VOGONS


Reply 20 of 30, by Stiletto

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
cyclone3d wrote on 2020-02-27, 15:50:

Those Seagate SSHDs are junk. I tired a few a couple years ago to try and save money over buying large SSDs.

I was the genius who tried a 2.5" Seagate "FireCuda" 2.0 TB SSHD as a boot drive in a laptop known for overheating (and am too lazy to gut the thing and refurbish the TIM and cooling fans)... Bricked the drive in less than 2 weeks.

Anyhow that's kinda getting off topic.

"I see a little silhouette-o of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you
do the Fandango!" - Queen

Stiletto

Reply 21 of 30, by Baoran

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

I was running a win95/win98 pc 24/7 in 1997-2000 and PCs running it were never really the most stable. I was pretty much forced to reboot the system every 2 weeks or so because it became slower and started freezing and I was forced to re-install windows pretty much once a year. During that time I used it in a Pentium and in a Pentium 2 systems. Both systems had good quality motherboards. Pentium system had Intel 430FX Triton motherboard and P2 system had Asus P2B that has 440BX chipset.

Win9x never has been most reliable OS, but you can improve it by doing clean install and only the software you absolutely need and nothing more.

Reply 22 of 30, by ragefury32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Jo22 wrote on 2020-02-28, 05:39:
Well, a friend (Linux fan) once had to install Windows XP for his girl friend on a Macintosh (using BootCamp ?). According to hi […]
Show full quote

Well, a friend (Linux fan) once had to install Windows XP for his girl friend on a Macintosh (using BootCamp ?).
According to him, if memory serves, he was positively surprised that Windows XP ran without issues on that Macintosh.
In fact, he newer saw Windows running so smooth and stable. 😀

And speaking of SoftWindows 98, I wasn't completely kidding - it has a working pass-through feature for Voodoo 1 / Voodoo 2. 😀
So far, I haven't encountered any issue there as well. However, I'm not playing much 3D games also. 🙁
Though for real "gaming" (my English teacher would cry because of that term, btw) a CPU upgrade likely would be necessary (GHz range). 😐

Oh god, I hate responding to forum posts with multiple quote tags.

Eh, that's a different kind of Mac running on a different kind of hardware. SoftWindows 98 runs on PowerPC Macs using MacOS Classic (9.x or below) - it's emulating x86 while working around MacOS classic (which before MacOS X was like a frankenstein Apple equivalent of Windows 3.0 with all sorts of hacks applied to keep it running). If your copy of MacOS classic has all sorts of system extensions and stuff added to it, it's unstable. And given the fact that it's cooperative multitasking, a single badly behaved app can take down/lock up a system.
As for CPUs...you don't play around much with the OldWorld PowerPC Macs, do you? If your machine is old enough to use SoftWindows 98 and a PCI slot to take a Voodoo or 2...eh, it's probably not going to have too many options to have economical Gigahertz CPU upgrades that plays well in OS9 without another system extension added (or if it exists at all).

Bootcamp on the other hand is just multi-booting off x86/x64 Mac hardware - it's just another OS in EFI. Considering that Macs since 2006 has been EFI and somewhat legacy-free, yeah, it would run Windows just fine. Hell, Apple knows exactly what hardware goes into them and can optimize the drivers for them. MacOS X is also a much better UNIX-like OS with modern features like pre-emptive multitasking, so you are comparing a cake...with the contents of the Chernobyl Sarcophagus.

This strategy doesn't always translate to a better experience, though. The 2017+ MacBook Pros have tweaks to their wattage/P-state ramp-up schedules to prevent them from thermal throttling in MacOS (but it also messes with their CPU throughput for the sake of longer battery life/cooler running) to compensate for their rather lackluster heatsink/fan setup - it's an old trick. If you've ever used NoteBook Hardware Control on Pentium-M machines with XP to extend battery runtime/cool the machine down, it's the same idea.

On modern Windows the ramp-up tables/tweaks don't exist (or at least, Apple either didn't do the tweaks or know where to do them), so they'll run faster on higher wattage, hit a thermal wall and then throttle back.

cyclone3d wrote on 2020-02-27, 15:50:
Those Seagate SSHDs are junk. I tired a few a couple years ago to try and save money over buying large SSDs. […]
Show full quote

Those Seagate SSHDs are junk. I tired a few a couple years ago to try and save money over buying large SSDs.

