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Reply 60 of 218, by TrashPanda

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wiretap wrote on 2021-12-30, 11:50:
SpectriaForce wrote on 2021-12-30, 00:29:
wiretap wrote on 2021-12-22, 01:58:

I was going though our Crit-A storage the other day at work and came across all sorts of computer gold. Evergreen CPU's, Alpha DS20 CPU's, IBM AT's and 5153 monitors still unopened, tons of ATI ISA video cards, etc. At some point I have to go through and scrap it, but I'll save what I can.

This sounds like a fairy tale and nightmare. I would love to buy a NOS IBM AT if it's affordable. I bet that you could sell them all if the price is right and you can ship them.

Can't sell them, against company policy.

Sounds like a shipment to the recyclers needs to go missing, fuck policies that create yet more e-waste especially for hardware that has never been used and could be simply given away to employees as a write off.

Im crazy not stupid, well not stupid enough to make claims that are total nonsense.

Reply 61 of 218, by Namrok

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I mean, if the policy is he can't sell them, he could maybe give it away to good homes?

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Reply 62 of 218, by BitWrangler

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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 12:06:
wiretap wrote on 2021-12-30, 11:50:
SpectriaForce wrote on 2021-12-30, 00:29:

This sounds like a fairy tale and nightmare. I would love to buy a NOS IBM AT if it's affordable. I bet that you could sell them all if the price is right and you can ship them.

Can't sell them, against company policy.

Sounds like a shipment to the recyclers needs to go missing, fuck policies that create yet more e-waste especially for hardware that has never been used and could be simply given away to employees as a write off.

And thus came into being the establishment of RetroSave Inc, with total corporate assets of a 1 day Penske truck rental and 50 free sample business cards.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 63 of 218, by vetz

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wiretap wrote on 2021-12-30, 11:50:
SpectriaForce wrote on 2021-12-30, 00:29:
wiretap wrote on 2021-12-22, 01:58:

I was going though our Crit-A storage the other day at work and came across all sorts of computer gold. Evergreen CPU's, Alpha DS20 CPU's, IBM AT's and 5153 monitors still unopened, tons of ATI ISA video cards, etc. At some point I have to go through and scrap it, but I'll save what I can.

This sounds like a fairy tale and nightmare. I would love to buy a NOS IBM AT if it's affordable. I bet that you could sell them all if the price is right and you can ship them.

Can't sell them, against company policy.

Had a similar argument with one of the IT guys at my work. They junk everything, they do not even donate to schools or organisations. He just said "company policy". Well, the arguments for changing that are quite easy, especially if you're working at a company which publically says they care about being "green" and "sustainable". Junking perfectly fine hardware (we're talking 5-6 year old laptops) and refusing to even donate it is not being sustainable. Management loves ANY suggestion/initiative to reach that goal, so it's an easy sell and that would force the IT department to change their ways.

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Reply 64 of 218, by jasa1063

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It is truly a sad situation when a company has a policy to only junk old IT equipment and not even consider there is a better use for it. I am glad to say that company I work for is willing to let me take old equipment as long as the hard drive or SSD is removed.

Reply 65 of 218, by TrashPanda

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jasa1063 wrote on 2021-12-30, 17:02:

It is truly a sad situation when a company has a policy to only junk old IT equipment and not even consider there is a better use for it. I am glad to say that company I work for is willing to let me take old equipment as long as the hard drive or SSD is removed.

I actually agree with junking Hdds and other sensitive data storage medium, even a military wipe doesn’t guarantee 100% protection from recovery.

SSDs are an odd problem since wiping them 100% due to how they work is both difficult and damaging to the drive.

Im crazy not stupid, well not stupid enough to make claims that are total nonsense.

Reply 66 of 218, by cyclone3d

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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 20:19:
jasa1063 wrote on 2021-12-30, 17:02:

It is truly a sad situation when a company has a policy to only junk old IT equipment and not even consider there is a better use for it. I am glad to say that company I work for is willing to let me take old equipment as long as the hard drive or SSD is removed.

I actually agree with junking Hdds and other sensitive data storage medium, even a military wipe doesn’t guarantee 100% protection from recovery.

