for datatransfer? I doubt it, since it's mentioned they're using spi for that.
oh and I know you can't use it for this purpose, but the cheapest fpga on mouser is 1.24 €

and on a side note. I've got an external usb case for a sata cdrom which has an eject button which somehow uses the sata signals!? do you have any clue on that ?
edit : oh and the netpi was developed on a first gen Raspberry pi.

Last edited by weedeewee on 2021-09-18, 14:26. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 201 of 358, by weedeewee

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Datadrainer wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:16:

About pluging three cables on one device, I'll not answer then :p Because, it will need 1 audio output too with a mixer to emulate 4 CD-ROM drives with audio. So that is 4 cables to the very minimum. «all-in-one solution of dreams» I said, not the most doable thing ever 😁

But to came back to the Pi, I don't know. I said I don't like it and I see it as not viable for a every day use. But taken as a DIY project it is a very interesting one and maybe by coding a library able stream data through the GPIO port, ATA-4 at 33 MB/s may be achieved. I don't know. I never developed on Pi and I don't know what transfer speed can be really done with it. I find all this ideas (using a micro computer as IDE drive, modding a CD-ROM drive to emulate it's controllers, etc) very fascinating 😀

right forgot about the audio ! and let's not forget about power as well 😉

and for the pi, the gpio ports do have alternate functions, like some are I2C lines, etc...
indeed, fascinating ! 🖖

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Reply 202 of 358, by hyoenmadan

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SScorpio wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:13:

I keep seeing people mention FPGAs and them blowing out the budget for a cost-efficient device.

Personally, I never meant this task would require a Cyclone 10 GX bad boy, a Zynq or any chip costing over 100USD a piece. But is more about the overall cost of the finished unit, and people not wanting to accept the RPi isn't fitted to this sort of task.

About the XStation, you can find photos of an open unit in Google.

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As you can see, the Cyclone 10 used there is one of these used in the netduino usbkey like boards. Although magnitudes less expensive than a Zynq or an Spartan, still isn't cheap as CPLDs or other kind or cheaper controllers.

weedeewee wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:22:

and on a side note. I've got an external usb case for a sata cdrom which has an eject button which somehow uses the sata signals!? do you have any clue on that ?

Again, the magic of ASIC mass producing, which a hobbyist and niche market can't access 😁.

Reply 203 of 358, by Datadrainer

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SScorpio wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:13:
I keep seeing people mention FPGAs and them blowing out the budget for a cost-efficient device. […]
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I keep seeing people mention FPGAs and them blowing out the budget for a cost-efficient device.

Yes, some FPGAs can be expensive but there are others that aren't. It depends on how much processing is needed. I can't find which FPGA is on the mentioned XStation ODE, I can only find pictures of the top which just has a WiFi/Bluetooth chip shown. But in the Intel Cyclone 10 series, there are big boy GX series chips that are over $100 and the lowest end chip has 85,000 LE. But there is also the Intel Cyclone 10 LP series where non-bulk discount you can get a single chip for just over $7 and it has 6,800 LE.

To put things into perspective, the older MiST FPGA runs off a Cyclone III EP3C25 with 24,000 LE and can run a full Amiga, Atari ST, etc. Those computer cores don't fully simulate the internals of a CD-ROM, but the processor, video, audio, etc add up to much, much more than what's in a lowly CD-ROM.

We probably won't see something like a $16 GoTek Floppy, but we also aren't looking at something that requires a $100+ chip.

With a working device, the logic designed on the FPGA could be taken to create an ASIC which would do the same thing while costing less once the manufacturing world returns to normal. This is outside the realm of hobbiest but maybe a smaller company would see this as an unexplored market.

I totally agree with that. That was my point about what can be done vs price. I mean considering emulating one UDMA33 device, there is now affordable FPGA (maybe a Cyclone II) up to the task. What can be problematic is the processing of audio in parallel of data transfer, I think. In the other way, IDE Simulator from tattiebogle use a Cortex-M3 CPU which is very cheap, but the board is sold $200...

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Reply 204 of 358, by SScorpio

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hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:27:

About the XStation, you can find photos of an open unit in Google.

EUiE7pEXkAAH6ok.jpg

As you can see, the Cyclone 10 used there is one of these used in the netduino usbkey like boards. Although magnitudes less expensive than a Zynq or an Spartan, still isn't cheap as CPLDs or other kind or cheaper controllers.

That's the PS1Digital, which takes the PS1 video signals and does video processing, and outputs HDMI.

The Xstation is just a board without a case or anything, but I can only find images of the top and no FPGAs are visible unless it's one of the really small chips that are unreadable.