Super slow and might as well just buy an HDD.

You're thinking of the very old Momentus XT, aren't you ? 😉
- That was a 2,5" laptop drive series that was, according to some user reports of the day, plaqued with data loss, noise (constant spin-up/-down),
and a too small SSD cache (4GB ?)... Last thing I heard was that a firmware update was released to address some of the issues.

Eh, even the modern Firecuda SSHD will be crushed by a cheap SATA/mSATA SSD performance-wise. The argument for having them back then is more of an extra, cost effective performance boost for large 3.5" capacity drives (2TB+), and even then, Seagate does something really silly like giving them 8GB SSDs and 5900rpm spindles. Frankly, given a choice between faster response for certain tasks and more capacity, I would rather spend the money on a faster running spindle and more capacity.
For 2.5" drives the price for a 1TB Firecuda is almost the same as a 1TB Crucial MX500, so they are not even that price competitive nowadays.

And like I've said before...for Windows 98 on those old school machines, you don't really need the extra capacity - The PIIX4 southrbridge common to the 440 chipsets cannot address more than 137GB (they are LBA28, not LBA48) and neither can the oldschool ALI M1533 southbridges common to the K6s, so buying them any drives over 128GB is a waste. (Note: yes, you can use the capacity over the LBA28/137GB boundary, but any operation will be done via polled I/O and NOT DMA, so lower throughput, more CPU pegging, bad news bear that you want to avoid. Okay?)

In fact, if you watch Phil's video on the SSHDs and pay attention (which was recorded 4 years ago when SSDs were MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE and SSHD demonstrated a performance boost over normal spinners) you would see that he actually had to manually tweak the BIOS on the 440 based PIII boards so it only uses 32GB (instead of the full 200GB capacity).

Considering that you can buy Vaseky 128GB mSATA drives new today off Newegg for about 22 USD, and mSATA to IDE40/44 enclosures for 15 USD on Amazon, it doesn't make any sense to use SSHDs unless you have them laying around. With the exception of my Thinkpad 560Es and the Pismo Powerbook (both using Class V3 MicroSDXC for easier access to drive contents), all of my retro PATA laptops use the mSATA+cheap SSD approach.

Reply 23 of 30, by halls_well

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
the_ultra_code wrote on 2020-02-28, 05:23:
I forgot to mention that too. You should always update DirectX to at least DX7. However, if you are doing more of a late 98 mach […]
Show full quote
halls_well wrote on 2020-02-28, 02:20:

I'll update those programs hopefully I can find them around somewhere! I was looking at which DirectX to go with as well, along with the user-supported Service Pack. There's a ton out there to sift through!

I forgot to mention that too. You should always update DirectX to at least DX7. However, if you are doing more of a late 98 machine, then DX9 is perfectly fine. However, I'd recommend against those "service packs." They are unofficial in nature, and can be a bit sketchy.

Also, to make it simple, here's all of that software I was talking about, and then some. (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13fTRz … fTv?usp=sharing)

halls_well wrote on 2020-02-28, 02:20:

* edit to add thanks for the advice on formatting tools! My old CD wallet has a WD Data Lifeguard disk, which let me create the 120GB FAT32 partition without issues!

No problem. 😁

Thanks for the links!! I'm downloading now, along with Daemon tools and a few games to try out, fingers crossed... MotoRacer didn't like my Radeon 7000, hopefully DirectX fixes it. I've got my router running an unsecured network share that's been perfect for transferring to/from the machine quickly.

For storage, it sounds like plain old SSD makes the most sense - 120GB is super cheap, and you can mitigate the Windows swap file wearing out the SSD from what I've been reading around here. I have an old 60GB SSD I paid way too much for that will be perfect for this task 😁

Stiletto wrote on 2020-02-28, 06:32:
cyclone3d wrote on 2020-02-27, 15:50:

Those Seagate SSHDs are junk. I tired a few a couple years ago to try and save money over buying large SSDs.