SSDs are an odd problem since wiping them 100% due to how they work is both difficult and damaging to the drive.

For SSDs a secure erase (which is supposed to reset the NAND) is fine for pretty much anything. If you have somebody using an electron microscope to try to recover data from a drive, then you have bigger problems in general.

And if you have somebody removing the NAND chips to try to read them, unless you have an SSD with only one NAND chip, then the data will not be readable anyway as the NAND chips are basically in a RAID array.

Anything recent is going to do a pretty good job of wiping the old data with the built-in garbage collection.

With HDDs, using a full drive overwrite with random data is going to keep any recovery from happening unless somebody is removing the platters and using an electron microscope to attempt to recover old data. And again, if you have somebody doing that, then you are probably being targeted by a foreign country. If your data is that top secret, then sure, go ahead and destroy the drive. That is not going to apply to 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of companies and individuals.

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Reply 67 of 218, by MN_Moody

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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 20:19:
jasa1063 wrote on 2021-12-30, 17:02:

It is truly a sad situation when a company has a policy to only junk old IT equipment and not even consider there is a better use for it. I am glad to say that company I work for is willing to let me take old equipment as long as the hard drive or SSD is removed.

I actually agree with junking Hdds and other sensitive data storage medium, even a military wipe doesn’t guarantee 100% protection from recovery.

SSDs are an odd problem since wiping them 100% due to how they work is both difficult and damaging to the drive.

As someone who volunteers at Free Geek Twin Cities I get where you are coming from, but as someone who also worked in "big corporate IT" I can tell you that most companies are not "junking" computers - they are working with reputable e-waste recyclers who are certified by the EPA and have auditable data handling and destruction procedures that meet corporate insurance or risk management policies. You MIGHT find traction with a large company partnering with an established nonprofit to do a community outreach program, but the chance that some fly by night guy with business cards and a truck is getting anything from a company with any serious data protection program in place is slim-none. You are far better off engaging with smaller e-waste companies that haven't set up their own vintage hardware sorting and selling process and figuring out how to bring something they need at no risk/hassle to the table.

Reply 68 of 218, by TrashPanda

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-12-30, 21:28:
For SSDs a secure erase (which is supposed to reset the NAND) is fine for pretty much anything. If you have somebody using an el […]
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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 20:19:
jasa1063 wrote on 2021-12-30, 17:02:

It is truly a sad situation when a company has a policy to only junk old IT equipment and not even consider there is a better use for it. I am glad to say that company I work for is willing to let me take old equipment as long as the hard drive or SSD is removed.

I actually agree with junking Hdds and other sensitive data storage medium, even a military wipe doesn’t guarantee 100% protection from recovery.

SSDs are an odd problem since wiping them 100% due to how they work is both difficult and damaging to the drive.

For SSDs a secure erase (which is supposed to reset the NAND) is fine for pretty much anything. If you have somebody using an electron microscope to try to recover data from a drive, then you have bigger problems in general.

And if you have somebody removing the NAND chips to try to read them, unless you have an SSD with only one NAND chip, then the data will not be readable anyway as the NAND chips are basically in a RAID array.

Anything recent is going to do a pretty good job of wiping the old data with the built-in garbage collection.

With HDDs, using a full drive overwrite with random data is going to keep any recovery from happening unless somebody is removing the platters and using an electron microscope to attempt to recover old data. And again, if you have somebody doing that, then you are probably being targeted by a foreign country. If your data is that top secret, then sure, go ahead and destroy the drive. That is not going to apply to 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of companies and individuals.

Companies are not at all worried about any of this .. they only care that there might be a chance, any kind of chance no matter how small automatically means the drive gets junked, its just how the rules go, this aside companies simply dont want to spend the time/money required to do a full dod wipe on their drives when junking them is cheaper and removes all possible risk from data being recovered by anyone.

Im crazy not stupid, well not stupid enough to make claims that are total nonsense.

