Scythifuge wrote on 2021-05-18, 02:17:

Greetings, […]
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Greetings,

Does anyone know if there is a gigabit NIC with drivers for MS-DOS and WFW 3.11? I know that it is a shot in the dark, though I know that Win 3.x was still being used by some companies into the early 2000's, and that places still use MS-DOS for this or that, so I believe that it may be possible! I am building a 486 in tandem with working on my Ultimate P3 Retro build. Unlike the Ultimate Retro, I have extra slots available, as I am using a 3d Rage Pro for graphics (overkill, I know, though I have it on hand and it was the last ATI card with official Windows 3.x drivers.) The AWE32 CT2760 that I thought was fried with the last 4DPS, was able to be used in the Ultimate Retro build (I decided to test all of the components, one last time,) without any errors when setting it up. The only other card going in at the moment is a Roland MPU-IPC-T, leaving me with either one more ISA slot and PCI slot, or two PCI slots with no more ISA slots.

So I am thinking the fastest NIC I can find that has legacy support, and perhaps a USB card, using Bret Johnson's drivers. Or perhaps a sata card, as I know that there is a DOS driver that supports sata optical drives. I'm not going 100% period correct - I want games and apps to run as originally intended, though quality of life improvements and additions will b e welcome in both of these builds.

Thanks!
Scythifuge

Marvell Yukon Ethernet Controllers (models not specified, presumably all those produced before the driver was released) are supported at up to 1 Gigabit by the YUKODI driver from here http://www.georgpotthast.de/sioux/packet.htm .

EDIT : So are at least some Intel E1000 based cards by the corresponding Intel ODI driver .

darry wrote on 2021-05-18, 03:03:

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-05-18, 02:17:

Greetings, […]
Show full quote

Greetings,

Does anyone know if there is a gigabit NIC with drivers for MS-DOS and WFW 3.11? I know that it is a shot in the dark, though I know that Win 3.x was still being used by some companies into the early 2000's, and that places still use MS-DOS for this or that, so I believe that it may be possible! I am building a 486 in tandem with working on my Ultimate P3 Retro build. Unlike the Ultimate Retro, I have extra slots available, as I am using a 3d Rage Pro for graphics (overkill, I know, though I have it on hand and it was the last ATI card with official Windows 3.x drivers.) The AWE32 CT2760 that I thought was fried with the last 4DPS, was able to be used in the Ultimate Retro build (I decided to test all of the components, one last time,) without any errors when setting it up. The only other card going in at the moment is a Roland MPU-IPC-T, leaving me with either one more ISA slot and PCI slot, or two PCI slots with no more ISA slots.

So I am thinking the fastest NIC I can find that has legacy support, and perhaps a USB card, using Bret Johnson's drivers. Or perhaps a sata card, as I know that there is a DOS driver that supports sata optical drives. I'm not going 100% period correct - I want games and apps to run as originally intended, though quality of life improvements and additions will b e welcome in both of these builds.

Thanks!
Scythifuge

Marvell Yukon Ethernet Controllers (models not specified, presumably all those produced before the driver was released) are supported at up to 1 Gigabit by the YUKODI driver from here http://www.georgpotthast.de/sioux/packet.htm .

EDIT : So are at least some Intel E1000 based cards by the corresponding Intel ODI driver .

Thank you! So if DOS is supported, does that mean that they will work in Win 3.x? I'll start looking for cards on ebay!

What's the point of such a fast NIC? You're heavily limited by the speeds of PCI and the CPU. Just get a standard NIC like an NE2000 or RTL8029.

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-05-18, 03:14:

darry wrote on 2021-05-18, 03:03:

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-05-18, 02:17:

Greetings, […]
Show full quote

Greetings,

Does anyone know if there is a gigabit NIC with drivers for MS-DOS and WFW 3.11? I know that it is a shot in the dark, though I know that Win 3.x was still being used by some companies into the early 2000's, and that places still use MS-DOS for this or that, so I believe that it may be possible! I am building a 486 in tandem with working on my Ultimate P3 Retro build. Unlike the Ultimate Retro, I have extra slots available, as I am using a 3d Rage Pro for graphics (overkill, I know, though I have it on hand and it was the last ATI card with official Windows 3.x drivers.) The AWE32 CT2760 that I thought was fried with the last 4DPS, was able to be used in the Ultimate Retro build (I decided to test all of the components, one last time,) without any errors when setting it up. The only other card going in at the moment is a Roland MPU-IPC-T, leaving me with either one more ISA slot and PCI slot, or two PCI slots with no more ISA slots.