I was the genius who tried a 2.5" Seagate "FireCuda" 2.0 TB SSHD as a boot drive in a laptop known for overheating (and am too lazy to gut the thing and refurbish the TIM and cooling fans)... Bricked the drive in less than 2 weeks.

Anyhow that's kinda getting off topic.

Yeesh is it dead dead? No bringing it back? I'd almost want to RMA that, no drive should die that quickly, at least without raising some SMART warnings!!

Thanks again everyone, I am thoroughly enjoying this machine 😁 One bit of "bad" news though - I finally found that the PWM chip on my board (HIP6019BCB on my particular Asus P2B 1.10 for anyone on Google looking for answers) is good for Coppermine, so now I really need to get off eBay before I have a new Pentium 3...

Reply 24 of 30, by ultra_code

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
halls_well wrote on 2020-02-29, 02:12:

Thanks for the links!! I'm downloading now, along with Daemon tools and a few games to try out, fingers crossed...

Heh. I've heard that Daemon Tools under 98 isn't the best when it comes to reading disc images. Ideally you would want to find a copy and license for an older version of Alcohol 120%. However, I've never worried about this, since I'm fine using physical discs for games. 😜

Builds
ttgwnt-6.png
kcxlg9-6.png

Reply 25 of 30, by aaronkatrini

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Imo Intel i440BX motherboard is the gold standard for Win98.
But if you can find cheaper i440LX or any Socket 370 with VIA chipset you should be good.
Also IMO the 3dfx Voodoo 3 is one of the best Graphic Cards for Win98, but they don't come cheap, so maybe you can get a better deal on a GF2Mx. 256Mb of memory should be enough. And also, for better stability get one of those CF to IDE adapters and fastest 8-16GB CF you can find. Last but not least, new decent Psu. Cheers!

Reply 26 of 30, by th1r5bvn23

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Personally I'm pretty happy with what I got in my signature. FIC was invested by VIA in some way, so they made the best use of VIA chipsets, in this case, MVP3 chipsets. Except one minor problem, that my DVD-RW drive didn't want to work with DMA enabled, my experience of this setup is very positive. I even managed to get both Aureal Vortex 2 and SB16 work without any issue.
I love SS7 because of its versatility. It can be easily slowed down to 386 speed. According to PhilsComputerLab, Slot 1 machines are either too fast or too slow. In terms of stability, I agree that 440BX is much more stable than any other platform. I have an Asus P3B-F paired with a Coppermine Pentium III 1000B (SL4BS, 133MHz FSB), which is extremely fast and stable though FSB is overclocked.
As for SS7, there's another good chipset ALi Aladdin V. It has better features and is relatively more stable, though its AGP implementation is also dodgy. Gigabyte GA-5AX is one of the best motherboards utilize this chipset.

AMD K6-2+ 500, FIC PA-2013 2.0 (1MB cache), 128MB SDRAM PC100, Voodoo3 3000 AGP, Labway Yamaha YMF719B-S with NEC XR385
AMD Athlon 64 3000+, ECS K8M800-M3, 512MB DDR 400, GeForce FX 5200, SoundBlaster Live! SB0060

Reply 27 of 30, by halls_well

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
the_ultra_code wrote on 2020-02-29, 20:51:
halls_well wrote on 2020-02-29, 02:12:

Thanks for the links!! I'm downloading now, along with Daemon tools and a few games to try out, fingers crossed...

Heh. I've heard that Daemon Tools under 98 isn't the best when it comes to reading disc images. Ideally you would want to find a copy and license for an older version of Alcohol 120%. However, I've never worried about this, since I'm fine using physical discs for games. 😜

Yeah, I remember Daemon Tools being "suspect" back in the day too, but it beat trying to coax the scratched-to-hell CD you had to get to work, generally. And I have no shortage of scratched-to-hell CD's, this pic is several layers deep

aaronkatrini wrote on 2020-02-29, 23:31:

Imo Intel i440BX motherboard is the gold standard for Win98.
But if you can find cheaper i440LX or any Socket 370 with VIA chipset you should be good.
Also IMO the 3dfx Voodoo 3 is one of the best Graphic Cards for Win98, but they don't come cheap, so maybe you can get a better deal on a GF2Mx. 256Mb of memory should be enough. And also, for better stability get one of those CF to IDE adapters and fastest 8-16GB CF you can find. Last but not least, new decent Psu. Cheers!

