VOGONS


First post, by sirnephilim

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Was tossing this idea around lately, probably not going to build it - at least this week - as I'm usually all about maximum compatibility for the era in question. But I was going over what hardware, OS, etc. I'd run to cover the largest chunk of retro IBM PC games in one system.

Just going by memory, Windows 98 would probably be my starting point. I recall most DOS games that weren't locked to the CPU clock worked at least well enough back then, many working nigh perfectly if tweaked right. Anything XP or later has at least a reasonable chance of working on modern hardware so can be discarded from consideration fairly safely, and 16-bit Windows was still at least moderately supported - honestly the only games I remember playing in the 3.1 days were card based or Sim(Whatever). (One could always dual-boot for better DOS support.)

Hardware wise, we're on to a thornier issue. Win98 covered a lot of ground, honestly. You've got 3 major standards for video from PCI to AGP to PCI-Express, processors ranging from hundreds to thousands of megahertz, and two major CPU brands to consider in AMD and Intel - both being VERY competitive at the end of 98's run. (I was an AMD fanboy at the time but have no real loyalty beyond price and performance.) Sound cards are somewhat easier, as one was quite often as good as another when it came to Windows games in 32-bit mode, and most at least worked with DOS games even if it wasn't perfect.

So my imaginary rig would go as such:

Motherboard: Intel LGA775 /w PCI-Express
Brand wouldn't matter much, ASUS would be a fairly safe bet for this architecture. The capocalypse was a thing back then though, so check the pics for damaged/bulging capacitors. Yes, this is from the tail end of Win98 hardware support, but the idea is to run things as well as possible over as wide a date range as possible.

CPU: Pentium 4 661
Core 2 seemed like gilding the lily, as anything made to run on 98 would have vastly more than enough power from the venerable P4. And the P4 is probably the cheapest part thanks to widespread corporate adoption at the time. That said I'd go for the ultimate P4 because the numbers are bigger. Honestly though, anything 2GHz or better will be miles beyond what is necessary. Intel was a fairly obvious choice thanks to vast availability and low cost of both motherboards and processors of the era.

Video Card: GeForce 7950 256MB PCI Express
Windows 98 was known to have problems with video cards above 256MB, and some ATI cards had issues with DOS graphics modes. This would arguably be the fastest nVidia 256MB card with Win98 support.

Sound Card: Sound Blaster Live! 5.1
Actually decent DOS support plus easily available Win98 drivers. Hard to go wrong there.

Case/PSU/HD/Optical: Any
An LGA775 board with PCI Express would de facto have SATA support and be an ATX form factor of some stripe. This drastically simplifies hardware choices as a crappy SSD, no-name DVD drive and any old case and PSU would work just fine here.

Note again, I wouldn't absolutely recommend this build for gaming in any era other than Win98 specifically. This was a thought experiment to figure out what I would build if I wanted to cover games from the late 80's up to the mid-2000's. Puttering around on the E of Bay tells me that this system could be parted out for around $250 if you were frugal and clever, so it may very well be a viable retro system for those on a budget or with space constraints. Though it must be said that your DOS game experience would likely be better in an emulator, your Win98 gaming would be great to excellent.

Reply 1 of 44, by aaronkatrini

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I have a 462 mobo with universal agp. I swap cpu and gpu depending on what I want to play. I think your solution makes sense only theoretically, because nothing is period correct and many games might have compatibility problems.

Reply 2 of 44, by gdjacobs

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I'm with Clueless1 in recommending a small set of machines (depending on what eras you want to game in). Also, Dosbox is wonderful for earlier mainstream retro gaming. I recommend real hardware primarily if you want to try different system setups to further fine tune your gaming experience (different graphics, different sound, etc), or if you have a historical interest in learning about earlier hardware.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 3 of 44, by sirnephilim

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I get what both of you are saying, but in my defense this was only ever the hypothetical solution to a problem I'm not sure anyone's ever had. Just spitballing a madboy solution and hoping to elicit some discussion from others vis a vis what they'd do to solve the same problem. You know, for funsies.

So yeah, more than happy to argue the merits of what hardware works with what and why, but it's not a serious build by any stretch. Just a silly thought experiment to see what parts cover the most temporal ground in terms of getting games working.

Reply 4 of 44, by gdjacobs

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I totally understand the motivation. I try to keep my working set down in size (limited desk space) -- unfortunately there are fundamental limits in CPU throttling, sound card technology, and such that pretty much preclude having solid game compatibility on a Win98 machine much beyond the Windows 95 era.

