VOGONS


First post, by starhawk

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So I'm looking at buying this Toshiba Libretto 50CT on eBay. I know it's got a bad display in... some way. The seller is trying to be helpful but I get the distinct impression that he's very much not a 'computer guy' and far removed from an 'electronics guy'. It also doesn't help that this thing is missing its power brick. From what I've seen and heard, the LCD panel is visibly intact, just that the dude can't bring up a display. In the past, it's made all the right noises for attempting to boot, but the screen remains dark.

I grew up in the 1990s and I learned computers and electronics at the same time. Glue logic chips are my programming language and I look at computers through the lens of electronics. I'm a hardware guy for DANG sure. Oddly, I'm not a gamer... I just know my chips and how they fall and how to make them rise again 😉 and I've got stuff in the closet that's as old as I am give or take a year or two, a goodly bit of newer kit, and one or two pieces that might be a few years older. Most of it at least tries to boot. Some of it's museum grade for sure. There's an NEC MultiSpeed EL that boots, last I checked, a Data General One of some version that needs power bricks (yes, bricks, plural!) but there's nothing obviously physically wrong with it outside of the old battery compartment (thank heavens!) so it probably works... and I have an original IBM MDA card, tested, working, known good! (Insert requisite 'Indiana Jones' "That belongs in a museum!" clip here...)

I know that Toshibas of this era can be a bottomless rabbit hole to another dimension 🤣 -- I've got a Banker's Box in there, in the 'not working' side of the collection, half-full of Portege T3400CTs, three of em, all parts machines. There's three FPGAs on the motherboard and they like to die, and given that the BIOS' error reporting is, it just freezes where it hits an error and you jam LEDs up into the parallel port and decode the binary... yeah, I was in downtown Durham NC for Hurricane Fran, way back when, and that wasn't a rainy enough day 😉 I asked the other nerdy guy I know IRL -- he has a fondness for Commodore, for what it's worth, having grown up on em, and now he runs the local tech shop -- how he'd troubleshoot that, and his reaction was just "I'd cry." I can't disagree.

So I could be looking at anything from 'it needs a backlight' to 'complete basketcase'. I've plenty of time on my hands, although not much money -- I'm actually on Disability, here in the USA, as although I'm quite nerdy, it's not in a way that's monetarily useful (I'm a pretty lousy troubleshooter TBH) and I adult about the same as I 'dance': I can flail about a-dork-ably and that's about as good as it gets.

I'm not afraid to post a troubleshooting thread, and component-level repair doesn't scare me. I have multiple (cheap) multimeters, and although I don't have a logic analyzer, I do have a logic *probe*, and I have an ancient oscilloscope I've literally no idea how to use -- it's a Tektronix 422, it was literally laid out three years before the moonshot 🤣... I also have a Hakko 926 iron, and I recently got a hot air pencil thing, although the latter is more useful, in my hands, for blowing important-looking grains of electronic rice off the PCB than anything else 😉 and the former has more than once made me consider changing my name to Jeff, given my proclivity for shorting IC pins in all the wrong ways... at least I'm sort of OK as long as I stick to through-hole work! I'm also not afraid of jank repairs. If you watch GamersNexus on YouTube -- all that proprietary stuff they say you can't reuse after the system's hosed? Yeah that line makes me giggle, unless it makes me cackle. Reusing all that stuff is actually my jam when it comes to more modern gear. It's hilarious how much low-end office stuff and older thin client gear I have around. You get used to doing all sorts of... junkyard engineering, I guess I'd call it, if you want to do computer stuff at my budget level. I'm hoping that this is merely a backlight issue, and I'm hoping that I can kinda-sorta make the backlight from one of those busted T3400CTs fit in there somehow. It ain't regulation, but what works, works, you know?

