Meatball wrote on 2022-01-24, 17:37:

So far, I haven't done much. I originally tried to make "1 machine to rule them all" with my retro hardware and that went precisely nowhere. There is always a game which won't work no matter how much tweaking is done. It's as random as the system you put together. Whatever combination of other games and hardware installed impacts this "one" game. This game needs a different machine, and of course, caused you to rebuild the original machine you tried to make it run on.

So, at this point, I test the equipment I buy and salivate about the dream machines I will one day put together before I die. It's been 4 years...

I haven't had any components die on me other than a brand new CRT which stopped working between a move. I still have it though, because I bet someone can fix it easily.

People who can fix CRTs are far and few between nowadays, most electricians could take a stab at it if its not a tube issue but the last few sparkies I talked to would rather play with high voltage transformers than poke around in the back of a CRT, CRT tubes and Caps do not forgive and are far easier to contact with if you are not experienced with them.

CRT tubes honestly scare me with how much voltage they can retain even after being switched off for a while.

I take apart my stuff and replace the thermal paste regardless of how new it is or how carefully the previous owner cared for it. Heat is public enemy number one. The Vram chips are usually first to go. Idiots back then designed the heatsinks so that the VRAM shared the heat of the GPU. I have an old Gateway laptop with radeon 7500m graphics that succumbed to this. Its pretty much useless for any kind of 3d acceleration now as it artifacts or bluescreens as it warms up.

For CRT longevity it is best to plug in an LCD when restarting and bios setting and whatnot. The power cycles are likely not good for them. When everything has been set up then its fine. I myself do not follow my own advice on this however. I am too lazy and do not have much room.

I managed to get my Trinitron 1920x1440 capable monitor for free. I do not know if I will be as fortunate again.

AppleSauce wrote on 2022-01-24, 07:32:

...once its all up and running and you find a game you like and everything runs together like clockwork on the period correct hardware its a bit like magic , kinda feels like you've been transported back in a time a little.

Thats when I stop worrying and just enjoy the moment.

I enjoyed the way you describe this experience. I feel the same way too. Thanks for this!

I have so many builds I tend to rotate though them depending on what mood I am in.
This week I may be in the mood for Age of Empires, that's the P3, Next week Need for Speed 3, that'll be one of the Glide PC's
Sometimes I simply want to use a 486 or Slot 1 rig.
That said my XP LGA775 rig definitely gets most use as it can handle just about any Win9x/XP game comfortably at max everything.

But I also age, I have it to use it!

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-01-24, 05:24:

My vintage machines I treat like my fully restored 2 door fast back Torana, it gets driven twice a month on the weekends its all […]
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My vintage machines I treat like my fully restored 2 door fast back Torana, it gets driven twice a month on the weekends its allowed to be on the road, lets me find out if any parts need maintenance or servicing but it also means the car doesnt get extra stress put on it that would come with being used daily. The vintage PCs are the same I use them sparingly, especially the older ones I have, the older equipment might not like being used everyday but I make sure to fire them up at least once a month if only to see that they still boot.

I have a Core 2 Quad monster machine that I guess isn't totally "Retro" even tho some of the parts in it are close to 12-14 years old at this point that I do use a fair bit, its a Xp/Vista/Linux/Win10 machine with a 4xSSD bay device that lets me run 4 operating systems on that one machine by turning off SSD drives I dont want to use. It does the majority of my retro software tinkering unless I need pure DOS or 32bit Win9x and its perfect for that job as the parts in it can be replaced pretty cheaply compared to the older 1990 - 2002 era hardware.

I call it the Quadzilla
-ASUS Striker II Extreme
-Core 2 Extreme QX9770 @ 4.6ghz AIO cooled
-16gb 2000 DDR3 @ 1600 - not a chance it'll run at 2000 with the OC due to the Northbridge not liking 16gb at such high speeds, with 4gb it'll happily do 2000.
-Quad SLI GTX 295 (Only under Vista and Windows 10, Win XP doesnt have support for Quad SLI)
-4 way SSD 5.25" bay device, allows SSD drives to be turned off, each drive can be setup with a different OS.
-Creative Xi-Fi Elite Pro

I have a Adaptec ASR 71605 1GB 16Port HBA RAID PCIe Controller that I want to throw in there but haven't had the time to sit down and figure out how to get it all setup or if it'll allow all 16 ports under PCIe 2.0, got several raptor drives I wouldn't mind raiding together. One day I will get around to finding out if it'll work in the Zilla, if not I can always setup a NAS box with it and the Raptors.

