LSS10999 wrote on 2022-03-01, 02:09:

The prerequisite is that the mouse itself must be recognizable by BIOS/CSM as standard USB mouse. Some recent mice are too advanced to be recognized as standard mouse and they'll never work under BIOS/CSM. I also had USB mice that behaved erratically (like wrong X/Y axes) when operating in BIOS/CSM.

Considering that even the modernest of UEFI bioses is still using the USB boot protocol (the same protocol that was used by even the oldest of USB BIOSes) , this would mean that such a mouse would not work in e.g. UEFI setup. I suppose there is still some pressure to manufacturers to avoid breaking the USB boot protocol since graphical UEFI BIOSes are a thing, so I'm hoping such broken mice are a real minority.

All mouses I had did support the USB boot protocol, even complicated ones like Logitech Unifyng wireless receivers and some Bluetooth adapters (see HCI2HID). I have not tried Bolt receivers, but I suppose they also do -- otherwise users would complain about not being able to use the mouse on the BIOS setup.

LSS10999 wrote on 2022-03-01, 02:09:

In that case the mouse will most likely behave the same when connected to PS/2 via adapter.

If the mouse is so recent that it does not work with the USB boot protocol, then it for sure does not offer passive PS/2 compatibility. The mouse basically needs additional hardware for that, I'd guess it'd be much higher in the manufacturer's list of things to cut 😀 . To make it work on PS/2, you'd need an active adapter (e.g. put a Raspberry Pi in the middle), and then you can use standard HID, not boot protocol, so that any mouse that works on Windows without drivers would work. See https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dekunuke … retro-computers

Sphere478 wrote on 2022-03-01, 04:33:

It (the bios) supports usb keyboard but usb mouse is not working I haven’t tried the keyboard on usb in win 3.11 though.

So it supports a USB keyboard, but not a USB mouse, and there are no USB related options in the BIOS at all ?
Well that's new 😜

I really don't quite get why people keep obsessing about USB input of mere peripherals.
For thumbdrives and hard disks, sure, it's interesting. But mice and keyboards?

I mean, it's not like one needs these machines for long, productive work or anything, so why not use generic stuff on ps2 and AT basis, that's really plenty out there?

There are new, native ps2 mice being built:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/233477457633

There's the cherry optical that actually looks the part, despite the scroll wheel:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/194803371910
(that's being shipped with PS2 adapter)

And, there's, technically, even an optical three button mouse without a scroll wheel, if you can find it:
https://www.cdiscount.com/informatique/clavie … 0857121725.html

That thing came from HP and IBM and was introduced by logitech in 2013, so I'm rather positive it does PS2.
https://fccid.io/MSIP-REM-DZL-M-U0043-O

The black version is being sold, but at idiotic prices from 60 bucks to double that. Apparently, people like CAD users who actuall need the middle finger button more than a scroll wheel are seeking those.

So, sure, everything discussed in this forum is an obsession, but let's keep it real that if it's just about playing Monkey Island, there are really simple, cheap solutions?

Btw., I may be a bit biased in all this because I was enthusiastic about USB when it arrived in 1996 - but for any environment outside a PnP OS, or even anything before win XP, I've had nothing but grief with it. Like, booting to CMOS, inconsistent behaviour with power saving, the lot.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-01, 12:27:

So, sure, everything discussed in this forum is an obsession, but let's keep it real that if it's just about playing Monkey Island, there are really simple, cheap solutions?

The other day I threw away the mouse I was using to play Monkey Island because the optical sensor was getting repeatedly stuck in my (fully white painted) desk.
Sure I could have got a mousepad 😀 , but unlike keyboards, no way in hell I'm going back to using ball mouses. Even cheap/early optical mouses are crap.
There has been a definite improvement in optical sensor quality recently. Something as recent as a MX Anywhere 2 still has problems on some surfaces where the MX Anywhere 3 does not.

