I have two old socket 370 HP pavilions. The slower one has a 466mhz 2.0v Celeron. The faster one has a 566mhz Celeron, but unfortunately no ISA slot like the other one.
The slow but ISA MB has MEB-VM printed on it.
Will it support a CPU swap?
Is there a way to tell externally?
its exactly like this one: HP Asus MEB VM ATX Motherboard 5184-2706
Last edited by Stiletto on 2020-03-02, 06:45. Edited 1 time in total.
As shown, the MEB-VM board is limited to Mendocino 2.0v Celerons.
The best it will upgrade to is a 533MHz Celeron and that's only with a BIOS 1010 or newer.
That's Asus's name. HP may be using a different naming scheme for the BIOS.
Without the newer BIOS your limit is a 500MHz Celeron. http://www.cpu-upgrade.com/mb-ASUS/MEB-VM.html
If you want/need better you will need to do a motherboard transplant.
The board looks to have a standard mounting hole pattern so even a retail board isn't impossible.
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GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
Aside from the lacking Coppermine support, that is one sweet motherboard - nice and small, with decent onboard Rage Pro - but also ISA, non-overlapping PCI and AGP. It doesn't come much better for a late DOS/early Win9x system in a small form factor.
You clearly see the same things I do. I was shocked it wasn't the same board as my other small HPs of the same vintage. I have a gateway g6-266 tower that was to be my nascar racing rig, but this should do that even better.
I know the 466mhz isnt the top cpu for this board, but I don't feel its worth upgrading for the small jump that's left. Unless I come across one at a yard sale or something. Can't wait to move my ESS card over and build it!
Will it support a CPU swap?
Is there a way to tell externally?
I wouldn't even pay attention what asus or cpu-upgrade sites have to say about this motherboard, all I can see is that it's based on i440BX chipset and has a wide range of FSB selection. If you wish to know whether this motherboard supports lower than 2V CPUs, you need to check CPU VRM's PWM IC's datasheet (located right above CPU lever, near board's edge), look for "VID" (voltage ID) table there and if you wish to know whether it's compatible with FCPGA CPUs (coppermine), check whether pins AH4 (RESET) and X4 (RESET2) are connected on the socket.
Will it support a CPU swap?
Is there a way to tell externally?
I wouldn't even pay attention what asus or cpu-upgrade sites have to say about this motherboard, all I can see is that it's based on i440BX chipset and has a wide range of FSB selection. If you wish to know whether this motherboard supports lower than 2V CPUs, you need to check CPU VRM's PWM IC's datasheet (located right above CPU lever, near board's edge), look for "VID" (voltage ID) table there and if you wish to know whether it's compatible with FCPGA CPUs (coppermine), check whether pins AH4 (RESET) and X4 (RESET2) are connected on the socket.
Been there done that.
It won't work on this board. I've tried it before.
I also upgraded an Emachines (family favor) several years ago that was in the same boat as this thing.
Not all 440BX chips are the same. There were at least 2 and I think 3 versions.
Boards with early steppings (revisions/sspecs) only support early Celerons and P2. Not P3.
P2 was never produced in a socket 370 package so the OP is stuck with early Celerons.
Though it's possible, it's unlikely they included VR parts to support any voltage other than the 2.0v needed by the intended CPUs. Why would an OEM include extra parts to support something their system wasn't intended for? The BIOS probably doesn't support other CPU's anyway.
The situation is not well documented but it's not uncommon either.
I still have a dual Slot-1 Intel server board from 1998 with a 440BX chipset.
It doesn't support P3 at all. I'm stuck with Slot-1 P2's or a slockets with early Celerons.
The later production boards with the newer stepping BX chips support P3 just fine.
The OP is welcome to try but in the end he's going to break it or just waste some money.
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GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
This is the first time I see someone claiming that there were early revisions of 440BX chips, that did not support PIII CPUs at all. Honestly, I had never enountered such case, where a PIII CPU wouldn't work in a 440BX based motherboard, that got me interested and I did a little research on this matter.
There were 2 steppings of 440BX B1 and C1, C1 stepping fixed 4 bugs (erratas), that B1 had and each bug had a software workaround pg. 7 and 22, also, those erratas have nothing to do with PIII being incompatible with B1 stepping of a 440BX in any possible way. Both chip steppings had an identical signal pinout.
PCBONEZ wrote:
I still have a dual Slot-1 Intel server board from 1998 with a 440BX chipset.
It doesn't support P3 at all.
I have a 440EX based motherboard from 1998, that accepts PIII coppermines without any modifications. Seriously I don't know how you could come up with such an idea of a 440BX being incompatible with PIIIs, because every P6 based CPU and their chipsets, intentionally or unintentionally, were made compatible with each other. You can make a Coppermine based CPU work in a 440LX based motherboard, it wouldn't even surprise me at all if such CPU would work in a 440FX based motherboard (S8 PPro). Did PIII CPU heat up in that server board of yours and what core type/FSB of PIII have you tried in that system?