But my big concern is, how much info is out there on these? Coz what I can't do is operate in a vacuum. If I've got a service manual that gives me port pinouts and component layouts that's one thing. If I've got schematics, that's a whole lot more. If there's a community out there, even a smallish one, that I can talk to, *and* there's good documentation or there's been a reverse-engineering effort and known-good docs have come out of that, that'd be amazing... but if all I've got is a user manual that tells me not to try and stick 5.25in floppies in a 3.5in floppy drive and whatever the equivalent was, in that time, of "Your CD drive tray isn't a cupholder, Threepwood!" (what a ridiculous name for a pirate... or really anyone at all...) then... man, I don't know if I want to dive that deep all on my own. I'm not certified on scuba gear, you know 😉

To be clear -- I'm NOT looking for advice on whether or not I should buy the laptop. I'm NOT looking for advice on what may or may not be wrong with it, or whether I'm getting a good price on it (which is why I've not mentioned that part!).

All I want to know is, what documentation is out there, what information is out there, what resources are out there for a home hobbyist wanting to repair a machine known to be in a damaged condition, as identified in the thread title and the initial sentence of the post. So, like they say (or so I'm told) on that dumb cartoon TV show with the chronically cosmically drunk Doc Brown knocokoff -- "Show me what you gooooooooooot!" 😀

Reply 1 of 14, by snufkin

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Hi, there's what looks like a pretty good service manual: http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/manuals/Toshi … ce%20Manual.pdf

I've been trying to sort out a 110CT so already found that seem to be lots of good service manual for Toshiba stuff. Looks like the Libretto gives out error codes by blinking its DC In LED, so no mucking around the parallel port adapters.

Reply 2 of 14, by wiretap

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Most of them on Ebay with a black screen have a dead hard drive. They won't display anything on the screen if the hard drive doesn't initialize. Mine was this way when I got it. After replacement of the drive, it booted right up.

My Github
Circuit Board Repair Manuals

Reply 3 of 14, by starhawk

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That sounds... relatively easy 🤣.

I see that up to 815mb HDDs are supported by the 50CT's BIOS... any guess as to how it responds to flash media? I have some fairly tiny DoM (Disk-On-Module) 44pin IDE flash "SSD" devices from thin clients, I tinker with those -- old 32bit VIA-based HP and pre-Dell-assimilation Wyse units mostly. I'm pretty sure I have a 512mb one?

...also, one wonders if the 50CT and 70CT actually have those BIOS limits or if that's something that's just in the user manual and the BIOS doesn't really care. (I could see it being either way, TBH.) I *know* I have 1gb SD cards and a couple SD-to-44pin IDE converters, and even though they're ungodly slow that won't matter here, these machines are far, far slower 😉 I have a CompactFlash card somewhere as well and it's a nice one (Class 10 SanDisk Extreme III) but I can't remember if it's 512mb or 1gb. I'm pretty sure it's the larger size...

Reply 4 of 14, by Thermalwrong

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It works great with flash media, no troubles with LBA, just make sure to use an adapter that fits the housing - because the IDE connector is so deep in there and the drive height is only 8mm. IT's ages ago and I can't find it now, but I had a CF adapter that was the around full size (length, width, not height) of a regular 2.5" hard drive. I Got that to fit in by snipping off the end of that adapter where the LEDs are, so it could fit into the libretto.

The Librettos are usually quite robust since they're really just 1-chip chipset + RAM, CPU & VGA, just the area where the CMOS battery connects can get corroded (I have a dead 100CT with this). Sometimes the area around where the CMOS battery connected will cleaning with IPA+vinegar to stabilise it. My 100CT is dead, my 70CT is limping along in spite of the damage despite my efforts to repair it. When traces are damaged between layers / vias on one of these, that's it, it's done.
Additionally the plastics can be very fragile and break since they're weird mixes of ABS + glass/carbon fibre material, rather than just regular plastic. Some of that is exacerbated by incorrect disassembly though, make sure to read the service manual and pinch the sides around where the battery fits to unclip the top. Pulling up the display + palmrest assembly from the back of the libretto, results in broken plastic.

