VOGONS


Reply 140 of 269, by BloodyCactus

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

scsi2sd can use ISO images and show as scsi CDROM. you have to dump the iso directly to the partition, not as an iso file. but it shows up to the machine as a scsi cdrom and works. so the only downside is you cant easily "swap" iso images without removing the sd, and doing a DD to put a new image over the partition.

--/\-[ Stu : Bloody Cactus :: http://kråketær.com :: http://mega-tokyo.com ]-/\--

Reply 141 of 269, by Gmlb256

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I have one CD drive which is an LG CED-8120 CD-RW and it's doesn't sound like a jet engine without using CDBQ. The bad news is that you may have to use an specific CD driver for the music to work properly on DOS.

For CD drive emulators on DOS there are two which are SHSUCDHD (however it requires SHSUCDX) and FakeDriver 0.9 which allows the CD-ROM content to be copied into the hard drive and uses MSCDEX.

Reply 142 of 269, by Bondi

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

There is also MacSD http://macsd.com/index.php

Compatibility:
Most SCSI-equipped Macintosh computers
SCSI Manager
SCSI Manager 4.3
Windows 98
Windows XP
MS-DOS 6.22
Adaptec 29xx-series SCSI cards

PCMCIA Sound Cards chart

Reply 143 of 269, by cyclone3d

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

This topic comes up quite often. Here is an IDE emulator with audio support:
https://shop.tattiebogle.net/product/prod_EkTnv3Tk2Trxhf

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 144 of 269, by Datadrainer

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Finding a game box in the collection or the right bag of CD, then finding CD in it, then swapping CD when needed is, indeed, a true experience, but not especially the best one. As a kid I had plenty of time, but now, for my retro passion, I often take more time searching for a game than playing it (depends of the game of course). Just that, for me, justify an ODE. It has been covered before, but CD and CD drives are degrading over time. Yes, backup can be made. Yes, drives can be changed. Yes, PATA to SATA adapters exists. Yes, read speed can be reduced by software. But all of this does not change the fact that drive emulators are so much easier to use.
I think most of retro PC (DOS to Windows Me era) users are using CF or SD card accessible from the back or the front in there machines, not a real PATA HDD or a SATA adapted one or even a SSD. Because it's easier to put the card on an actual PC, extract what is needed, the plug it back to the old PC without having to open anything and it's easy to find small capacity SD or CF cards. So there is solutions for HDD, for floppies, why not for optical media? Strange...

I would like to see a good enough solution one day. MacSD, SCSI2SD or IDE Simulator are working great (with a few bugs for some) and their creators must be saluted, but they are not very practical to use.

For me, a useful ODE would be very similar to what is possible to do with a Gotek/HxC FD with FlashFloppy.
Here are the mandatory points I see:
* A 3.5" floppy drive form factor (adaptable to 5.25"bay with a mounting base)
* An USB or SD card interface accessible from the front with exFAT support
* CD+DVD ROM support
* Firmware update from the media
* An IDE interface [and SCSI2 interface] version
* Analog [and S/PDIF] audio output for link to sound card
* A screen and buttons+rotary encoder for easy navigation
* A firmware support of common image files (iso and cue+bin of course but also CloneCD (ccd+img+sub) and DT (mds+mdf))
* A 100% compatibility with common DOS IDE driver (OAKCDROM.SYS, UDVD2.SYS, etc)
* A choice of bezel of different colors to match most machines

An all-in-one HDD+CD-ROM+Floppy emulator connected to a floppy and PATA port acting as M/S with an efficient menu to load images would be even better. Maybe one day my dream will come true, but for now having at least what I describe here would be awesome, but there is nothing far from it. That's sad, but it's life.

Knowing things is great. Understanding things is better. Creating things is even better.

Reply 145 of 269, by cyclone3d

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Even with an encoder wheel, it is going to get annoying to use when there are a huge number of images in play.

Better would be a setup where you could hook a larger external monitor to the emulator. That way you could have a really good menu.

For that matter, it could be a complete mini-pc of some sort where you could hook up a mouse and keyboard as well.

Or you could have a small TSR on the computer that the emulator is installed on with a hotkey combo that brings up an overlay with the menu so you can swap images, etc.

How's that for a pipedream?

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 147 of 269, by Boohyaka

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

the way i've dreamt it would be something that was still meant for a 5.25" drive enclosure, with a nice oled screen, controls and accessible USB/card slot(s).
Basically a bit like a GoTek+oled, but something more refined that would make good use of the extra space offered by a 5.25" slot. one can dream 😁

Reply 148 of 269, by cyclone3d

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Oh, hey. Let's go a step further....

Add Wifi and possibly Wired network capability so you can load images over the network.

Along with a mobile app it would be a really sweet setup and really expensive.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 149 of 269, by Datadrainer

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-09-14, 16:12:

Oh, hey. Let's go a step further....

Add Wifi and possibly Wired network capability so you can load images over the network.

Along with a mobile app it would be a really sweet setup and really expensive.

Price is not a matter of dreams 😉

More seriously, a question may be asked. What can be considered retro hardware? I mean at what point have we a new computer with old technologies instead of an old computer with new technologies?