440 is what I've got! It also seems like the right choice based on all the feedback here 😁 I was hoping to do this all with items that I had "on-hand" but now I can't stop myself from eyeing some nicer RAM and a passively cooled Coppermine Pentium to replace my Celeron 333. My Voodoo 3 AND ti4600 walked off years ago, so now I have Permedia II, Stealth S220, Radeon 7000 and a GeForce 5900XT to choose from 🙁. New PSU (old Thermaltake 420 is still running but I don't trust it entirely) and some kind of flash storage are also on my list!

th1r5bvn23 wrote on 2020-03-01, 00:30:

Personally I'm pretty happy with what I got in my signature. FIC was invested by VIA in some way, so they made the best use of VIA chipsets, in this case, MVP3 chipsets. Except one minor problem, that my DVD-RW drive didn't want to work with DMA enabled, my experience of this setup is very positive. I even managed to get both Aureal Vortex 2 and SB16 work without any issue.
I love SS7 because of its versatility. It can be easily slowed down to 386 speed. According to PhilsComputerLab, Slot 1 machines are either too fast or too slow. In terms of stability, I agree that 440BX is much more stable than any other platform. I have an Asus P3B-F paired with a Coppermine Pentium III 1000B (SL4BS, 133MHz FSB), which is extremely fast and stable though FSB is overclocked.
As for SS7, there's another good chipset ALi Aladdin V. It has better features and is relatively more stable, though its AGP implementation is also dodgy. Gigabyte GA-5AX is one of the best motherboards utilize this chipset.

Yes, I've got an MVP3 SS7 board, and wanted to use it because it was the first board + CPU i picked out and built myself, but it just didn't want to play nice with my hardware. This Intel 440 board has "just worked" with all of my hardware and no driver problems, the K6-2 did not 🙁, including my Aureal Vortex Value "computer show special". Hopefully I never need to slow it down, "my computer is too fast" isn't a problem I've had much in life 😁 Thanks for the tips though!

Attachments

  • IMG_5158.jpg
    Filename
    IMG_5158.jpg
    File size
    604.42 KiB
    Views
    657 views
    File license
    Public domain

Reply 28 of 30, by aaronkatrini

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

The Radeon 7000 would me more period-correct, but performance wise the 5900xt is miles ahead. I'd go for the second.
Also btw that Stealth 220 is really great card to have in the collection.

Reply 29 of 30, by Stiletto

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
halls_well wrote on 2020-02-29, 02:12:
Stiletto wrote on 2020-02-28, 06:32:
cyclone3d wrote on 2020-02-27, 15:50:

Those Seagate SSHDs are junk. I tired a few a couple years ago to try and save money over buying large SSDs.

I was the genius who tried a 2.5" Seagate "FireCuda" 2.0 TB SSHD as a boot drive in a laptop known for overheating (and am too lazy to gut the thing and refurbish the TIM and cooling fans)... Bricked the drive in less than 2 weeks.

Yeesh is it dead dead? No bringing it back? I'd almost want to RMA that, no drive should die that quickly, at least without raising some SMART warnings!!

Yes, I still intend to RMA it to see if they'll replace it. Massive overthermal tho so they might not.

"I see a little silhouette-o of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you
do the Fandango!" - Queen

Stiletto

Reply 30 of 30, by halls_well

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Thanks aaronkatrini! I'm going to keep the Radeon 7000 in for now due to lower power usage, until I get a chance to evaluate my 16 year old Thermaltake PSU, then I may spice things up with that 5900 😁 I'm definitely hanging onto that Stealth II card, it looks like another good option for a system you want to "Just work".

Good luck on the RMA Stiletto, IMO if they are selling a heat-sensitive device without thermal protections and a warranty, they should make good on that warranty!

I'm getting this rig cased up tonight, I can't wait any longer for the CF card that's held up in shipping and this HDD seems good enough to get some gaming going 😁

Thanks again everyone!!