hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:42:

First, they are corrupting the ecosystem with their insane practices, which other manufacturers are starting to copy on, and they are destroying capitalism, sane competition and the free market with it, using their power and unloyal twist in the law to do it. And that's why we have to intervene directly with them and force them to stop. Simple as that.

Also no one is forcing them to build the products in a way they don't like. Only availability on documentation, and stop themselves on hijacking parts availability.

I don't think it's "insane" to solder parts to make computers thinner and smaller. I actuallly LIKE it. I don't want to carry a 2kg notebook with me everywhere. I threw through the window a Dell laptop for that reason, just with three months of usage. And please don't try to push your useless left wing/comunist politics to me. They have the right to build the product with whatever they want, and how they want. There are many other brands from whom you can buy. There are options to build your own. Accept that or go home.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:42:

If you still want them to repair your device, then why worry about RtoR in the first place? This will not stop them to give you Applecare or their "certified" trash services. And if they do, then you are in your right to demand them.

My problem with RtoR is with people trying to change how they build their computers to make them "more serviceable". This will lower the quality of these computers for me. And I do not want that. I do not want to return to 2kg laptops to carry with me.

My problem with RtoR is with 3rd party repair shops providing a sh*t, poor service without being certified/trained for that, and damaging even more something that should be fixed. Or stealing parts to sell. 3rd party shops aren't trustworthy.

Also, when a guy attemps to repair it by himself, and fails, who takes the blame or pay for it? Not the manufacturer, nope. What if the battery explodes when he attempts to do so, and he dies? Who takes the blame for it? Certainly his family will try to sue the manufacturer for that. And they will lose because it was fully the responsibility of the guy when he attempted to fix it, not the manufacturer. Doesn't matter if he was doing it by himself or if he was working as a 3rd party technician, without being certified/trained for that.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:52:

I don't think it's "insane" to solder parts to make computers thinner and smaller. I actuallly LIKE it. I don't want to carry a 2kg notebook with me everywhere. I threw through the window a Dell laptop for that reason, just with three months of usage. And please don't try to push your useless left wing/comunist politics to me. They have the right to build the product with whatever they want, and how they want. There are many other brands from whom you can buy. There are options to build your own. Accept that or go home.

And now you are talking about soldering from nowhere... In a forum dedicated to bring new life to vintage equipment...
Buddy, that will not fly here. Do you think we only would be able to do just THT and nothing else? Here are people who does their own SMD boards for a living, with very small components and all the sh*t.

And yeah, they have the right to shill and do their nasty tactics as they want, do unrepairable devices etc... And we have the same power and right to stop them doing that through law. I don't know from where you are, but here that's the American Way.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:42:

My problem with RtoR is with people trying to change how they build their computers to make them "more serviceable". This will lower the quality of these computers for me. And I do not want that. I do not want to return to 2kg laptops to carry with me.

Also, when a guy attemps to repair it by himself, and fails, who takes the blame or pay for it? Not the manufacturer, nope. What if the battery explodes when he attempts to do so, and he dies? Who takes the blame for it? Certainly his family will try to sue the manufacturer for that. And they will lose because it was fully the responsibility of the guy when he attempted to fix it, not the manufacturer.

See before. More serviceable =! more weighed. LR and his friends, even with all the Apple locks and trash, repairs happily Apple phones, tablets and laptops up to today. The only limit is when parts aren't available, because manufacturer hijacked them from market.

As for the rest... Stop being dramatic. That will not fly here buddy.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:10:

And now you are talking about soldering from nowhere... In a forum dedicated to bring new life to vintage equipment...
Buddy, that will not fly here. Do you think we only would be able to do just THT and nothing else? Here are people who does their own SMD boards for a living, with very small components and all the sh*t.

And yeah, they have the right to shill and do their nasty tactics as they want, do unrepairable devices etc... And we have the same power and right to stop them doing that through law. I don't know from where you are, but here that's the American Way.

RtoR is attacking the newer, modern computers, not vintage ones. I still mantain: If you are not certified or authorized, you should NOT attempt to repair it yourself, and if the 3rd party shop is not certified or authorized, shouldn't as well! This is the RIGHT thing to do!