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Reply 205 of 358, by Datadrainer

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SScorpio wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:35:
hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:27:

About the XStation, you can find photos of an open unit in Google.

EUiE7pEXkAAH6ok.jpg

As you can see, the Cyclone 10 used there is one of these used in the netduino usbkey like boards. Although magnitudes less expensive than a Zynq or an Spartan, still isn't cheap as CPLDs or other kind or cheaper controllers.

That's the PS1Digital, which takes the PS1 video signals and does video processing, and outputs HDMI.

The Xstation is just a board without a case or anything, but I can only find images of the top and no FPGAs are visible unless it's one of the really small chips that are unreadable.

There is an ESP32 on the board. That's a micro-controller, found on some Arduino.

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Reply 206 of 358, by hyoenmadan

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SScorpio wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:35:

That's the PS1Digital, which takes the PS1 video signals and does video processing, and outputs HDMI.

The Xstation is just a board without a case or anything, but I can only find images of the top and no FPGAs are visible unless it's one of the really small chips that are unreadable.

So far I understand from docs... This board is just a dumb one with the wifi and the SD slot. It interfaces with the board which I posted, the one who finally implements the engine in the FPGA (along other functions), which in turn is connected to the Sony chips on the PS1 logic board. Ofc, I may be wrong, as there are a lot of products for consoles which do lots of things in one, and I don't know all of them.

Anyways, people may think would be too op for a PC ODE... But there are 2 things to have in count here.

*PS1 drive is a more direct interface which speeds PIO2 at much. PC ones, specially if you want to use this with more than 486 and Pentiums, aren't.
*You can use the ARM core in these chips to do all the copy protect emulation and analog audio you want in software, while keeping your FPGA logic for what it matters here, which is implement your ATA bridge in a way it can manage all the bus talking at the speed you expect from it. With it, you would also cut the RPi middleman.

Datadrainer wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:42:

There is an ESP32 on the board. That's a micro-controller, found on some Arduino.

I've read the ESP32 used for lights and wifi/comm stuff... Would be interesting see it used outside these applications.

Last edited by hyoenmadan on 2021-09-18, 14:56. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 207 of 358, by SScorpio

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The ESP32 gives you access to WiFi and Bluetooth while also having a programmable microcontroller. The one in the picture costs about $3.

My understanding is that it has an embedded RISC processor and isn't an FPGA.

Reply 208 of 358, by weedeewee

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hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:46:

I've read the ESP32 used for lights and wifi/comm stuff... Would be interesting see it used outside these applications.

bitluni on youtube has a few differing applications....

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Reply 209 of 358, by SScorpio

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hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-09-18, 14:46:

So far I understand... This board is just a dumb one with the wifi and the SD slot. It interfaces with the board which I posted, the one who finally implements the engine in the FPGA (along other functions), which in turn is connected to the Sony chips on the PS1 logic board. Ofc, I may be wrong, as there are a lot of products for consoles which do lots of things in one, and I don't know all of them.

No, the board you see is the entire XStation. Many people do install both the XStation and PS1Digital so they have an ODE, and HDMI output on the same PS1. I believe the CD-ROM controller itself is on the PS1's mainboard and the XStation is just replacing the physical optical reading part of the drive.

Reply 211 of 358, by Nexxen

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SETBLASTER wrote on 2021-09-19, 22:42:

i hope to see a cheap solution just like the gotek for floppy

working old cdroms has been difficult lately, most of them start to fail

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Reply 212 of 358, by red_avatar

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I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to find a steady supply of new DVD drives - they still make them after all. If you can work with a fixed board, perhaps replacing the laser aspect of it with an SD card wouldn't be much easier. It not be the cheapest or smallest but you'd solve one problem at least and it might be cheaper than FPGA. Heck, those cheap drives mostly have crappy lasers and poor motors and those wouldn't be needed.

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Reply 213 of 358, by red_avatar

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SETBLASTER wrote on 2021-09-19, 22:42:

i hope to see a cheap solution just like the gotek for floppy

working old cdroms has been difficult lately, most of them start to fail

I have a stack of old drives that is slowly growing smaller and smaller and the remaining drives are low quality ones. My best drives are Mitsumi ones from 1994 & 1995. Those things are rock solid - I have three, a dual and two quads but for later builds these are too slow. The only other surviving drive from my own past, is my Pioneer 105S - a slot loading drive from 1999. Works great, is quiet even at top speed and has solid DOS drivers. I do fear for this one dying, though. It's the only good DVD drive I have left and it's also my oldest. Back in 1999 DVD drives were rare as hell but apparently they made them pretty well compared to ones 10 or more years later.

