I have had a hard time finding windows 98 drivers for pentium 4 based systems

I have a wide range of pentium 4 desktops and drivers are a problem

so I had settled on building my 98 gaming rig around a pentium 2 and my riva tnt 2 agp card

CBM wrote on 2021-03-10, 04:14:

I have had a hard time finding windows 98 drivers for pentium 4 based systems

I have a wide range of pentium 4 desktops and drivers are a problem

so I had settled on building my 98 gaming rig around a pentium 2 and my riva tnt 2 agp card

E.g. what? Motherboards?

Retrojanusz wrote on 2021-03-05, 15:41:

However, the not-too-fun practice of slapping silly prices on retro hardware that got somewhat popular due to influencer activit […]
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However, the not-too-fun practice of slapping silly prices on retro hardware that got somewhat popular due to influencer activity is really hard to stomach and I am looking for components that are still "kinda" under the radar.

Thus, I ask you for recommendations on:

- Processors (pentium 3 has been recommended to me);
- Motherboards (looking for reliable ones, old MOBOs are notorious for breaking down)
- RAM - not much expectations here, also RAM is mostly cheap even if it's retro, but would like to know the optimal route
- GPU - I've been told to look for Geforce 4 or 5, such as 4200Ti, but those are unfortunately plagued by retro tax and are priced similar to cards like geforce 1050Ti (before the mining crisis, that is) which I find ridiculous.

It might be the place where you live (or where I live?). The Geforce 4 and 5, unless it's the high end stuff generally aren't prced particularly high. I often see Ti4200 series for less than 20$ (sometimes less than 10). Same for the FX, the 5200 and 5500 are generally cheaper than the Ti4200. Somewhere around 10$ and I often see them for cheaper..

If you however want something really cheap, go for a s478 Pentium 4 based build with Geforce MX440 (128bit version) and an Ensonique AudioPCI/Sound Blaster 128 PCI with 512MB DDR333. You can find these dirt cheap or maybe even free. Just get a thrown out P4 era office PC, add a sound card and graphics card (though these sometimes have Geforce MX or FX5200). Performace should be decent enough even for late Windows 98 or early XP era games.

RandomStranger wrote on 2021-03-10, 06:24:

Ensonique AudioPCI/Sound Blaster 128 PCI

I'm genuinely curious, why would anyone recommend this in good faith?

Those cards are barely any cheaper than a SBLive (e.g. 5 EUR vs. 10 EUR) while providing a significantly worse feature set. No hardware EAX, absolutely awful FM synth emulation and mediocre General MIDI based on ECW sets, with no support for loading soundfonts.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-03-10, 06:32:

I'm genuinely curious, why would anyone recommend this in good faith?

Those cards are barely any cheaper than a SBLive (e.g. 5 EUR vs. 10 EUR) while providing a significantly worse feature set. No hardware EAX, absolutely awful FM synth emulation and mediocre General MIDI based on ECW sets, with no support for loading soundfonts.

This must also be a question of geography. Where I live the AudioPCI/SB128 goes between 0-2$. I have two both for free. The Sound Blaster Live! is generally between 5-10$. It's still cheap (absolutely), but expensive compared to the former. I considered recommending that, but if the Ti4200 is too expensive where OP lives, I assumed a decent Sound Blaster would be too. And if it's strictly for Windows 98 and Windows games, the AudioPCI is decent enough and better than the on-board solutions.

RandomStranger wrote on 2021-03-10, 06:41:

And if it's strictly for Windows 98 and Windows games, the AudioPCI is decent enough and better than the on-board solutions.

As someone who has used that card for 4 years back in the day, I cannot agree.

No hardware EAX support means the card taxes your CPU which reduces performance in games. It also sounds noticeably worse than proper hardware EAX. The drivers are pretty bad too. I used to have BSODs quite frequently and, per the error codes, they were mostly related to sound. And as mentioned above, DOS compatibility is a joke.

Definitively not worth saving any money on this when significantly better cards can be acquired for just a few more bucks.

CBM wrote on 2021-03-10, 04:14:

I have had a hard time finding windows 98 drivers for pentium 4 based systems

I have a wide range of pentium 4 desktops and drivers are a problem

so I had settled on building my 98 gaming rig around a pentium 2 and my riva tnt 2 agp card

I am very surprised to hear this.
I have never had any problem finding Win98se drivers for S478 boards.

The best sound card for windows 98 IMO is the Audigy 2 ZS. You can find it no problem for 20$ and the sound quality is almost too good. Just make sure to install the VXD driver manually from device manager.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-03-10, 07:14:

As someone who has used that card for 4 years back in the day, I cannot agree.