I see things like that: people want to rediscover the sensations of the time as they remember them, with all the biases that entails. With nostalgia comes the embellishment of things. So from my point of view, modding an old PC, in a certain point, allows to match memories with the reality of the object. And it also allows to link it to what is usual today, increasing the effect of well-being. That's why I wrote my little story before. I understand perfectly well people who wants to bring back old memories, and does not want the side part (searching a CD in my example).
Some people with old hardware want to add new technologies (eg. Flash memories + emulator or adapters)
Some having a MiSTer want to plug in a real CD-ROM drive / floppy drive / cartridge port.
All of that is respectable. And all of that is related to the domain dreams. Sometime becoming reality.
But isn't the modern world around us not a proof a that. So why not dreaming? Who knows what can happen.

Knowing things is great. Understanding things is better. Creating things is even better.

Reply 150 of 269, by SmooBandit

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Datadrainer wrote on 2021-09-14, 14:02:

For me, a useful ODE would be very similar to what is possible to do with a Gotek/HxC FD with FlashFloppy.

Hey there,

I have the Tattiebogle ODE, and am happy to report on my experience with it so far. I also run a FlashFloppy Gotek. Let's take a look at your list.

* A 3.5" floppy drive form factor (adaptable to 5.25"bay with a mounting base)

Not at the moment, 5.25" is a possibility, but would need some 3d printing. Mine is split into two parts. First the ODE supports a Crystalfontz display, and that comes in 5.25" format, so it sits in the drivebay. The ODE has some screw mounting holes, but they do not seem to match up with any standard drive that I can see, not 3.5" or 2.5". What I did was grabbed a metal PCI-E expansion card designed to mount 2 x 2.5" SSDs. I drilled screw holes and inserted stand offs to mount the ODE. It sits in an expansion slot in the rear of the case and is linked to the Crystalfontz display by USB cable. Now, it SHOULD be possible for someone skilled in 3d printing to design a 5.25" bay solution that accepts both the display and the ODE, but I am not that person.

* An USB or SD card interface accessible from the front with exFAT support

Hmm. You'd have to cut a hole in the Crystalfontz display, or mount the USB interface in another drive bay. I just cut a hole in the back plate of my expansion card, mounted a USB port on that, and plugged it into the ODE. Have to (un)plug the USB key in the rear of the case, but it has not been too much of a hassle so far.

* CD+DVD ROM support

Have not tried DVD ROM images.

* Firmware update from the media

Yep. But you have to SSH into the ODE from another PC to run the commands. It would be better if the Crystalfontz interface supported firmware upgrading.

* An IDE interface [and SCSI2 interface] version

Yep [nope]. The IDE interface works fine. It is powered from MOLEX, and communicates over IDE. I am running it from the IDE port on a Soundblaster CT2290 at present.

* Analog [and S/PDIF] audio output for link to sound card

Yep [nope]. It has an analog 4 pin output. I just have a normal CDROM to Soundcard cable connecting it to the CT2290. Works fine. In testing I have made my own images of my audio CDs, which I throw on the USB stick, and can then play back in DOS.

* A screen and buttons+rotary encoder for easy navigation

The Crystalfontz display does this bit. It does not have a rotary encoder, so scrolling through a large batch of files is painful. I have to work on an efficient directory structure to cut that down. The display is fine as it stands, you get the playback time if using an audio CD image, for example.

* A firmware support of common image files (iso and cue+bin of course but also CloneCD (ccd+img+sub) and DT (mds+mdf))

ISO and CUE+BIN work fine. I think ccd/img/sub also work. Have not tried mds/mdf.

* A 100% compatibility with common DOS IDE driver (OAKCDROM.SYS, UDVD2.SYS, etc)

Oh boy. Getting this to work in DOS with a 486 was the work of 4-5 months. The developer is active debugging and very helpful. Some drivers work, some do not. I am using SBIDE, which is based on OAK IIRC. It works flawlessly for me now. Not tried UDVD2.SYS. I cannot get VIDE-CDD.SYS to work at all. Non-starter.

* A choice of bezel of different colors to match most machines

Crystalfontz has a number of options. Beige does not seem to be among them. I have a black one, which matches my black Gotek, but looks out of place in the otherwise beige 486 case.

All in all, I am quite happy with it now. My PII and Athlon machines had no trouble picking up the ODE in Win98 or XP. In fact I used it to install WIn98SE from a CD image. DOS and the 486 was a serious challenge, but it is now working. The main goal for me was being able to play multi-CD DOS games like 7th Guest which require CDROM changes mid game. It work fine for those.

The total cost is ... not wonderful news. I am in the UK, so had to get the Crystalfontz display shipped from the US, as well as the ODE. Add in the various cables, and the SDD expansion tray that I hacked into working, and you are looking at £250/$350 - something like that.

For me it truly now works like a Gotek but for CDROM images in DOS6.22, which is what I wanted. It is, however, far from a one drivebay form factor solution like the Gotek. Some clever engineering and 3d printing COULD resolve that though.