Motherboards (at least any decent one) aren't hard wired for 2.0V, the Vcore regulator uses a controller IC that supports one of the standardized VID ranges required by Intel. Older regulators have a range from 1.8V-3.5V, later ones (Coppermine compliant) go down to 1.30V and have finer steps in the lower part of their range.
The IC that controls Vcore is likely the 20-pin at U17 that SSTV2 referred to on the opposite side of the MOSFETs and inductors. If it's not that one then look at the other 20-pin between the TX3 fan header and the ATX power connector.
If we assume that this board came originally with the 466MHz Celeron, then it has a good chance of containing a later regulator. I think once the updated spec for Coppermines was known, everybody started switching over to the updated controller ICs and just used them everywhere. There may not have been any difference in the cost.
The 2 most surprising places I've found a Coppermine regulator IC were on a Super Socket 7 board and on a Baby-AT 440LX board. The latter still had issues with BIOS support though, and the former, well it's not a P3 compatible socket obviously. 😀
BIOS support is a potential roadblock, but if your board can run the required Vcore range then that can be explored further.
I'm sorry that you've never encounter it.
Your lack of experience is not my responsibility.
You might try reading the original spec instead of the update that came out a year later.
The OP's board is Asus.
If it could support P3 later on it would be out of character for Asus not to come out with a BIOS update with the P3 microcode.
There is none.
Additionally with all the die-hard Asus fanatics out there if it were possible to upgrade it there would articles or posts online telling how.
There are none.
I remember this one because it was my first ever dual CPU board.
Early N440BX will not boot at all with a P3.
I just doesn't work.
That's swapping a 450@100MHz P2 to a 450@100MHz P3. (Both are 2v CPUs too.)
I REALLY wanted that one to work out as P3's were NOT cheap in 1999.
The 370 board I mentioned was a different brand but specs wise identical to the OP's.
It came original with a 533 Mendocino and yes it had the ATI chip too.
No boot with a P3 or even a higher Celeron.
No interest in that one then. It went in a junk box and was replaced with a P4.
I experienced it first hand and I can care less if you believe it or not.
If you are so certain I'm wrong then put your OWN money where you mouth is, snag one off ebay (there are several) and you show me.
Short of that you are just blowing smoke about something you have no experience with.
The image is from documentation dated Oct 2000.
WELL past the time Intel (who like Asus) would have updated the BIOS for P3 if it were even possible.
Intel tends to support their server parts for a long time post sales.
Do you guys actually believe that Intel is going to blow-off a new BIOS for BX boards that only support P2 to allow them to use P3 right at a time they are trying to sell P3?
That they did not confirms my experience. It doesn't work.
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GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
I'm sorry that you've never encounter it.
Your lack of experience is not my responsibility.
I have expected at least a constructive argument from you @PCBONEZ about the incompatibility issue of early stepping 440BX chipsets with PIII CPUs, that you have claimed, but istead of receiving one, I got insulted personally due to my "lack of experience". We can both play this game, buddy.
PCBONEZ wrote:
The OP's board is Asus.
That's right, and Asus company was and still is known for not being a slacker in motherboard designing and manufacturing field, OPs motherboard was already made future proof, because a 440BX chipset was never meant for mendocino Celerons only, in the first place. Check its FSB selection table, why would they bother including a 133MHz FSB option for Celeron only MB at the time before PIII even officially supported it? OP only needs to check for continuity between RESET pins on the socket and this argument of PIII CPUs being incompatible with it will be officially laid to rest.
PCBONEZ wrote:
You might try reading the original spec instead of the update that came out a year later.
That doesn't make any sense, what will you have to compare the earliest documentation to, back when the PIII CPUs didn't even exist yet, that's just genius... I'd provided you the latest specifications change document for i440BX chips that I could find, which list all the differences between B1 and C1 stepping chips.
PCBONEZ wrote:
If it could support P3 later on it would be out of character for Asus not to come out with a BIOS update with the P3 microcode.
There is none.
That might be true, but it can be checked anytime by inspecting CPU uCode table in its latest BIOS, even if it's not there, that is the least issue of the mod procedure for the proper CPU support.
PCBONEZ wrote:
Additionally with all the die-hard Asus fanatics out there if it were possible to upgrade it there would articles or posts online telling how.
There are none.
The how-to mod guides for PPGA only motherboards to support FCPGA CPUs are universal and are all over the place to this day...