So I am thinking the fastest NIC I can find that has legacy support, and perhaps a USB card, using Bret Johnson's drivers. Or perhaps a sata card, as I know that there is a DOS driver that supports sata optical drives. I'm not going 100% period correct - I want games and apps to run as originally intended, though quality of life improvements and additions will b e welcome in both of these builds.

Thanks!
Scythifuge

Marvell Yukon Ethernet Controllers (models not specified, presumably all those produced before the driver was released) are supported at up to 1 Gigabit by the YUKODI driver from here http://www.georgpotthast.de/sioux/packet.htm .

EDIT : So are at least some Intel E1000 based cards by the corresponding Intel ODI driver .

Thank you! So if DOS is supported, does that mean that they will work in Win 3.x? I'll start looking for cards on ebay!

TBH, I don't know . Networking under WFW 3.11 was not something I dabbled in very much .

AFAIU, under WFW 3.11 you have 2 options for networking hardware support (someone please correct me if I am wrong)
a) native NDIS drivers
b) shim drivers that run over a real mode ODI or packet interface (you can even have multiple layers like a packet interface driver running over an ODI driver with winpkt running on top).

Additionally, if you intend to use TCP/IP through a Winsock type interface, you will need to either license something like Trumpet Winsock or find Microsoft's TCP/IP stack for Windows (no idea if that was ever freely downloadable or a paid extra).

That's pretty much all I know (and not all of that is necessarily accurate) .

I personally have no love/nostalgia for Windows 3.x (which I did use when it was current) or its WFW brother, so I hope you will forgive my lack of enthusiasm for those OSes. I do love DOS and Windows 9x and remember them fondly.

Good luck!

brian105 wrote on 2021-05-18, 03:21:

What's the point of such a fast NIC? You're heavily limited by the speeds of PCI and the CPU. Just get a standard NIC like an NE2000 or RTL8029.

Just because, hehe..

The wfw3.11 tcp/ip stack is free.

http://blog.becker.sc/2012/10/windows-311-for … oup-how-to.html

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-05-18, 05:39:

The wfw3.11 tcp/ip stack is free.

http://blog.becker.sc/2012/10/windows-311-for … oup-how-to.html

Thank you! I couldn't recall if I needed both the tcp/ip files and a driver file for the NIC itself under Windows 3.x.

Those drivers ODI darry linked are for dos, not native Windows drivers.
I'm not sure if windows supports these (never tired) and if they do its more of a compatibility/legacy setup.

Windows for workgroups 3.11 introduced Ndis3 and works more along the lines of later versions of windows and typically made up of 3 (or more) files. a .386 file, a .dos file and oemsetup.inf

just depends how much of a pure? windows setup your after.
Personally I'd go for a 100MB card with known good Windows drivers, 3.11 isn't a very forgiving OS when it comes to bad drivers and both Win3x and 486's will struggle to even reach 100MB.
Intel, 3Com, and yes even Realtek have good 3x drivers.

WfW 3.11 can use DOS NDIS2 drivers even for Gigabit NICs. You'll need to find the NDIS2 drivers for your NIC. Most manufacturers provided them until recently.

In the Windows Network setup, just direct the adapter installer to the location of the NDIS2 driver. WfW will add the DOS drivers to your autoexec.bat and link to them in Windows.

Bare in mind that the DOS NDIS2 network drivers can, and often do, use a lot of memory. You might want to run memmaker after installing the DOS drivers.

chinny22 wrote on 2021-05-18, 15:37:

Those drivers ODI darry linked are for dos, not native Windows drivers. I'm not sure if windows supports these (never tired) and […]
Show full quote

Those drivers ODI darry linked are for dos, not native Windows drivers.
I'm not sure if windows supports these (never tired) and if they do its more of a compatibility/legacy setup.