Quad SLI is fun but I might eventually switch them for a GTX 970 I have and use modded drivers for it under XP.

Its honestly a fun machine to use and if I didn't need my modern machine I could see myself being happy with just the Zilla.

As to duplicate parts ..ummm yes all of them except for the QX9770 and Striker II board .. its actually quite hard to buy either of them at a reasonable prices but I do have equivalent replacements that are cheaper.

*points sheepishly to shelves of parts and half built PC's

I honestly love trawling eBay and other auction sites and snapping up the deals you can find, its enjoyable even just browsing and checking out interesting and odd hardware is fun.

Hello TrashPanda!

I’ve just found your recent post about retro-Quadzilla after several weeks trying to find the solution for my case. I have the same Asus Striker II Extreme and system doesn’t POST with RAM> 10GB, i believe some PCI OROM memory overlapping in BIOS..

Could please share precise version of your Award Bios (with 16GB of RAM working) and if you made any mods to original Asus image?

Thx in advance!

bZbZbZ wrote on 2022-01-24, 04:25:

• Most Windows 9x games either work in XP or have XP patches/workarounds (I know there are some exceptions)

I did not have this experience. Some games, even patched / hacked will not work reliably under XP (will either not launch or will crash to desktop randomly). And it's not a short list of games either. Compatibility comes down to hardware as well. For example, I've been able to run NFS V Porsche on XP on an Athlon XP 3200+ / FX 5950 Ultra and I've been playing it on and off for over a year. But a few months ago my work moved to another city so decided to install my most played retro games on a laptop. I started with an ASUS ROG from 2014 (i7, GTX 970) running windows XP and Windows 7. While NFS5 will run, it looks horrible (like there's no texture filtering) and will crash to desktop in the garage frequently. Dungeon Keeper 2 shows the cursor and a black screen. Homeworld sometimes locks up when loading campaign missions, and I noticed the behavior of projectiles is odd. And that's where I stopped bothering with it.

So I went out and looked for another, older laptop, something that can dual-boot 98 and XP. I got lucky and found an Acer Ferrari 3200 (athlon 64 3000+ / Radeon Mobility 9700, 5:4 display). Under win98 it will run the above mentioned games happily, but under XP it out-right refuses to run NFS Porsche correctly. This time it lock up in the garage screen or in the options screen. Music keeps playing in the background but no cursor. I tried all official and unofficial patches. I tried Omega drivers. No dice. Dungeon keeper 2 runs and displays correctly but will crash to desktop during gameplay. Sometimes it runs for 3 hours, other times it crashes in the first 20 minutes. Homeworld and Homeworld Cataclysm both work fine under XP and 98.

To confirm possible issues with NFS5, I installed it on one of my XP rigs (Core 2 Quad QX6800 + GTX 280) and guess what... it works fine.... I moved on to another PC that dual boots XP and 98 - an LGA775 pentium 4 630 / Geforce 6600GT. Again NFS5 is locking up under XP in menus and the garage, but much less often then on the Acer - and it works perfectly in windows 98 - despite not having any chipset drivers installed!

Flanker 2.0 will not even launch on XP. Uprising will only run on XP in software mode. Need for Speed 4 has some issues on XP, Mechwarrior 2 is a mess on XP, especially on newer hardware. Mechwarrior 3 has issues with keybindings under XP, and under certain hardware configurations will crash when attempting to play the birefings. It's playable if you like the default keybindings. Battlezone has problems on XP. There is a patch for it, but I found it doesn't make the game 100% stable and it can cause audio stuttering and frameskips. I've also had problems with Descent Freespace under XP. Mechcommander 2 has missing ground textures under XP. Interstate 76 wont run on XP (hell, sometimes it has stability issues in 98).