Reply 151 of 269, by The Serpent Rider

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

This topic comes up quite often. Here is an IDE emulator with audio support:

"Unit price $200.00"

Big NOPE.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 152 of 269, by Boohyaka

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Yep, must agree there. I'm really glad it exists and hopefully more devices are to come with a more affordable base price. I absolutely do not want to imply that it is not worth $200 and I do put value in people's time and efforts to create new niche devices, just that $200 is too steep when I have many functioning CD drives around and plenty of CD-R to make backups for many years, particularly as the device is lacking many usability and QoL features to make it a proper drive replacement in a real retro computer to me.

Reply 153 of 269, by red_avatar

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-09-14, 13:18:

This topic comes up quite often. Here is an IDE emulator with audio support:
https://shop.tattiebogle.net/product/prod_EkTnv3Tk2Trxhf

Oh right, I did find this device when I last tried to find a solution but there's just so many things that I don't like about it:
a) the cost is immense - with all import fees I'd be paying close to €300. I might have accepted that IF it ticked all the boxes I wanted, but it barely ticks half
b) this is just a tiny board - there's no front panel, no LCD screen, no controls, no mounting solution - for a device at this price, that's ridiculous.
c) it doesn't properly emulate a CD drive if it only supports ISO and BIN-CUE - this MIGHT have been worth it for Win9X systems IF it supported MDF and other disc images that can contain copyprotection data. AFAIK, BIN-CUE doesn't work with any Windows CD based copy protection.
d) from what I read, there's quite a few bugs still - it doesn't quite work as smoothly as you'd wish or expect for a device of this price range

As was said above, what people want is a Gotek type device:
- a device that fits in the 5.25 drive bay with mounting holes that let you properly install it
- a clear menu driven display with buttons that let you easily navigate the disc images
- plug & play - no weird software needed, compatible with standard CD drivers - otherwise you're just going to run into issues on certain OS unless each OS has its own custom driver.
- a front shield that is available in beige so it blends with the rest - or a shield you can remove and paint any spraypaint the right colour if need be since that would be better than bright white or black
- (perhaps this one is mainly something I'd want:) compatibility with more disc images such as MDF & RNG which were mainly used to contain disc protection

We can but hope that someone will properly tackle this project. If it did all the above, a €200-300 price point MIGHT just be acceptable.

Retro game fanatic.
IBM PS1 386SX25 - 4MB
IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
IBM PC350 P233MMX - 64MB - 32GB SSD - AWE64 - Voodoo2
PIII600 - 320MB - 480GB SSD - SB Live! - GF4 Ti 4200
i5-2500k - 3GB - SB Audigy 2 - HD 4870

Reply 154 of 269, by Caluser2000

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Personally I don't see it as an issue.

It's like have old hdd start up sound in an emulator.

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 155 of 269, by cyclone3d

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-09-14, 20:45:

This topic comes up quite often. Here is an IDE emulator with audio support:

"Unit price $200.00"

Big NOPE.

What price do you expect to pay for something like that that has been developed by a single person and has taken up a huge amount of time to develop?

Not like it is mass produced like the Gotek floppy emulators.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 156 of 269, by The Serpent Rider

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

What price do you expect to pay for something like that that has been developed by a single person and has taken up a huge amount of time to develop?

As a potential customer, that's really not my concern. From my POV this emulator isn't that useful or special to justify such price.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 157 of 269, by dionb

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-09-14, 21:57:

[...]

What price do you expect to pay for something like that that has been developed by a single person and has taken up a huge amount of time to develop?

Not like it is mass produced like the Gotek floppy emulators.

"A product is worth only as much as customers are prepared to pay for it"

Goteks sell well in no small part because they are very affordable, not much more expensive than a working 3.5" drive and pile of floppies. At present, optical drives are still very plentiful and cheap, and media are easy to come by. Any alternative has to either offer significant extra value and/or be priced competitively. If you can buy a CD-RW drive for EUR 20 and a pack of discs for EUR 10 (and that's already more than I have paid for either this millennium), something that emulates some but not all functionality at ten times the price, in exchange for little more than a modicum of convenience, isn't going to sell like hotcakes, to put it mildly. How much time he put in isn't really a relevant bit of this calculation.

If the creator is in it for profit, he'd do well to cut the price to the point it does actually start to sell (or boost functionality to the point it actually makes sense to spend that much), as you're better off with high turnover and moderate profit margin than great profit margin but no turnover. If not he might as well share the designs and let people build it themselves - as is pretty common in this scene, as evidenced by a lot of sound card replicas.

Reply 158 of 269, by cyclone3d

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

What about a dual sound card setup and a DOS based emulator like I propose in this thread... though people seemed to poo-poo the idea.
Mount ISO files in a real DOS machine?

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 159 of 269, by BloodyCactus

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

oh yeah there is also RaSCSI which can do ISO emus and its a PI so you remote in and tell it which iso in the config, or it usees a browser for config so its easier.

--/\-[ Stu : Bloody Cactus :: http://kråketær.com :: http://mega-tokyo.com ]-/\--