Reply 69 of 218, by BitWrangler

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The possibility of the CEOs secret swiss bank account number turning up in a hardware remapped bad sector is probably enough to give them the heebie geebies.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 70 of 218, by cyclone3d

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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 21:41:
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-12-30, 21:28:
For SSDs a secure erase (which is supposed to reset the NAND) is fine for pretty much anything. If you have somebody using an el […]
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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 20:19:

I actually agree with junking Hdds and other sensitive data storage medium, even a military wipe doesn’t guarantee 100% protection from recovery.

SSDs are an odd problem since wiping them 100% due to how they work is both difficult and damaging to the drive.

For SSDs a secure erase (which is supposed to reset the NAND) is fine for pretty much anything. If you have somebody using an electron microscope to try to recover data from a drive, then you have bigger problems in general.

And if you have somebody removing the NAND chips to try to read them, unless you have an SSD with only one NAND chip, then the data will not be readable anyway as the NAND chips are basically in a RAID array.

Anything recent is going to do a pretty good job of wiping the old data with the built-in garbage collection.

With HDDs, using a full drive overwrite with random data is going to keep any recovery from happening unless somebody is removing the platters and using an electron microscope to attempt to recover old data. And again, if you have somebody doing that, then you are probably being targeted by a foreign country. If your data is that top secret, then sure, go ahead and destroy the drive. That is not going to apply to 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of companies and individuals.

Companies are not at all worried about any of this .. they only care that there might be a chance, any kind of chance no matter how small automatically means the drive gets junked, its just how the rules go, this aside companies simply don't want to spend the time/money required to do a full dod wipe on their drives when junking them is cheaper and removes all possible risk from data being recovered by anyone.

Yep, they send them to "recycling" companies who then turn around and resell the stuff on eBay and other markets.
I've received industrial systems from recyclers and the drives were still in the computers as well as the data still being there.

Sooo.. about the whole "junking" thing. If they really want the drives to not have data recovered off of them ever, then they should probably be taking the drives out and destroying them themselves.
But they don't have time or money to do that of course.

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Reply 71 of 218, by maxtherabbit

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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 20:19:

even a military wipe doesn’t guarantee 100% protection from recovery.

yes it does, no one has EVER been able to demonstrate otherwise - and it has been tried

Reply 72 of 218, by Meatball

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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 21:41:
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-12-30, 21:28:
For SSDs a secure erase (which is supposed to reset the NAND) is fine for pretty much anything. If you have somebody using an el […]
Show full quote
TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 20:19:

I actually agree with junking Hdds and other sensitive data storage medium, even a military wipe doesn’t guarantee 100% protection from recovery.

SSDs are an odd problem since wiping them 100% due to how they work is both difficult and damaging to the drive.

For SSDs a secure erase (which is supposed to reset the NAND) is fine for pretty much anything. If you have somebody using an electron microscope to try to recover data from a drive, then you have bigger problems in general.

And if you have somebody removing the NAND chips to try to read them, unless you have an SSD with only one NAND chip, then the data will not be readable anyway as the NAND chips are basically in a RAID array.

Anything recent is going to do a pretty good job of wiping the old data with the built-in garbage collection.

With HDDs, using a full drive overwrite with random data is going to keep any recovery from happening unless somebody is removing the platters and using an electron microscope to attempt to recover old data. And again, if you have somebody doing that, then you are probably being targeted by a foreign country. If your data is that top secret, then sure, go ahead and destroy the drive. That is not going to apply to 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of companies and individuals.

Companies are not at all worried about any of this .. they only care that there might be a chance, any kind of chance no matter how small automatically means the drive gets junked, its just how the rules go, this aside companies simply dont want to spend the time/money required to do a full dod wipe on their drives when junking them is cheaper and removes all possible risk from data being recovered by anyone.

The chance can't be no matter how small or the companies would erase the drive themselves. Even with the most stringent "chain of custody" contract demands, once the drive/data leaves company hands, the risk of data compromise has grown exponentially. And I would wager good money most companies aren't regularly auditing their buyers. To cover this risk, they buy (or should be buying) insurance, which until the market punishes companies for data compromise, is still cheap relative to the still present risk.