Windows for workgroups 3.11 introduced Ndis3 and works more along the lines of later versions of windows and typically made up of 3 (or more) files. a .386 file, a .dos file and oemsetup.inf

just depends how much of a pure? windows setup your after.
Personally I'd go for a 100MB card with known good Windows drivers, 3.11 isn't a very forgiving OS when it comes to bad drivers and both Win3x and 486's will struggle to even reach 100MB.
Intel, 3Com, and yes even Realtek have good 3x drivers.

I have a few 10/100 cards. I just like to see what I can do with old and new hardware.

fosterwj03 wrote on 2021-05-18, 16:11:

WfW 3.11 can use DOS NDIS2 drivers even for Gigabit NICs. You'll need to find the NDIS2 drivers for your NIC. Most manufacturers provided them until recently.

In the Windows Network setup, just direct the adapter installer to the location of the NDIS2 driver. WfW will add the DOS drivers to your autoexec.bat and link to them in Windows.

Bare in mind that the DOS NDIS2 network drivers can, and often do, use a lot of memory. You might want to run memmaker after installing the DOS drivers.

I usually use a multi-config.sys for certain things. I'll create a config just for networking.

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-05-18, 13:51:

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-05-18, 05:39:

The wfw3.11 tcp/ip stack is free.

http://blog.becker.sc/2012/10/windows-311-for … oup-how-to.html

Thank you! I couldn't recall if I needed both the tcp/ip files and a driver file for the NIC itself under Windows 3.x.

Nom worries man. Our memories are somewhat fragile an we drop or add bits on every know and again.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-05-18, 19:02:

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-05-18, 13:51:

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-05-18, 05:39:

The wfw3.11 tcp/ip stack is free.

http://blog.becker.sc/2012/10/windows-311-for … oup-how-to.html

Thank you! I couldn't recall if I needed both the tcp/ip files and a driver file for the NIC itself under Windows 3.x.

Nom worries man. Our memories are somewhat fragile an we drop or add bits on every know and again.

Indeed! I had an accident in 2016 and I have found that I have had to post more questions since then than I did prior to that date. It definitely takes me longer to work on these projects or to remember all of the nuances of working with retro systems and retro/modern hybrid systems, than it used to. I have been pushing myself to get back into it and stay in it!

Yah, I had something resembling the 'rona, early last year, didn't get badly sick, but damn if my memory don't seem a bit swiss cheesed since then.

Anyhoo, noticed there's an Intel gigabit chipset gets a mention on the crynwr DOS packet drivers page, so that would be a likely bet methinks, if it's not the one already mentioned above.

However, I'd guesstimate throughput is gonna have trouble topping about 400Mbit, and that's just to empty a RAM buffer or RAM disk, the rest will be HDD speed.

BitWrangler wrote on 2021-05-20, 02:27:

Yah, I had something resembling the 'rona, early last year, didn't get badly sick, but damn if my memory don't seem a bit swiss cheesed since then.

Anyhoo, noticed there's an Intel gigabit chipset gets a mention on the crynwr DOS packet drivers page, so that would be a likely bet methinks, if it's not the one already mentioned above.

However, I'd guesstimate throughput is gonna have trouble topping about 400Mbit, and that's just to empty a RAM buffer or RAM disk, the rest will be HDD speed.

Thank you for the information! I dug out a couple of old 10/100 NICs which I'm going to use for the moment while I look into the gigabit/crynwr options. I have a Pentium 60 machine here, a Pentium 133, a couple of socket 7's with at least one 166 MMX CPU that I need to test, and a Tabor II from a Gateway, with a Pentium II CPU lying around that I can pair up with my Voodoo3, and someone gave me a 17 inch monitor to test out. I also have a 19 inch Gateway monitor that is super dim, so I am going to buy a CRT tester and try to rejuvenate it. I have three or four PC cases and some other random parts, and will buy more CD and/or SD to IDE adapters. I'm going to put them all together, and will need NICs for some of them. Eventually, I want to set up a LAN to play some old school games like Doom, Blood, Quake, Warcraft, and some others. I may also look into building a server and see if I can use it for all of my systems, from the old to the new.

If you end up with 10 nic besure you route it through a 10/100 switch then you will have a reliable network connection with Gegabit connections.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-05-20, 03:01:

If you end up with 10 nic besure you route it through a 10/100 switch then you will have a reliable network connection with Gegabit connections.