No hardware EAX support means the card taxes your CPU which reduces performance in games. It also sounds noticeably worse than proper hardware EAX. The drivers are pretty bad too. I used to have BSODs quite frequently and, per the error codes, they were mostly related to sound. And as mentioned above, DOS compatibility is a joke.

Definitively not worth saving any money on this when significantly better cards can be acquired for just a few more bucks.

Maybe yours were a faulty one? I never experienced BSODs with them.
Also OP already has both a dedicated DOS PC and a salvaged SB Live! so it doesn't really matter.

RandomStranger wrote on 2021-03-10, 07:27:

Maybe yours were a faulty one? I never experienced BSODs with them.

I remember not having any problems with it on Linux, so it wasn't a hardware issue. That said, I used it on a VIA motherboard back then, which might have contributed to the BSOD frequency under Win98.

As for the OP, if you're going to use this rig purely for Windows gaming, go with either a SBLive or an Audigy2 ZS. The latter has a slight edge in terms of audio clarity, but both are fine cards.

I have a SB Live, actually. It has spent like 15 years in my drawer, and should be working. So I don't have to buy a soundcard, fortunately. One thing less to worry about.

My main concern is the reliability of those old GPUs and MoBos. I don't think they will last long, the hardware of that age was pretty damn faulty. It was kinda between the ever-resilient pre-Pentium era and the higher standard stuff we have today, eh? The old stuff was likely resilient due to low clock speeds, thus no heat problems.

Retrojanusz wrote on 2021-03-10, 14:03:

I have a SB Live, actually. It has spent like 15 years in my drawer, and should be working. So I don't have to buy a soundcard, fortunately. One thing less to worry about.

My main concern is the reliability of those old GPUs and MoBos. I don't think they will last long, the hardware of that age was pretty damn faulty. It was kinda between the ever-resilient pre-Pentium era and the higher standard stuff we have today, eh? The old stuff was likely resilient due to low clock speeds, thus no heat problems.

The old stuff can be seen as more resilient due to several factors, one being that (in the case of graphics cards) the PCBs were simply smaller and didn't yet have those enormous coolers mounted weighing them down. Perhaps the solder back then was of better quality (still contained lead) and perhaps parts had better tolerance for relatively poor signal quality. Tossing around a PCI Virge may have a smaller chance at damaging the actual card then tossing around a 8800GTX with stock brick-shaped heatpipe cooler has and CPU pins were definitely easier to correct in older CPUs where in more recent the CPU pins are perhaps easier to break.
The lower heat output can also be a factor.

Btw, I do want to stress that the reverse may also be the case in many situations.

Retrojanusz wrote on 2021-03-05, 15:41:

As you probably know, there's a lot of old gems that aren't on GoG, and just refuse to work on modern PCs except virtual machines - which are usually unplayable anyway (stutter).

The big question is: which games are you thinking of here, and do you actually want to play them? Often if no one has bothered with some sort of patch, fix, or "remaster" for modern PCs, there's a good reason – and something that is problematic on new hardware isn't necessarily going to play well with older PCs either. No matter what hardware you choose, you'll always be able to find something that doesn't quite work as well as it would on some other hardware.

Jorpho wrote on 2021-03-10, 15:18:

The big question is: which games are you thinking of here, and do you actually want to play them?

Of course ! Retro gaming is my biggest hobby in life. I own numerous consoles and video game systems, only missing a few overpriced ones (The Turbografx16 and the Neo Geo - sadly, those are really hard to buy in Europe- Neo Geo was never released in EU, TGX16 just wasn't popular and the only working everdrive for TGX16 actually only works on the basic NTSC model). I have the strongest feelings for DOS times, so Amiga1200, DOS machines and 4th generation of consoles (SNES and Mega Drive, prominently) are my favorites.

An example of game I would love to play and finish is SWIV 3D. Not on GoG, and will not work on a modern computer, will not work on 486DX either. It's win98-PC or bust with those kinds of games. Technically it's a Win95 game (release date 1996) but hopefully nothing stops me from getting dual boot, win98 and win95 both on that machine.

Retrojanusz wrote on 2021-03-10, 15:48:

I own numerous consoles and video game systems

There is no shortage of people these days who own lots of consoles and lots of games and who have "strong feelings" about the lot of them, but that never actually get around to playing any of them as they steadily accumulate. It's not a failing, it's just the way it is. That's why it's important to have a goal in mind, I think. If you want to play SWIV 3D, then you should find hardware that will definitely work with SWIV 3D.

It's win98-PC or bust with those kinds of games.

A quick Google suggests a patch exists.
https://www.zeus-software.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2230

Technically it's a Win95 game (release date 1996) but hopefully nothing stops me from getting dual boot, win98 and win95 both on that machine.