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Reply 73 of 218, by TrashPanda

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2021-12-30, 21:49:
TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 20:19:

even a military wipe doesn’t guarantee 100% protection from recovery.

yes it does, no one has EVER been able to demonstrate otherwise - and it has been tried

Depends on the drive and how it records data to the platters, unless you are willing to do several passes then 100% protection simply doesnt exist.

Im crazy not stupid, well not stupid enough to make claims that are total nonsense.

Reply 74 of 218, by cyclone3d

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TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 22:06:
maxtherabbit wrote on 2021-12-30, 21:49:
TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 20:19:

even a military wipe doesn’t guarantee 100% protection from recovery.

yes it does, no one has EVER been able to demonstrate otherwise - and it has been tried

Depends on the drive and how it records data to the platters, unless you are willing to do several passes then 100% protection simply doesnt exist.

The "military" wipe is generally a 7-pass overwrite with random data.

The one I used to use was "only" 3-pass.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 75 of 218, by TrashPanda

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-12-31, 03:17:
TrashPanda wrote on 2021-12-30, 22:06:
maxtherabbit wrote on 2021-12-30, 21:49:

yes it does, no one has EVER been able to demonstrate otherwise - and it has been tried

Depends on the drive and how it records data to the platters, unless you are willing to do several passes then 100% protection simply doesnt exist.

The "military" wipe is generally a 7-pass overwrite with random data.

The one I used to use was "only" 3-pass.

Now factor in multi terabyte drives and perhaps people might understand why most companies simply wont bother with the expenditure of time and money and will just junk the drives. What happens to the drives once they are out of the companies hands is a different matter and I doubt very much that it would be legal for the recycler to sell the drives on if they have a contract to destroy them, I also figure the company would want evidence of destruction too.

I think this has gone a bit off topic here so ill leave it at this.

Im crazy not stupid, well not stupid enough to make claims that are total nonsense.

Reply 76 of 218, by Errius

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Who sits on tens of thousands of CPUs for 20 years? Some government stockpile?

I don't mind getting computers with missing drives. I do mind when they're also missing drive cages/trays. That's a huge annoyance.

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Reply 77 of 218, by weedeewee

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Anyone heard of the reason for junking electronics coming from accounting?
Saying it needs to be destroyed since it has been written off and thus should have no more value to be sold off.
Selling it could make them liable for fraud.

Past year we got a lot of those Dell SFF computers, they all looked ok on the outside, bit dusty.
Then we openened them up. Somebody had taken a drill to the harddrive, straight through the drive, the fan underneath, sometimes the dimms and the motherboards.
Needless to say those were only good for a few spare parts & magnets.

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Reply 78 of 218, by MN_Moody

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Errius wrote on 2021-12-31, 05:07:

Who sits on tens of thousands of CPUs for 20 years? Some government stockpile?

I don't mind getting computers with missing drives. I do mind when they're also missing drive cages/trays. That's a huge annoyance.

Guessing it was a manufacturer stock since they are all the same part, who knows if it ended up in a tech hoarder's estate or got stuck in the back of a dusty warehouse like the Ark of the Covenant only to be unearthed 20 years later when a tech scrapper finally got through the piles in front of that particular box.

Agreed on the annoyance of finding a nice machine that is missing cages/trays, though I understand it from a time economy standpoint upstream if the entity doing the removal is operating under the assumption that the machines are going to be scrapped vs resold why expend the extra effort?

Reply 79 of 218, by SpectriaForce

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weedeewee wrote on 2021-12-31, 10:22:

Anyone heard of the reason for junking electronics coming from accounting?
Saying it needs to be destroyed since it has been written off and thus should have no more value to be sold off.
Selling it could make them liable for fraud.

Organizations probably have to pay to get rid of their old hardware, unless it's not completely depreciated, in which case it probably has resale value. Many large organizations lease hardware, in case of financial lease that also means they depreciate the hardware and can own it. Selling something that's completely depreciated is not illegal, but can be seen as a source of income, which should be accounted for. Organizations really do not have a single reason to not donate or sell their old hardware, apart from liability concerns, data loss and lack of time for non profitable activities.

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