I have a couple of DLink gigabit switches, one eight useable ports, and one with four. I have had them for along time and they have served me well, except that every once ion a while they will lock up, and I have to unplug the power and then plug it back in. I used to use most of the ports, though I have only have about five devices connected, so I should have enough ports to create a LAN for the retro projects. The main issue with the multiple retro-PC portion of the project is finding a monitor for each PC that currently doesn't have one, and I'll want to find CRT monitors, since most of the games and apps that will be running were designed for 70+Hz.

I've moved away from crts for my old rigs. The only one I have set up now is an EGA monitor on my XT Tupo set up. Manage to get a nice beigreNEC/Packard Bell beige 17" LCD monitor to use with my old stuff via kvm. Saves desk space. Also have a Sanyo LCD TV with multiple video inputs and it syncs down to the correct refresh rate for my Amiga A600 without any flicker at all. And of course crts use less electricity.

I do have and all-in-one Compaq Pentium 75 Compaq system out in the garage with 14" crt in it and a 19" Dell crt. I'll fire the Compaq up at some time. Quite happy with my current arrangement at the moment. All my old stuff can access the interweb via the 10/100 switch to the ISP router. I was having issues with some, not all, the older stuff, including my XT Turbo-486 systems, Acorn RiscPCs etc, until I put the 10/100 switch in between them and the ISP router. Every thing works great now with out any issues at all. Also have a 10mps hub under the10/100 switch I can put on to the network via the 10/100 switch for those nics only with network BNC connectors.

Above the 10/100 switch is 2 selection vga switch so I can switch from my dedicated irc system and what ever system I am working on At the moment it is an AcerAcrosss 486DX2/50 system. My Zenith 286LP Plus(286/12 running almost as fast as a clone 286/16) , with 8megs of ram running MS Dos 5, nic packte driver, winpkt, MS Windows 3.1, Trumpet Winsock 1.0a and PIRCH16 irc client is my dedicated irc set up.. This system is on 24/7 most of the time and still has spinning rust(hdd) as storage. It has a BackPack CDRom reader for getting extra files and LS120 drive daisy chained to the for extra storage and run extra programs if needed.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-05-20, 18:01:

I've moved away from crts for my old rigs. The only one I have set up now is an EGA monitor on my XT Tupo set up. Manage to get a nice beigreNEC/Packard Bell beige 17" LCD monitor to use with my old stuff via kvm. Saves desk space. Also have a Sanyo LCD TV with multiple video inputs and it syncs down to the correct refresh rate for my Amiga A600 without any flicker at all. And of course crts use less electricity.

I do have and all-in-one Compaq Pentium 75 Compaq system out in the garage with 14" crt in it and a 19" Dell crt. I'll fire the Compaq up at some time. Quite happy with my current arrangement at the moment. All my old stuff can access the interweb via the 10/100 switch to the ISP router. I was having issues with some, not all, the older stuff, including my XT Turbo-486 systems, Acorn RiscPCs etc, until I put the 10/100 switch in between them and the ISP router. Every thing works great now with out any issues at all. Also have a 10mps hub under the10/100 switch I can put on to the network via the 10/100 switch for those nics only with network BNC connectors.

Above the 10/100 switch is 2 selection vga switch so I can switch from my dedicated irc system and what ever system I am working on At the moment it is an AcerAcrosss 486DX2/50 system. My Zenith 286LP Plus(286/12 running almost as fast as a clone 286/16) , with 8megs of ram running MS Dos 5, nic packte driver, winpkt, MS Windows 3.1, Trumpet Winsock 1.0a and PIRCH16 irc client is my dedicated irc set up.. This system is on 24/7 most of the time and still has spinning rust(hdd) as storage. It has a BackPack CDRom reader for getting extra files and LS120 drive daisy chained to the for extra storage and run extra programs if needed.

Very nice! Thank you for sharing and describing your set up. It reminds me that I need to get a KVM with audio. I also have an LS-120 parallel port version. I bought two internal LS-120 drives, but one doesn't work at all, and the other one will read only 1.44mb floppies. I think it would be cool to run irc. I haven't used that since the 90's, and I am trying to recreate as much of the 90's as I can. I want to create a BBS and have people be able to dial into it.