To fix all these issues without spending hours looking for patches and hacks I bought a Dell Inspiron 8200. 2GHz pentium 4m, Geforce 4 440GO with 64MB of vram (128bit) and 4:3 display. Installed windows 98, and all my games work.

Shcookius wrote on 2022-01-24, 21:59:

For CRT longevity it is best to plug in an LCD when restarting and bios setting and whatnot. The power cycles are likely not good for them. When everything has been set up then its fine. I myself do not follow my own advice on this however. I am too lazy and do not have much room.

I think the same.
A CRT is better left either on or off.
Using a screensaver vs energy savings might be good, too.
A stable room temperature, albeit not too high, is also good.

CRT's power supplies do age, too.
The "power on" phase is most stressful to them, I think.
Also can be seen on old TVs that need to warm up for a longer time
(though they have multiple tubes that need a warm up phase, too).

The PSU also was a weak point in soviet TVs. Like Junost etc.
Their power supplies were badly done also, perhaps due the lack of quality capacitors and other parts.
Anyway, back on topic - aged PSUs can fail quickly due to voltage fluctuations on the mains.

I once switched off a lamp that was plugged in the same AC outlet box as the TV:
The result was a white flash followed by black screen - I've immediately switched the TV off.
Gratefully, it still worked next day. However, the PSU needs a serious repair before I ever use that TV.

By the way, it's possible regenerate weak CRT tube.
That process is called "rejuvenation".
A rejuvenator device can help fixing weak CRTs.
https://blog.timowens.io/crt-rejuvination/

bZbZbZ wrote on 2022-01-24, 04:25:

So over the past year I had a few video cards die (all in separate machines... so it's not like a single bad power supply killed them). My childhood Radeon 9700 started artifacting (I understand this is common). The Radeon 9800 Pro I replaced it with then started crashing/artifacting a few months later. I also had a GeForce 8800 GTS start artifacting (not exactly a treasured item, but annoying nonetheless... and none of these cards were overclocked). I have to admit that this is has made me wary of spending a lot of time running a lot of hours on old hardware, and even had an impact on my enjoyment of the hobby in general. I haven't turned on my Pentium III / Voodoo3 machine in months (I wouldn't pay the current eBay price to buy another Voodoo3).

I think you are probably over-reacting a bit.

The video cards that died on you are notoriously unreliable in old age.

The Geforce 4 Ti is a somewhat more reliable alternative of the Radeon 9xxx series.
The Geforce GTX 260 is a more reliable way to get 8800 performance.

Things like the voodoo 3/Pentium 3 are relatively reliable, but you need to ensure you have a decent PSU, replace capacitors if they start to bloat up and ensure you have reasonable cooling.

Socket3 wrote on 2022-06-07, 19:53:

Some games, even patched / hacked will not work reliably under XP (will either not launch or will crash to desktop randomly). An […]
Show full quote

Some games, even patched / hacked will not work reliably under XP (will either not launch or will crash to desktop randomly). And it's not a short list of games either. Compatibility comes down to hardware as well. For example, I've been able to run NFS V Porsche on XP on an Athlon XP 3200+ / FX 5950 Ultra and I've been playing it on and off for over a year. But a few months ago my work moved to another city so decided to install my most played retro games on a laptop. I started with an ASUS ROG from 2014 (i7, GTX 970) running windows XP and Windows 7. While NFS5 will run, it looks horrible (like there's no texture filtering) and will crash to desktop in the garage frequently.
...
To confirm possible issues with NFS5, I installed it on one of my XP rigs (Core 2 Quad QX6800 + GTX 280) and guess what... it works fine.... I moved on to another PC that dual boots XP and 98 - an LGA775 pentium 4 630 / Geforce 6600GT. Again NFS5 is locking up under XP in menus and the garage, but much less often then on the Acer - and it works perfectly in windows 98 - despite not having any chipset drivers installed
...
To fix all these issues without spending hours looking for patches and hacks I bought a Dell Inspiron 8200. 2GHz pentium 4m, Geforce 4 440GO with 64MB of vram (128bit) and 4:3 display. Installed windows 98, and all my games work.