It is very unlikely you will find a game that will not run under Windows 98 and absolutely requires Windows 95 (especially considering Windows 95 has at least two major versions, depending on how you count them). But that is a consideration for further down the line.

I'll be quiet now.

Found another game that seems to really need a Win 98 machine.

Battle Isle 2 (or Battle Isle 2200 for US, IIRC?).

yes, it's on GoG. Nope, it doesn't work well at all. The music is screwed up, the pitch of MIDIs is completely wrong (doesn't hit they notes properly), much like the "soundtracks" people post on youtube.
I've played with dosbox settings for a while and nothing seems to help, neither [midi] settings nor [sblaster] types.

of course it might be GoG's source material that's botched but I still have the original CDs and it used to sound completely different on a Win98 machine 20 years ago.
(yes it's technically a DOS game. But IIRC it runs really slow on a 486 cpu. IIRC it was released at the peak of that awkward dos-win transition phase. Getting those games to work can be maddening).

Retrojanusz wrote on 2021-03-15, 21:41:

Found another game that seems to really need a Win 98 machine. […]
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Found another game that seems to really need a Win 98 machine.

Battle Isle 2 (or Battle Isle 2200 for US, IIRC?).

yes, it's on GoG. Nope, it doesn't work well at all. The music is screwed up, the pitch of MIDIs is completely wrong (doesn't hit they notes properly), much like the "soundtracks" people post on youtube.
I've played with dosbox settings for a while and nothing seems to help, neither [midi] settings nor [sblaster] types.

of course it might be GoG's source material that's botched but I still have the original CDs and it used to sound completely different on a Win98 machine 20 years ago.
(yes it's technically a DOS game. But IIRC it runs really slow on a 486 cpu. IIRC it was released at the peak of that awkward dos-win transition phase. Getting those games to work can be maddening).

dosbox and windows will use microsoft GS software synthesizer by default, which will sound decent enough if the midi music is general midi, but will sound like garbage if it is MT32 compatible or uses GS extensions.

You can emulate different midi devices with VST plugins or MUNT. My guess is that your memories of the music or tied to the sound card you owned, which will have its own sound font.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-15, 22:10:

dosbox and windows will use microsoft GS software synthesizer by default, which will sound decent enough if the midi music is general midi, but will sound like garbage if it is MT32 compatible or uses GS extensions.

You can emulate different midi devices with VST plugins or MUNT. My guess is that your memories of the music or tied to the sound card you owned, which will have its own sound font.

Thank you. it's probably the case.

Here's how it is SUPPOSED to sound (you don't need to listen to all. just check first 10 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WP4Qvx_BHg )

here's how it sounds when it's ripped improperly (or in GOG version) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxlSUiVzK2s&l … ED7C83F&index=2

there is something entirely wrong about this sound. Like, a lot of the sound is missing or something.

EDIT: just found this comment: "If you play GOG version, you have to change the executive command BATTLE2.EXE to BI2.BAT GM FAST and the off-key tracks are fixed 😁"

Huh, would never guess that it may fix the issue. Gotta try.

Retrojanusz wrote on 2021-03-15, 22:26:

Thank you. it's probably the case. […]
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mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-15, 22:10:

dosbox and windows will use microsoft GS software synthesizer by default, which will sound decent enough if the midi music is general midi, but will sound like garbage if it is MT32 compatible or uses GS extensions.

You can emulate different midi devices with VST plugins or MUNT. My guess is that your memories of the music or tied to the sound card you owned, which will have its own sound font.

Thank you. it's probably the case.

Here's how it is SUPPOSED to sound (you don't need to listen to all. just check first 10 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WP4Qvx_BHg )

here's how it sounds when it's ripped improperly (or in GOG version) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxlSUiVzK2s&l … ED7C83F&index=2

there is something entirely wrong about this sound. Like, a lot of the sound is missing or something.

EDIT: just found this comment: "If you play GOG version, you have to change the executive command BATTLE2.EXE to BI2.BAT GM FAST and the off-key tracks are fixed 😁"

Huh, would never guess that it may fix the issue. Gotta try.

Running the setup program again and selecting general midi would probably also work. If the setup program is included. You can play midi files on modern PCs just fine so it sounds like a configuration issue with the game.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-15, 22:34:

Running the setup program again and selecting general midi would probably also work. If the setup program is included. You can play midi files on modern PCs just fine so it sounds like a configuration issue with the game.

GM command fixed the sound. Crisis averted, Win98 machine may wait a bit. What the hell is "general midi" anyway and why does it sound so whack with whatever is default?

(yeah, taking the opportunity to educate myself here!)