A handful of titles can be made to work, but there's wide swaths of performance range that you can't throttle to, and you generally have to be very selective in choosing components to get the whole thing working.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 6 of 44, by gdjacobs

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3x multiplier is possible via pin modding, so 300mhz with a 100mhz FSB. Most superscalar architectures lose almost all their performance with caching disabled, so I don't think multiplier manipulation is going to close the gap too reliably. I actually have an Athlon 64 s754 machine that I could test for performance range.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 8 of 44, by agent_x007

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Personally, I think it's either : Super Socket 7 or 1366 (both would be ideal to have I think).

In short : Early platforms lack power on "later" end, and newer ones lose compatibility with more obscure games from 80s/90s.
You can't have 100% 8088 compatibility on LGA 775/1366 rig, and SS7 might not have the power needed for every game out there. However, if you don't play such games - you should be fine on anything (S370/S462/LGA775/etc.). Everything depends on how far back (or forward), you need to go (ie. what games/programs interest You).

There is no "golden platform" that will works with Everything.

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Reply 10 of 44, by The Serpent Rider

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LGA775/Intel 865 was the last platform to support ISA with DMA.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 11 of 44, by chinny22

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I would probably go socket 775 if it behaves as well as everyone says, (never tired) otherwise Socket 478 as it has official Win98 support.
Graphics, 6800 if AGP or your 7950 if PCI-E
I'd bump up to Audigy 2 ZS for sound, Last official supported in Win98, Better XP support and hacked dos drivers from the Audigy.
HDD Sata, Optical, IDE if CD Audio is important otherwise SATA as well

I'd argue any XP era game that struggles on this should be fine on Win7* and dos games that don't work can be run in dos box. You just need to hope that it doesn't break too many of your Win9x games.

*just released I have no idea how well Win10 runs later XP titles, so this may not be workable after all?

Reply 12 of 44, by gdjacobs

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AlessandroB wrote:

For what i have learn, a basic PentiumII unlocket cover the most part of games until first 2000 years.

No. The P2 essentially runs at full speed or fast 286 speed with caches disabled. There's no in between with a P2.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 13 of 44, by manbearpig

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Do the floppy controllers on 775 boards still support dual disk drives?

You didn't mention an FDD but if I wanted something for DOS games, I would want to be able to use the disk if I had stumbled upon one.

Also, PCI-e wasn't common until 98 was dead and buried. Even ME was a distant memory. I wouldn't say that 98 "covered" that era.

Premio 212B motherboard (MSI MS-6112)
Intel PentiumII 333MHz Slot 1 66MHz bus
384MB ECC 66MHz
SIIG ATA133 controller --> Seagate Barracuda 80GB
SIIG Gigabit Ethernet (RTL8169) / USB 2.0 / IEEE1394 controller
ESS 1869 soundcard on board wavetable synth

Reply 14 of 44, by kolderman

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manbearpig wrote:

You didn't mention an FDD but if I wanted something for DOS games, I would want to be able to use the disk if I had stumbled upon one.

Good luck finding a working floppy disk today.

Reply 15 of 44, by manbearpig

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Guess I have good luck? I have more working floppies than not. Most of my 5 1/4" disks are for the Apple II though.

Premio 212B motherboard (MSI MS-6112)
Intel PentiumII 333MHz Slot 1 66MHz bus
384MB ECC 66MHz
SIIG ATA133 controller --> Seagate Barracuda 80GB
SIIG Gigabit Ethernet (RTL8169) / USB 2.0 / IEEE1394 controller
ESS 1869 soundcard on board wavetable synth

Reply 16 of 44, by The Serpent Rider

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Good luck finding a working floppy disk today.

Not a problem at all.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 17 of 44, by Warlord

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my 2 cents pentium 4 might run windows games from 1999-2004 etc as an example, but p4 as an architecture is of poor design and of poor performance. The Early pentium 4s got smoked by Pentium 3s and tualatins the later pentium 4s got smoked by Pentium Ms and 1st gen AMD64. There was a small window circa 2002-2003 that pentium 4 was good. outside of that it got destroyed by either Taulitins, pentium Ms or early amd64s.

What i am basically trying to tell you is that anygame that will run well on a p4 or run at all for that matter will run better on a whole lot of other things and you wouldn't be locking yourself into a early 2000s system that is going to be slow.

if I wanted to build a dual boot 98/xp machine i might consider running early amd64 cpu on nforce chipset. its very underated no body builds those systmes and I think it could be really rewarding.

Reply 18 of 44, by Srandista

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kolderman wrote:

Good luck finding a working floppy disk today.

Here you go, you can have even brand new ones from manufacturer.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/MEDIARANGE-MR200-Flo … B/dp/B004TS31L4

Socket 775 - ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA, Pentium E6500K, 4GB RAM, Radeon 9800XT, ESS Solo-1, Win 98/XP
Socket A - Chaintech CT-7AIA, AMD Athlon XP 2400+, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9600XT, ESS ES1869F, Win 98