I think you're right that XP game compatibility is hardware dependent. NFS Porsche Unleashed just happens to be one of my favorite games of all time. I've struggled to varying degrees to get it working in Windows XP. Initially I tried it on a Pentium 4 with Radeon 9800SE and the game ran fairly easily in either Windows 98SE or XP. Then I tried it on my Core i3 + Radeon HD 5570 and had to trial and error for hours before I got it working.

First I use some sort of unofficial "Patch" that's supposed change the way the game handles memory. Then the next issue is the game's use of DirectX 7 is really gross and on newer graphics cards caused me all sorts of issues (crashes to desktop, freezes, glitches, etc). No manner of 3D Setup DirectX DLL hacking could resolve this with my Radeon HD 5xxx but I ended up having great success just using nGlide (and telling the game's 3D Setup I'm using a 3dfx Voodoo 2 or 3).

I can't say that this would work for you or for everyone but that is what worked for me. I've now played through half the career mode with zero issues, at 1280x1024 85Hz on my CRT including 4xMSAA and 16xAF (not sure the framerate but I'm sure it's far far more than 85fps). I'm using my wireless xbox 360 controller with analog stick + analog triggers for steering + throttle/brake. Despite the initial setup fighting, I can now enjoy this game in a way that would be difficult for me to replicate with period correct hardware.

As for the other games you mention, I don't have experience with them myself (except for NFS4 High Stakes... there is a very high quality patch that includes an XP fix and alternative Direct3D rendering options). I certainly admit that many games it's an outright struggle to get them working in XP (and in certain configurations the patches might not be successful). Whether or not the struggle is worth it is of course going to be up to the user. IMO choice and struggle (and the balance between satisfaction & frustration) has to some extent always been a part of PC gaming.

bZbZbZ wrote on 2022-06-08, 03:22:

I think you're right that XP game compatibility is hardware dependent. NFS Porsche Unleashed just happens to be one of my favor […]
Show full quote

Socket3 wrote on 2022-06-07, 19:53:

Some games, even patched / hacked will not work reliably under XP (will either not launch or will crash to desktop randomly). An […]
Show full quote

Some games, even patched / hacked will not work reliably under XP (will either not launch or will crash to desktop randomly). And it's not a short list of games either. Compatibility comes down to hardware as well. For example, I've been able to run NFS V Porsche on XP on an Athlon XP 3200+ / FX 5950 Ultra and I've been playing it on and off for over a year. But a few months ago my work moved to another city so decided to install my most played retro games on a laptop. I started with an ASUS ROG from 2014 (i7, GTX 970) running windows XP and Windows 7. While NFS5 will run, it looks horrible (like there's no texture filtering) and will crash to desktop in the garage frequently.
...
To confirm possible issues with NFS5, I installed it on one of my XP rigs (Core 2 Quad QX6800 + GTX 280) and guess what... it works fine.... I moved on to another PC that dual boots XP and 98 - an LGA775 pentium 4 630 / Geforce 6600GT. Again NFS5 is locking up under XP in menus and the garage, but much less often then on the Acer - and it works perfectly in windows 98 - despite not having any chipset drivers installed
...
To fix all these issues without spending hours looking for patches and hacks I bought a Dell Inspiron 8200. 2GHz pentium 4m, Geforce 4 440GO with 64MB of vram (128bit) and 4:3 display. Installed windows 98, and all my games work.

I think you're right that XP game compatibility is hardware dependent. NFS Porsche Unleashed just happens to be one of my favorite games of all time. I've struggled to varying degrees to get it working in Windows XP. Initially I tried it on a Pentium 4 with Radeon 9800SE and the game ran fairly easily in either Windows 98SE or XP. Then I tried it on my Core i3 + Radeon HD 5570 and had to trial and error for hours before I got it working.

First I use some sort of unofficial "Patch" that's supposed change the way the game handles memory. Then the next issue is the game's use of DirectX 7 is really gross and on newer graphics cards caused me all sorts of issues (crashes to desktop, freezes, glitches, etc). No manner of 3D Setup DirectX DLL hacking could resolve this with my Radeon HD 5xxx but I ended up having great success just using nGlide (and telling the game's 3D Setup I'm using a 3dfx Voodoo 2 or 3).