If the screen worked, something I've spotted on 2 of mine and many sold on ebay is that the TFT LCD fades in the corners, not sure what causes that yet. It could be the polariser, capacitors, or some panel issue. I've been figuring out how an AT056TN52 / TN53 could fit, it should do but it would need some serious adapter as well as handling of the LED backlight.
I bought 2 replacement screens from a seller on Aliexpress but that seller didn't test at all, one screen is great and the other is ruined, all 4 corners fading to white.

Reply 5 of 14, by rasz_pl

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Those used to be listed all over Yahoo Japan for ~$30 so that might be another avenue for getting a working one/spare unit for parts

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 6 of 14, by starhawk

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Good news, everyone! I got the Libretto... and the screen is FINE!

CMOS battery tests as dead-as-a-doornail, primary battery is giving me a steady amber light on the indicator, and the hard drive sounds like it has the same level of rod knock as the $50 AMC Eagle in that one episode of "Junkyard Digs" on YouTube where Kevin wrote "Do you have time to talk to us about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?" on the valve cover of the engine, "because if it was going to knock like a Jehovah's Witness, [he] figured it should talk like one, too..."! (and, no, there is not a missing zero off that pricetag.)

Amazingly, there's juuust enough life left in the ancient hard drive to spin up and at least *attempt* to boot Win95, but it hobbles its way to that sounding like a robot with a bum leg the whole way. Alas, I don't have the login credentials it wants. I need to swap the drive anyways... I'd really rather not get that 420mb one (insert Colorado references here) from the one cannibalized Portege T3400CT I got working (briefly) from the three that turned to parts machines in my hands -- see first post -- before its own motherboard self-nuked out of shame and loneliness or something, IDK. Annoyingly, my CF choices are a 4gb Seagate microdrive with rampant stiction issues or that SanDisk one which is... four gig, sad trombone. Womp womp womp waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

BUT. I do have these 44pin Disk-on-Modules I mentioned before. Can anyone confirm whether the 815mb limit is actually enforced in the Libretto 50CT's BIOS? Coz the two I have here are a 1gb module and a 128mb module 🤣. I REALLY don't want to drop DOS 6.22 and Win3.11 For Workgroups on something with a Pentium 75 🤣, that's waaay overpowered for Win3.x... I might be interested in looking at some alternate Win95 shells tho. I remember Packard Bell Navigator -- it was far better put together than the PC it was on, 🤣, although that hardware DOES set a particularly low bar, as such...

Also: I don't have the floppy drive, port replicator, or dock. Any suggestions as to the best place to pick up at least the drive and replicator?

Reply 7 of 14, by Byrd

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Congrats, they're great little units.

There is no hard disk size limitation, I've used a 16GB CF card in mine, however you need to block out some space as unformatted around 8GB for the hibernation partition - if not put in place data corruption occurs. I think I put in a 500MB gap in mine around 2 x FAT32 partitions - Google around to find the exact space you need to block out.

Windows 95 works fine on these, or Windows 98 also decent with 32MB RAM and solid state disk.

The port replicator - full size or back panel - usually is around on eBay, quite useful for plugging in an external mouse, KB, monitor for desk use.

Reply 8 of 14, by starhawk

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In that case I know what I'm putting in, I've got an 8gb Swissbit SSD from back when SLC NAND meant something 🤣. Got it for a song, it was my WinXP nostalgia box drive for forever... then I needed to expand it. I hardly ever used the dang thing so I've been lazy rebuilding it 🤣.

Meh.

I popped it open to investigate the very dead CMOS battery, BTW, looks like a VARTA coin cell job -- 2x 1220s side-by-side in the usual green heatshrink. Any guess as to voltage and chemistry? Also, I *seriously* dodged a bullet. Legit I've never seen this and I bet if I sent photos to Adrian over in his Digital Basement he'd accuse me of either witchcraft or Photoshop (and I'm not sure which is worse, in context). The batteries have clearly leaked for some time, but the PCB is ENTIRELY UNTOUCHED. Not joking. All the pot metal framework, though, and the little bit they used as an excuse of a heatsink? Corroded to high heck. COVERED in white crusty and a bit pitted -- but ONLY a bit pitted, and it's all surface stuff.