About your experience with Intel server board, it would not surprise me at all if the original chipset creator would make older boards incompatibe with newer CPUs intentionally, it's not the first and the last time Intel pulled such stunt on consumers, but your case of artificially-incompatible-made motherboard does not prove that early steppings of a 440BX chipset were incompatible with PIIIs. The table you'd attached doesn't show clear motherboard revisions for both PII-only and PII/PIII N440BXs, they had to change something in hardware level to make MB compatible with PIII, but I'm sure you already know all of this.
PCBONEZ wrote:The 370 board I mentioned was a different brand but specs wise identical to the OP's.
It came original with a 533 Mendocino and […] Show full quote
The 370 board I mentioned was a different brand but specs wise identical to the OP's.
It came original with a 533 Mendocino and yes it had the ATI chip too.
No boot with a P3 or even a higher Celeron.
No interest in that one then. It went in a junk box and was replaced with a P4.
I experienced it first hand and I can care less if you believe it or not.
You clearly lacked the experience back then, but I'm sure you'd figure out how to tackle such issue now 😉
PCBONEZ wrote:
If you are so certain I'm wrong then put your OWN money where you mouth is, snag one off ebay (there are several) and you show me.
Short of that you are just blowing smoke about something you have no experience with.
I won't waste nor my time, nor my money on some low-end motherboard just to please you, but I've cared enough and made some screenshots and photos of an ACER V66XA OEM motherboard, that is based on an early B1 stepping 440BX chipset with a working PIII Katmai on it.
This motherboard is based on a B1 stepping 440BX, it's OEM, never had BIOS updates for PIII CPU support from either of three companies that used it (ACER, Siemens and IBM), yet a proof of a working system of such config is in front of your eyes. Your arguments are invalid.
See in your screenshot where you highlighted where it says B1?
See right next to it where it says REVISION 2.
Thank you so much for solid proof that the board you are playing with does not have the chip I'm talking about.
We needed more smoke in the room.
GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
I don't care, it's B1 stepping and if you can't tell the difference between IC's stepping and revision, that's just not my problem, I won't bother explaining that to you, because you'd still find some childlish excuse for my arguments no matter what. You got the visual proof of a motherboard, that is based on such stepping 440BX, which functions well with a PIII CPU, yet you still stick to your own nonsensical theories without providing any proof to back up them.
This is the first time I see someone claiming that there were early revisions of 440BX chips, that did not support PIII CPUs at all.
All he has claimed so far was something no one ever heared before. But hey, he fixed thousands of mainboards, so he must have lots of knowledge. 🤣 Seriously, he's apparently only telling nonsense.
PCBONEZ wrote:
Your lack of experience is not my responsibility.
And your tries to argue only by telling how experienced you are just shows that you know nothing at all.
Last edited by derSammler on 2019-12-01, 16:01. Edited 2 times in total.
i can't say for sure whether this board has the pins you describe (i will check later) , but the version I have had the 4mb rage iic, not the 8mb rage pro turbo. if that makes a difference.
My experience with early 440BX motherboards is that they work with Deschutes p2 and 100mhz 2.0v Katmai p3 (up to whatever multiplier was on the board) but some Mendocino on a slocket were an issue unless the BIOS included CpuID's specific for them. Something about having a H suffix in the CpuID string iirc
Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun
derSammler wrote:All he has claimed so far was something no one ever heared before. But hey, he fixed thousands of mainboards, so he must have lo […] Show full quote
SSTV2 wrote:
This is the first time I see someone claiming that there were early revisions of 440BX chips, that did not support PIII CPUs at all.
All he has claimed so far was something no one ever heared before. But hey, he fixed thousands of mainboards, so he must have lots of knowledge. 🤣 Seriously, he's apparently only telling nonsense.
PCBONEZ wrote:
Your lack of experience is not my responsibility.
And your tries to argue only by telling how experienced you are just shows that you know nothing at all.
Honestly, I don't know what triggered his rude reply to my second post in this thread, I'm just trying to think critically here, I never had an intention of exposing someone's ignorance and just wanted to find out more about the theory, that PCBONEZ introduced. Truce @PCBONEZ?
Cobra42898 wrote:
i can't say for sure whether this board has the pins you describe (i will check later) , but the version I have had the 4mb rage iic, not the 8mb rage pro turbo. if that makes a difference.
Here's the modding guide for PPGA-only motherboards/slotkets. If pins @ AH4 and X4 coordinates are connected and pin AM2 is disconnected from ground, you have a motherboard, that's already electrically compatible with FCPGA CPUs (at least socket vise).
Honestly, I don't know what triggered his rude reply to my second post in this thread
He reacted similar in other threads, with only telling about his great experience when being asked for details or contradicting. He also already showed his lack of knowledge elsewhere, so don't expect too much.
There's no question that you are right. Every chipset for the Pentium II will also support a Katmai Pentium III, as neither the BIOS nor the chipset will even see any difference between them. Coppermine was the first to have additional requirements compared to the Pentium II.