I can't say that this would work for you or for everyone but that is what worked for me. I've now played through half the career mode with zero issues, at 1280x1024 85Hz on my CRT including 4xMSAA and 16xAF (not sure the framerate but I'm sure it's far far more than 85fps). I'm using my wireless xbox 360 controller with analog stick + analog triggers for steering + throttle/brake. Despite the initial setup fighting, I can now enjoy this game in a way that would be difficult for me to replicate with period correct hardware.

As for the other games you mention, I don't have experience with them myself (except for NFS4 High Stakes... there is a very high quality patch that includes an XP fix and alternative Direct3D rendering options). I certainly admit that many games it's an outright struggle to get them working in XP (and in certain configurations the patches might not be successful). Whether or not the struggle is worth it is of course going to be up to the user. IMO choice and struggle (and the balance between satisfaction & frustration) has to some extent always been a part of PC gaming.

Well this ^ right here is a good reason to build and maintain a Windows 98 PC. There's a sizeable list of titles that only run on win9x, old hardware or old versions of directX / openAL (etc). Sure, there are patches, but I'd rather staple my sack to my thigh rather then look up and test XP patches for each of my games.... If you have the funds and the room for an extra PC for win98 games, I'd say it's worth it.

Socket3 wrote on 2022-06-11, 18:41:

Well this ^ right here is a good reason to build and maintain a Windows 98 PC. There's a sizeable list of titles that only run on win9x, old hardware or old versions of directX / openAL (etc). Sure, there are patches, but I'd rather staple my sack to my thigh rather then look up and test XP patches for each of my games.... If you have the funds and the room for an extra PC for win98 games, I'd say it's worth it.

Absolutely fair! I have two working retro Win9x PCs and I do use them. However, neither of them have enough performance to run Need for Speed Porsche Unleashed at 1280x1024 with 4xAA & 16xAF at over 85 fps. The other thing is that I personally find that Porsche Unleashed really benefits from analogue throttle control (there's enough sim in its sim-cade balance that being able to use part-throttle in the corners really improves my times and enjoyment of the game). I don't have any Win9x compatible input devices that have analogue triggers (I have a Logitech F310 in DirectInput mode, where the triggers register as on/off only). I do have a couple of xbox 360 controllers (with the official Microsoft wireless receiver for PC) and its official driver for Windows XP works flawlessly. So the pain of getting Porsche Unleashed working on my XP machine was worth it to me. Other games and other situations certainly wouldn't be worth the hassle... to each their own!

bZbZbZ wrote on 2022-06-11, 18:52:

I don't have any Win9x compatible input devices that have analogue triggers (I have a Logitech F310 in DirectInput mode, where the triggers register as on/off only).

I think I still have my Logitech Rumblepad 2 stashed somewhere. Its layout is similar to that of a PlayStation 2 controller.

IIRC, the wired (USB) version had working drivers for Win98, but it's been ages since I last used it. If it does work, it might be a nice fit for NFS and similar racing games.

Key is to keep the hardware cooled properly.

A lot of the old stuff runs crazy hot with the stock coolers.

One of the 8800Ultra cards I have ran insanely hot with the stock cooler. I replaced it with a good afteatket cooler, including VRM and RAM heatsinks and it doesn't even get warm now.

The 5950 Ultra I bought that had dead fans, I put aftermarket cooling on it and it also runs super cool.

Hardware is meant to be used. Most of what I have I bought to use at some point. I only have a few pieces that I bought because it was boxed and was a good price.

If the hardware I use dies, so be it.

Some hardware just refuses to die 😀

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-06-11, 20:18:

bZbZbZ wrote on 2022-06-11, 18:52:

I don't have any Win9x compatible input devices that have analogue triggers (I have a Logitech F310 in DirectInput mode, where the triggers register as on/off only).

I think I still have my Logitech Rumblepad 2 stashed somewhere. Its layout is similar to that of a PlayStation 2 controller.