Steel wool and gloves will take care of that, given the right gloop to soak it in, which is the other reason I'm asking about chemistry -- do I need the usual "votes Maybe Something Coulda Been Done In Dallas for president in Cyrillic" white vinegar, or something a bit more like what my neighbors' pal Tim's truck leaves behind on the tarmac under where the battery drips? 😜

(Also I apologize for my humor. I promise I'm being restrained for the sake of civility.)

Reply 9 of 14, by starhawk

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Small update. A local tech-shop pal suggested 70% isopropyl for the corrosion, but wasn't sure whether steel wool was a good idea to use with it or not. I decided to use a dollar store scrubby pad, basically the green side of a "Scotch Brite" but as sold from Dollar Tree in a pack of several, sans sponges. It got pretty torn up but did all right. 150 grit on the heatsink and 80 grit on the inside bottom cover? Much better, if a bit unorthodox 🤣.

The SwissBit SSD proved slightly too tall to fit, I think it's a nonstandard size -- it's not quite the really, *really* old 12.5mm height that predated 9mm drives, but it's certainly taller than them nonetheless! I have a 20gb IBM TravelStar from an old Dell Latitude CPi-series laptop that has been pressed into service instead.

@Byrd -- I unfortunately could not find that hard drive mapping information, but I'm about the world's worst Googler. Maybe you have a link stuck away in a corner somewhere that you could share? Sorry <blush>

In the meantime it's formatted to 7.5gb FAT32 using my Win7 netbook, with the rest left blank and unformatted. I've obtained a CD image of Win95 OSR2.5 + Windows Plus Pack, and I have a suitable DOS boot disk image as well; as I have only the one internal drive for this laptop at the moment, with neither the port replicator nor the full docking unit available to me -- the seller has reported that the person he got it from apparently started off as some sort of small-scale independent publishing house before pivoting to vintage computer collection; I'm told that he had quite a collection but has long since transcended, himself, to the Great RMA Center In The Sky. The dude who sold me the laptop, presumably one small part of what little, I'm told, remains of that collection, says he'll look around for the rest, but he really doesn't sound optimistic. I'll check in with him on Monday, see if he's found anything over the weekend.

I think I'm going to see just how much charge the battery will hold, scientifically, as far as time alive goes. If it's at least an hour, I'll leave it be -- if not, I have a considerable stack of 18650 cells from old laptops and such that I need to test for remaining capacity anyways; I even have all the testing equipment except for a battery holder, which I've ordered from eBay. I just checked, the seller hasn't shipped yet (!!)... I sent them a bit of biting sarcasm, that should light a fire under their butts. I almost hate to do it, but it *is* effective -- and it's not like they didn't earn it. Been on eBay about a decade now, I buy regularly, and I've been bit enough times that I've built up an immunity to the low end stuff. Still, a bit of timely communication in a pointed manner often avoids having to complain to Customer Service later.

I also managed to put together a BIOS battery for the system to replace the original, a pair of what look like CR1025 cells -- they're MUCH too small to be CR1225s! -- in series, the leads fell off as I unwrapped them and they smelled like the cheapest of Easter egg dye kits. Into the bin with em -- the replacement is a pair of CR1620 cells, from the BIOS batteries of newer, larger computers (ones that weren't nearly so lasting) glommed together with electrical tape and a bit of super glue to keep it from coming apart in all sorts of nasty sticky gunky ways later on. I even had a matching bit of cable, with TWO useful connectors of the right sort, from an old digital picture frame with a horrible screen. Finding a spot for it in the chassis will be a challenge, given the comparative size, but I'm up to it.

So for now the plan is, drop the contents of the floppy image onto the drive and hope it boots (I've used Rufus to make it bootable with... some sort of MS-DOS image... whatever's built in there, 🤣, so I've got at least a fighting chance...) as well as the contents of the CD that came with my PCMCIA/Cardbus (it's switchable!) SCSI CD Writer Plus! external CD-RW drive, boot that, install the drivers from CD, then use that to bootstrap to the Win95 CD and install that.