"And we have the same power..." ROTFLMAO. You're a comedian, that's for sure. RtoR will NOT change it. These guys have zero power to change that. Any law forcing the manufacturers to change how they build it is illegal.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:42:

See before. More serviceable =! more weighed. LR and his friends, even with all the Apple locks and trash, repairs happily Apple phones, tablets and laptops up to today. The only limit is when parts aren't available, because manufacturer hijacked them from market.

As for the rest... Stop being dramatic. That will not fly here buddy.

Louis Rossmann is an idi*t, I already said before, what he thinks means nothing to me because he is not an Apple certified technician/professional to repair Macs, Phones, Tablets. 3rd party shops should never do that without being an authorized repair shop, without technicians certified by the manufacturer. These shops in particular should never have access to the manufacturer parts unless they have the certificate and technicians trained and certified by the manufacturer.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:30:

In other words, you want the documentation to try and fix it yourself, without being certified and/or trained to do that. Still is a very wrong thing.

In my opinion, this right to repair fight is more about getting manufacturers to actually distribute parts/documentation so even third party professionals are able to repair electronics.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:30:

3rd party services should never be authorized to do that without being an authorized repair shop, or a certificate from the manufacturer. The service they offer is never the same quality as the manufacturers do for you. My experience with them is that they never fix it well, they steal parts from you, they do a poor job and the product is returned with more problems than when it came in. An authorized repair shop with a certificate is the only solution to that, then if something goes wrong I can point the finger to them or the manufacturer!

In the case of Apple, their "independent repair shop" program charges more for parts that would never make repairs profitable and provides subpar repair documentation.

Now yes, some places do break more than they fix, but you have to consider the fact that they have zero access to any documentation/repair procedures so it's not surprising.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:30:

It's about the right (and safest) thing to do.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this statement could be true for anything other than repairs involving internal PSU / Lithium Ion battery repairs, and even then most people would just replace the power supply and in the case of the battery, they would have to puncture the battery for anything bad to happen.

ST251 wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:37:

In the case of Apple, their "independent repair shop" program charges more for parts that would never make repairs profitable and provides subpar repair documentation.

Heh, I bet that for cases where you can easily solve the problem by replacing a cheap component the official "Apple Certified Technician" manual just instructs the "certified technicians" to replace the whole motherboard (and charge accordingly) instead of replacing a $0.01 resistor.

ST251 wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:37:

In my opinion, this right to repair fight is more about getting manufacturers to actually distribute parts/documentation so even third party professionals are able to repair electronics.

RtoR wants them to be available to the people in general, which is the main point I strongly disagree, only professionals trained and certified by the manufacturer in question should get access to them. This is my position and will not change. The quality of their services will only be good when they are trained and certified. Otherwise, this is just ridiculous.

ST251 wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:37:

In the case of Apple, their "independent repair shop" program charges more for parts that would never make repairs profitable and provides subpar repair documentation.

Now yes, some places do break more than they fix, but you have to consider the fact that they have zero access to any documentation/repair procedures so it's not surprising.

Again, same point I stated as above. The quality of these 3rd party repair shops will only be good if they are certified and trained by the manufacturer in question. The other dude here claims that 3rd party repair shops can provide cheaper and equally qualified repairs as the manufacturers ones, which is a completely false claim, fake news, a complete lie. The only truth here is the price. The service is completely subpar and a poor job. They simply break it, and that's my experience with them, and I promised myself I would never let any 3rd party shop fix my things, only authorized ones. The money I lose when 3rd party ones break them is much more than the price I pay for them to be fixed by authorized ones.

So, I repeat, only shops with technicians certified and trained by the manufacturer should have access to the parts and documentation. This way the customer is LEGALLY protected when something goes wrong or breaks. And this is the thing that RtoR fails to address.

ST251 wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:37:

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this statement could be true for anything other than repairs involving internal PSU / Lithium Ion battery repairs, and even then most people would just replace the power supply and in the case of the battery, they would have to puncture the battery for anything bad to happen.