IIRC, the wired (USB) version had working drivers for Win98, but it's been ages since I last used it. If it does work, it might be a nice fit for NFS and similar racing games.

Yes the Rumblepad 2 does have drivers for Win98. As you said, its layout is nearly identical to a PlayStation 2 controller but unfortunately that means that all four shoulder (trigger) buttons are on/off digital buttons with no analog control. So none of those four buttons can perform part throttle. It's possible to use the right stick for part throttle but I really don't have the dexterity on my right thumb to deal with that control scheme.

The newer Logitech F310 is more like a PlayStation 3 layout where the lower shoulder buttons are spring loaded triggers which can be depressed partway. It has a toggle switch on the back with two positions (Xinput and DirectInput). in X mode it acts like an xbox 360 controller. In D mode it acts like a Rumblepad 2... so although the Rumblepad 2 driver/software will work with the F310 in Win98, the triggers then behave like on/off digital buttons.

Usually I don't have much patience for repairing hardware which would need some serious tool. Capacitors replacement is not always that easy and sometimes they can be removed with a cheap soldering tool, other times they seems like impossible to remove and even installing a new one is difficult without an air desoldering tool. Not to mention PSU which I've seen not necessary breaking themself in bad ways but lowering the voltages to a point they get unstable and probably need new capacitors too.
So I usually use old hardware for short rare moments just to make installation and tests but not powered everydays for sure. Beside as a main PC I use anyway old components too (lately a Socket 775 dual core config) but with a brand new PSU; I could play even on linux old games on it but it's not about the games of course more the installation, configuration, testing of a real setup even if the test may last only few days to just see it running.

Guys, i appologize, but could somebody please ping TrashPanda? I tried to quote his message to get his attention, but so far he hasn't replied in this topic, and i'm anxious to get 16gb up and running on my old Striker II MoBo.. As a newbie member i can't PM yet, so i would really appreciate a little help 😀

bZbZbZ wrote on 2022-06-11, 23:38:

Yes the Rumblepad 2 does have drivers for Win98. As you said, its layout is nearly identical to a PlayStation 2 controller but unfortunately that means that all four shoulder (trigger) buttons are on/off digital buttons with no analog control. So none of those four buttons can perform part throttle. It's possible to use the right stick for part throttle but I really don't have the dexterity on my right thumb to deal with that control scheme.

Apparently, it's possible to use a DualShock4 on Win98. Analog triggers seem to work too.

I came across that video yesterday by chance and remembered this thread.

Just use cheap Pentium 4 build for that. 945 chipset is pretty cheap, because it's not very wanted, particulary one motherboards, that doesn't support Core 2 duo.
Those motherboards almost noone wants, so just use it for "cheap" retro computer, so they are used up. Just install Windows XP and you can build nice retro computer.
Put some cheapo PCIe graphic card into it, like radeon X300se or x1300, it will handle old games fair enough. Pentium 4 are cheap, but of course use Celeron or Celeron D.
These sets are quite durable, particulary, with sold state capacitors. I think, they can often serve even like 10 years, if used only occasionally.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-06-27, 09:53:

bZbZbZ wrote on 2022-06-11, 23:38:

Yes the Rumblepad 2 does have drivers for Win98. As you said, its layout is nearly identical to a PlayStation 2 controller but unfortunately that means that all four shoulder (trigger) buttons are on/off digital buttons with no analog control. So none of those four buttons can perform part throttle. It's possible to use the right stick for part throttle but I really don't have the dexterity on my right thumb to deal with that control scheme.

Apparently, it's possible to use a DualShock4 on Win98. Analog triggers seem to work too.

I came across that video yesterday by chance and remembered this thread.

That's pretty neat, and a great option for those who have a DualShock4 lying around! (I don't, my newest consoles are a PS3 and a Wii U!) As far as I'm aware, the DualShock4 needs to stay connected to the Windows 98 PC with the USB cable. I happen to have two of the xbox 360 controllers which can both talk to a single Microsoft receiver in WinXP. Wireless is something I enjoy, so much so that I will put up with their horrible xbox 360 d-pad...