I've not decided whether or not to play around with LiteStep. I kind of want to, but I also want to use this to play some old DOS and early Windows games -- MYST (I'm a massive fanboy) and a few silly-stupid things I remember from my childhood, including most especially some stuff that came with a Packard Bell system (I may have mentioned it) which my mother had in the mid-1990s that had almost exactly the same specs as this thing. If LiteStep is going to interfere with that, it's right out. I've never used it, though... 😒

I'll do the software stuff over the weekend, I think, as well as (hopefully) testing the system battery and installing the BIOS batt. In the meantime: any advice on LiteStep, per the last paragraph?

Reply 10 of 14, by Thermalwrong

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For the battery, I found that early Toshiba batteries use 17670 (4/3A) cells. Too small for 18650's 18mm diameter cells.
I've found one great alternative though, the Acer AL14A32 batteries contain 16650 cells, which are perfect to replace them! just needs the controller reflashed to know the new, much larger capacity, assuming they're new cells. I'm currently half-heartedly trying that on a Toshiba 50CT battery, haven't finished yet though, but it seems Toshiba smart batteries aren't all that smart. Just an EEPROM to record some status info for each pack.

For the BIOS / RTC battery, better to just remove it. If you want a proper replacement, make sure to put a NIMH in its place because it'll be putting power into that cell while the laptop's powered.

For the booting, it'll only boot off the floppy drive via PCMCIA, the sony FA-P1 works too. They're both rebrands of the YE-DATA Flashbuster drive. (huh, the only search hits I get are my own posts, nice). As an alternative, you could format / make bootable a disk on another computer, then put it in the libretto. That's my usual method.

Since it's a 50CT, Windows 98 is a bit of a stretch so probably some condensed later OS woudl be best.

Reply 11 of 14, by sergioag

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I got a Toshiba Libretto 50ct just a few days ago. I'm amazed that its battery still works (original!) and lasts as much as it's supposed to (spoiler alert: not much). Makes me wonder why much newer devices have dead batteries already.
Going to the brightness issue, mine is just ok. The only game that makes me sort of complain about it is Duke Nukem 3D, but that may be just the low dynamic range of the screen. I don't really know. If/when the backlight dies, I will be trying a LED swap. I don't know of anyone who has done that, but I'm not afraid of trying. I will post my results in any case.

Reply 12 of 14, by Thermalwrong

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Doing a full screen swap is something I've researched a bit, it wouldn't be easy and would require some kind of custom adapter. The original screen is the LQ61D133 - all the original LCDs are pretty dim IMO. There are modern equivalents around 5.6" that use the same RGB input that the libretto uses, but those are 6 to 8 bit per colour channel rather than the Libretto's 4-bits per channel. Apparently the way to do it is to omit the first 2 bits so just don't use R0 / R1 for instance, then connect the 4x bits to R2-6.
But, that's probably not what you're saying to do - I have a broken screen on one of mine and the parts are basically not available, so it's something I've thought about but am not putting the time into yet. Idk how the LED backlight power would work either.

If you're just talking about retrofitting LEDs to the backlight in place of the existing CCFL, you'll probably be the first to pack one into a Libretto, but I'm keen to see it 😁 Beware that the libretto has very tough to find small-pitch, low-height connectors, so my thinking is it would be easiest to pilfer that off of an existing inverter PCB, or see if a retrofit would be possible like this guy did for Thinkpads: https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/thinkpad/led-kit.shtml

Reply 13 of 14, by sergioag

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Given that mine still has a decent backlight, I will not be attempting a LED replacement any time soon unless I can get a backup LCD to do testing, but I'm always searching. If/when I do it, I will surely publish it so other people can follow.

Reply 14 of 14, by SteveC

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I got a CF card working in my 50CT after some fun and games. The height being the biggest hurdle! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNbR3g8whD0

I also did an LED replacement for a CCFL in an old Compaq 386 here which might give you some inspiration Saved a Compaq Contura 3/25

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