Most people are too ignorant/st*pid to make it by themselves; they don't have the training, nor the knowledge to do that correctly and with precision. They can and are prone to run into risks like puncturing the battery, but the risks may and should be lower when they are trained and certified for that job. There are two risks; damaging even more your product to a point where the manufacturer will refuse to fix it under the warranty period, and risking your life messing with things that are near the battery or the battery itself. It's dangerous. That's why most guides like the idi*ts of iFixit.com instructs you to disconnect the battery and warns you of the risks. You can't assume that everyone is skilled enough to build a computer, or to fix them.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:18:

RtoR is attacking the newer, modern computers, not vintage ones. I still mantain: If you are not certified or authorized, you should NOT attempt to repair it yourself, and if the 3rd party shop is not certified or authorized, shouldn't as well! This is the RIGHT thing to do!

You keep maintaining, but you don't offer more arguments than "but... but is MANUFACTURER RIGHT to corrupt the ecosystem and screw their customers and people in general due corruption and interest colliding on the ecosystem". And as the cherry on the pay, you sign with "This is the RIGHT thing to do!". Seriously, I hope you are joking on your own good. Or at least tell us from were you are, for you to have such ideas.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:18:

Any law forcing the manufacturers to change how they build it is illegal.

Now it feels like you are a "Certified Apple Shill"
If is in the law, is legal, whatever do you like or not. Is in people's right to ask their elected to change the law to fit the needs of the citizens. Or at least that's how it works in a democratic country. If you are from a place like Brazil, then isn't our problem your place is as twisted to make you think you are better being ruled by corporations.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:18:

Louis Rossmann is an idi*t, I already said before, what he thinks means nothing to me because he is not an Apple certified technician/professional to repair Macs, Phones, Tablets. 3rd party shops should never do that without being an authorized repair shop, without technicians certified by the manufacturer. These shops in particular should never have access to the manufacturer parts unless they have the certificate and technicians trained and certified by the manufacturer.

I was no talking about if LR is an idiot, or your rhetoric about "if he should or shouldn't be authorized to do repairs". I was talking about REPAIR VIABILITY, which not only him, but also his friend as Paul Daniels, Jessa Jones, Dave Jones, Curious Marc and many many other have proved as POSSIBLE, even with all the locks, part hijacking and twisted tricks left by the manufacturers... ALL DONE IN MODERN EQUIPMENT.

And again, you don't offer more than the same script over.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:55:

So, I repeat, only shops with technicians certified and trained by the manufacturer should have access to the parts and documentation. This way the customer is protected when something goes wrong or breaks. And this is the thing that RtoR fails to address.

I partially agree with this. Yes, the right to repair program should also focus on having manufacturer-provided training programs, and I mean training programs that don't have flowcharts that read diagnose problem > replace entire part. That doesn't help the e-waste problem. But then when a product reaches end of life, the schematics/other documentation should be available upon request.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:55:

There are two risks; damaging even more your product to a point where the manufacturer will refuse to fix it under the warranty period, and risking your life messing with things that are near the battery or the battery itself. It's dangerous. You can't assume that everyone is skilled enough to build a computer, or to fix them.

I'm sorry, but I still don't agree that batteries are as dangerous as you're making it seem. If that was the case, there would be many many more battery fires than there are currently. Remember, for the longest time lithium ion batteries were removable.

Now if you're referring to having to spudger cases open, yes, there's an increased risk of battery puncture BUT that could be solved by them not relying so heavily on glue and finally using small screws :p

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:10:

You keep maintaining, but you don't offer more arguments than "but... but is MANUFACTURER RIGHT to corrupt the ecosystem and screw their customers and people in general due corruption and interest colliding on the ecosystem". And as the cherry on the pay, you sign with "This is the RIGHT thing to do!". Seriously, I hope you are joking on your own good. Or at least tell us from were you are, for you to have such ideas.