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Reply 214 of 358, by retardware

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SETBLASTER wrote on 2021-09-19, 22:42:

i hope to see a cheap solution just like the gotek for floppy

working old cdroms has been difficult lately, most of them start to fail

Remove hard old lube and relube, and clean lens, that usually makes work them like new.
Had recently reworked 9 old IDE DVD writers which still have a/d audio output, of which some weren't reading discs anymore at all.
They all work fine with pressed CDs/DVDDLs.
But only 3 passed tests with the notoriously difficult 800MB CDs and DVD+ DL without any read errors.
Even if I now throw 6 drives into the trash, there is no scarcity yet, at least for me.

Reply 215 of 358, by ppc4me

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retardware wrote on 2021-09-19, 23:25:
Remove hard old lube and relube, and clean lens, that usually makes work them like new. Had recently reworked 9 old IDE DVD writ […]
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SETBLASTER wrote on 2021-09-19, 22:42:

i hope to see a cheap solution just like the gotek for floppy

working old cdroms has been difficult lately, most of them start to fail

Remove hard old lube and relube, and clean lens, that usually makes work them like new.
Had recently reworked 9 old IDE DVD writers which still have a/d audio output, of which some weren't reading discs anymore at all.
They all work fine with pressed CDs/DVDDLs.
But only 3 passed tests with the notoriously difficult 800MB CDs and DVD+ DL without any read errors.
Even if I now throw 6 drives into the trash, there is no scarcity yet, at least for me.

What's the main cause of un-repairable drive failures? Do the laser diodes burn out or are folks throwing out drives that would just need to be cleaned, as mentioned?

Reply 216 of 358, by retardware

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ppc4me wrote on 2021-09-20, 08:27:
retardware wrote on 2021-09-19, 23:25:
Remove hard old lube and relube, and clean lens, that usually makes work them like new. Had recently reworked 9 old IDE DVD writ […]
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SETBLASTER wrote on 2021-09-19, 22:42:

i hope to see a cheap solution just like the gotek for floppy

working old cdroms has been difficult lately, most of them start to fail

Remove hard old lube and relube, and clean lens, that usually makes work them like new.
Had recently reworked 9 old IDE DVD writers which still have a/d audio output, of which some weren't reading discs anymore at all.
They all work fine with pressed CDs/DVDDLs.
But only 3 passed tests with the notoriously difficult 800MB CDs and DVD+ DL without any read errors.
Even if I now throw 6 drives into the trash, there is no scarcity yet, at least for me.

What's the main cause of un-repairable drive failures? Do the laser diodes burn out or are folks throwing out drives that would just need to be cleaned, as mentioned?

From my personal experience, the very few drives that do not have (rare) other issues like worn-out belts etc, and do not improve after cleaning and relubing are typically visibly physically damaged in such an extent that I think it is safe to assume that their non-function is not a consequence of laser-wearout.

Wearing out the laser would take quite some effort, as with adequate cooling the lasers last >1000 hours of writing time.
When reading, they are not stressed at all, lifetime 10-50k+ hours.

So I would indeed claim that people throw out perfectly-good drives that could be fixed in about 10 minutes.

Reply 217 of 358, by cyclone3d

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Oh, I've had burners stop burning after only a few uses. They generally still read discs ok, but even if they go through the burning process and say it completes the disc can still be completely blank and can be written with a working burner.

Back in the day, there was also the common issue of drives not liking burned discs and a fix was to slightly adjust the power of the laser.

I have had quite a few drives that stop spinning the discs or stop being able to read a CD at all due to the laser dying.

I generally disassemble optical drives to see what is going on to see if I can fix them before I scrap them.

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Reply 218 of 358, by pan069

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-09-20, 19:01:

Back in the day, there was also the common issue of drives not liking burned discs and a fix was to slightly adjust the power of the laser.

I have a few drives like that. Is there more information on this that you know of?

Reply 219 of 358, by cyclone3d

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pan069 wrote on 2021-09-20, 21:08:
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-09-20, 19:01:

Back in the day, there was also the common issue of drives not liking burned discs and a fix was to slightly adjust the power of the laser.

I have a few drives like that. Is there more information on this that you know of?

That was a really long time ago.... basically, there should be a tiny variable resistor on the laser unit that you very slightly adjust and then test and see if the drive will then read burned discs reliably.

If it is better, then you turned it the correct way. If it is worse, you turned it the wrong way.

Best to mark the original adjustment location on the variable resistor before you adjust.

I can't guarantee that it won't make the laser wear out faster.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header