Again with the comunist/left sh*t here? You keep ignoring the fact that nobody is entitled to force a manufacturer to build a product with specifications other than the own specs of the manufacturer. Accept that or go home, again. You fail to provide arguments to legally enforce manufacturers to do that how you want not how they want. In the end, they own the product that they are selling, they are the ones entitled to build how they want to.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:10:

Now it feels like you are a "Certified Apple Shill"
If is in the law, is legal, whatever do you like or not. Is in people's right to ask their elected to change the law to fit the needs of the citizens. Or at least that's how it works in a democratic country. If you are from a place like Brazil, then isn't our problem your place is as twisted to make you think you are better being ruled by corporations.

I don't care about Brazil, really. Brazilians can go to hell, I don't give a damn. I'm not even brazilian, I'm spanish. I just happen to be in this sh*tty country, unfortunately.

You are the ridiculous one here with left/comunist ideas.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:10:

I was no talking about if LR is an idiot, or your rhetoric about "if he should or shouldn't be authorized to do repairs". I was talking about REPAIR VIABILITY, which not only him, but also his friend as Paul Daniels, Jessa Jones, Dave Jones, Curious Marc and many many other have proved as POSSIBLE, even with all the locks, part hijacking and twisted tricks left by the manufacturers... ALL DONE IN MODERN EQUIPMENT.

And again, you don't offer more than the same script over.

I'm sure these repairs you mentioned were not made in a correct manner, not even in a high quality standard. Because these people are not certified/trained by the manufacturers in question. They should be trained/certified to be legally qualified and entitled to do these repairs and have access to the documentation to do them correctly and with the quality it deserves. You're ignoring that and willing to lower the quality of these repairs even more. *cough* ST*PID *cough*. These repairs are illegal and they should be prosecuted by the law for doing that ilegally and charging money for that. Their customers must be refunded because they certainly damaged their computers/devices in doing so.

I am not defending Apple, nor the manufacturers, I am defending the correct way to ask for a better, cheaper repair. I despise repair shops who are not entitled/authorized to do them. They should be closed and prosecuted by the law for doing unauthorized repairs. Unfortunately, I am not the law, and neither are you.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:55:

The other dude here claims that 3rd party repair shops can provide cheaper and equally qualified repairs as the manufacturers ones, which is a completely false claim, fake news, a complete lie. The only truth here is the price. The service is completely subpar and a poor job. They simply break it, and that's my experience with them, and I promised myself I would never let any 3rd party shop fix my things, only authorized ones. The money I lose when 3rd party ones break them is much more than the price I pay for them to be fixed by authorized ones.

Your sources on the first? Where is your source what i'm saying is a false claim?
And talking again your experiences... THAT'S YOUR EXPERIENCE. I also have shared mine with you. Why you can't accept mine is as real as yours?
Apple has told you to be friendly with diverse opinions, which you aren't doing here 😀.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:55:

So, I repeat, only shops with technicians certified and trained by the manufacturer should have access to the parts and documentation. This way the customer is LEGALLY protected when something goes wrong or breaks. And this is the thing that RtoR fails to address.

Again, from where you are? Because, and still talking about Apple solely... HERE THEY DON'T TRAIN ANYONE AT ALL. They don't give more parts than screens. And that's all. Your phone needs a logic board repair to recover any valuable data on it? Good luck. "Certified" and "trained" by them, you can't get logic boards. If you are lucky, the "certified" repair shop sends the device to Apple, they erase your data, and send your device marked as "unrepairable", with no data recovered, to you. In the worst case, "certified" service will show you a catalog of new products so you buy a new one in the place, without touching your phone at all.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 23:55:

Most people are too ignorant/st*pid to make it by themselves; they don't have the training, nor the knowledge to do that correctly and with precision. They can and are prone to run into risks like puncturing the battery, but the risks may and should be lower when they are trained and certified for that job. There are two risks; damaging even more your product to a point where the manufacturer will refuse to fix it under the warranty period, and risking your life messing with things that are near the battery or the battery itself. It's dangerous. That's why most guides like the idi*ts of iFixit.com instructs you to disconnect the battery and warns you of the risks. You can't assume that everyone is skilled enough to build a computer, or to fix them.

Now this is genuine fake news, and scarecrow FUD. If you are doing shilling for Apple, you are doing it wrong buddy.

Mods please don't lock the thread. Post delete please.

Bruninho, haven't you got some story boarding to go and do?

ST251 wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:16:

I partially agree with this. Yes, the right to repair program should also focus on having manufacturer-provided training programs, and I mean training programs that don't have flowcharts that read diagnose problem > replace entire part. That doesn't help the e-waste problem. But then when a product reaches end of life, the schematics/other documentation should be available upon request.

Even with EOL products, they should not be available, or else common people will attempt to do the repairs without skills/training to do them. I mantain that only certified/trained professionals should have access to them.

If the parts are soldered, what's the problem with replacing the entire part? You really prefer to have a damaged part with a poor (re)soldering job on it, thus reducing the lifetime of your product? I'd rather replace it if I can have it.

ST251 wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:16:

I'm sorry, but I still don't agree that batteries are as dangerous as you're making it seem. If that was the case, there would be many many more battery fires than there are currently. Remember, for the longest time lithium ion batteries were removable.

Now if you're referring to having to spudger cases open, yes, there's an increased risk of battery puncture BUT that could be solved by them not relying so heavily on glue and finally using small screws :p

The "removable" batteries you are referring to, are bigger and heavier, still dangerous to deal with, and I do not want these versions. Just because you don't read the news doesn't mean there are not cases of battery fires around the world. OFC, there is. Even the removable batteries came with stickers warning about its dangers.

Small screws still increase the device thickness. I prefer to glue them, I don't like screws. I am all for whatever reduces the device size and thickness, so if they have to solder the ram, the disk, glue the battery and more, I'm all for it if it means a lighter, smaller device. Portability > Repairability for me.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:27:

Again with the comunist/left sh*t here? ... So stop pushing your comunist bullsh*t here.

Seriously, where is the communism in my comment? What have made you to think any on it is "communist"?

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:27:

I'm sure these repairs you mentioned were not made in a correct manner, not even in a high quality standard. Because these people are not certified/trained by the manufacturers in question. They should be trained/certified to be legally qualified and entitled to do these repairs and have access to the documentation to do them correctly and with the quality it deserves. You're ignoring that and willing to lower the quality of these repairs even more. *cough* ST*PID *cough*. These repairs are illegal and they should be prosecuted by the law for doing that ilegally and charging money for that. Their customers must be refunded because they certainly damaged their computers/devices in doing so.

Your proofs in your claims?

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:29:

Your sources on the first? Where is your source what i'm saying is a false claim?
And talking again your experiences... THAT'S YOUR EXPERIENCE. I also have shared mine with you. Why you can't accept mine is as real as yours?
Apple has told you to be friendly with diverse opinions, which you aren't doing here 😀.

The sources? That's mine, my parents, my friends, everyone else I know had the same experiences. 3rd party unauthorized repair shops are sh*t. Saying that they offer a service as good as the official authorized ones is a lie.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:29:

Again, from where you are? Because, and still talking about Apple solely... HERE THEY DON'T TRAIN ANYONE AT ALL. They don't give more parts than screens. And that's all. Your phone needs a logic board repair to recover any valuable data on it? Good luck. "Certified" and "trained" by them, you can't get logic boards. If you are lucky, the "certified" repair shop sends the device to Apple, they erase your data, and send your device marked as "unrepairable", with no data recovered, to you. In the worst case, "certified" service will show you a catalog of new products so you buy a new one in the place, without touching your phone at all.

Again, I only allow the manufacturer to repair/replace them for me. I pay whatever price they charge for servicing or replacing the whole device, because letting 3rd party unauthorized shops do it for me is even more expensive and breaks them. I already stated that I don't care about what is inside and I just want to keep doing what the f*** I was doing when it broke. I'm not sorry if you are too poor to pay for that.

https://training.apple.com/us/en/recognition here, go ahead, take it. Accept the rules of the game, choose another brand, or go home.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:29:

Now this is genuine fake news, and scarecrow FUD. If you are doing shilling for Apple, you are doing it wrong buddy.

The fake news here is you telling people that 3rd party repair shops can do the job equally as good as the authorized ones.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:45:

And defending "he correct way to ask for a better, cheaper repair" is supporting RtoR. There is no other way, and that has been discussed many times over internet already...

Nope. Supporting RtoR is not the right way. The right way is fighting for a law to make manufacturers pursue cheaper repair services, and allow third party shops to have access to the parts and docs only after being trained and authorized by them, because this way the customer is legally protected by the law in case the damage is unrepairable or in case they break them. Fighting for your right to repair it yourself is not the right way, because you already have that right, you just don't want to be fully responsible for the risks in doing so.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:39:

Even with EOL products, they should not be available, or else common people will attempt to do the repairs without skills/training to do them. I mantain that only certified/trained professionals should have access to them.

We'll just have to agree to disagree there

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:39:

If the parts are soldered, what's the problem with replacing the entire part? You really prefer to have a damaged part with a poor (re)soldering job on it, thus reducing the lifetime of your product? I'd rather replace it if I can have it.

Well, for one, a replacement isn't guaranteed to be perfect. For example, you could have a logic board that had one bad capacitor replaced with one that has a defective GPU that hasn't shown any symptoms yet. Parts usually are replaced with refurbished parts instead of brand new.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 00:39:

The "removable" batteries you are referring to, are bigger and heavier, still dangerous to deal with, and I do not want these versions. Just because you don't read the news doesn't mean there are not cases of battery fires around the world. OFC, there is. Even the removable batteries came with stickers warning about its dangers.

I don't appreciate that assumption you made. I actually do pay attention to news like that, and I never said the number of fires was zero. They're just not as common as you're apparently making them out to be.

Hi all,

Several posts in this thread have been deleted because they violated the VOGONS community standards. These rules exist to prevent flamewars that destroy the ability of the entire community to have good discussions about contentious topics. It is possible to disagree completely with someone else and not resort to personal attacks or assume they are acting in bad faith. If you feel another member is violating the community standards, please flag those posts and keep the conversation on topic. If you feel like you aren’t able to engage constructively, please ignore those posts instead of taking the thread further into flamewar territory.

Thank you,

appiah4 wrote on 2021-10-15, 05:58:

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 21:16:

I'm also against Right To Repair.

Well, this kind of idiocy deserves a thread of its own.

there is an argument that states "companies can make things how they like and the consumer can choose not to buy it"

except that clearly isn't the case, and hasn't been for a long time

there are various regulations about almost any product prescribing how things should be designed and made

Why would that be necessary? perhaps because there is an acceptance that 'the consumer' cannot have perfect knowledge, they are simply not capable of discerning safe from unsafe etc and it would not be reasonable to expect them to obtain all the necessary information on, for instance, electrical safety and study the products in depth before buying a radio for example.

So the government does that, and does it in concert with industry who *want* there to be regulations to create a set of rules to play by and make it easier for their products to be bought

right to repair is somewhat different, but is along similar lines. the argument is that a consumer cannot be expected to ascertain whether or not the thing they are buying is repairable by either the manufacturer, a third party or the buyer in a way that is considered 'reasonable' in by a regulator (just like a regulator stipulates electrical safety for instance)

It recognises that manufacturers chose, not by accident, to design things to be unrepairable so as to a) make production as cheap as possible and b) 'encourage' the buyer to give up and buy another rather than trying to repair a product

in some ways, especially with fast developing technical product, repairing an old model doesn't give you the same, or anywhere near the same, capabilities as buying a new one so whether people actually want to repair these products is uncertain (but then look at us lot on vogons!)

it's also a reasonable criticism that people will 'repair', ie damage and make unsafe, the product and then potentially blame the manufacturer -or at least set up a storm of legal drama trying to pin it on them

In other news, I'd like to apologize to the rest of you for my profane outburst.

I'd like everyone to know, my blood sugar was low when I wrote that. My sisters kiD were screaming, I previously stepped on a LEGO(tm), there was a giant flood. An EARTHQUAKE! IT WASN'T MY FAULT!!!
reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U9Yl5CXvcQ BTW one of Carrie Fishers best roles, imho.

(I hope its obvious only the last bit was me being funny)

Debate should end when someone says "I'm also against Right To Repair.". This is beyond stupid and should just be ignored.