Besides, for Pentium lateish 9x era systems, USB mice were already quite common. That is why I would be surprised that a system with USB ports and no/one PS/2 ports would have an incomplete USB BIOS. I would have complained at the era. USB mice were supposed to be transparent.
Anyway, I guess this particular mobo may be slightly too old, since from a quick search the BIOS looks to be 95ish. So yeah, not a lot of good options.

javispedro1 wrote on 2022-03-01, 13:23:

The other day I threw away the mouse I was using to play Monkey Island because the optical sensor was getting repeatedly stuck in my (fully white painted) desk.

Monkey Island appears to be the definitive retro computing killer application.
Maybe I just fell for the marketing, but were't those "laser" mice supposed to work on really any surface? If so, I wouldn't be suprised if even the early ones of these still do PS2.

javispedro1 wrote on 2022-03-01, 13:23:

no way in hell I'm going back to using ball mouses.

No one will, ever. Ball mice are the CRT of input devices, only much worse. But all my above examples are optical, of course.
So if it's really about using a pre-ps2 IBM compatibles, kudos to those heroes that gave us ps2-serial converters.

Then again, it's funny how strongly our comfort needs adapt to progress.
I played through several games, including three episodes of DOOM in UV without saving, on a plastik brick known as the 1989 pattern Logitech Pilot/First.
And if you think that thing is unergonomic, consider this atrocity, with corroded rollers. 😜

javispedro1 wrote on 2022-03-01, 13:23:

Besides, for Pentium era systems, USB mice were already quite common.

Really? How do you define Pentium Era? Year 2000 onwards, yes. But for the first odd years, that port was known as the "useless serial bus" that supported "plug and pray".

Well, where I'm sitting, we're trying to figure out how to maintain our comfort zone without Russian gas. First world problems...

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-01, 14:04:

Monkey Island appears to be the definitive retro computing killer application. Maybe I just fell for the marketing, but were't t […]
Show full quote

javispedro1 wrote on 2022-03-01, 13:23:

The other day I threw away the mouse I was using to play Monkey Island because the optical sensor was getting repeatedly stuck in my (fully white painted) desk.

Monkey Island appears to be the definitive retro computing killer application.
Maybe I just fell for the marketing, but were't those "laser" mice supposed to work on really any surface? If so, I wouldn't be suprised if even the early ones of these still do PS2.

javispedro1 wrote on 2022-03-01, 13:23:

no way in hell I'm going back to using ball mouses.

No one will, ever. Ball mice are the CRT of input devices, only much worse. But all my above examples are optical, of course.
So if it's really about using a pre-ps2 IBM compatibles, kudos to those heroes that gave us ps2-serial converters.

Then again, it's funny how strongly our comfort needs adapt to progress.
I played through several games, including three episodes of DOOM in UV without saving, on a plastik brick known as the 1989 pattern Logitech Pilot/First.
And if you think that thing is unergonomic, consider this atrocity, with corroded rollers. 😜

javispedro1 wrote on 2022-03-01, 13:23:

Besides, for Pentium era systems, USB mice were already quite common.

Really? How do you define Pentium Era? Year 2000 onwards, yes. But for the first odd years, that port was known as the "useless serial bus" that supported "plug and pray".

Well, where I'm sitting, we're trying to figure out how to maintain our comfort zone without Russian gas. First world problems...

I have an exceptionally nice Microsoft serial Ball mouse, its one of the nicest ball mice I have ever used and would happily use it on a more modern system if I could .. but as a daily driver .. no the 502 lightspeed I have is far too nice.

Hmm, I find it funny that sphere is capable of populating an unpopulated socket 7 socket and soldering it on, but is uncapaable of plugging in a 1-2 Dollar PS2 header into his motherboard.

I find these comments amusing and fascinating at the same time! 🙂

I'm still using ball mice - with three fancy buttons!

And I do think of the "Pentium era", when Pentium 60 to ~120 systems were around, just before USB appeared (roughly 1993 to 1996).

PS: Here's a "patient" of mine that I'm trying to cure.
His tail got severely hurt. Poor little fellow.

Edit: Edited.

Original vaporwave art ftw. That's pretty amazing.

Warlord wrote on 2022-03-01, 16:37:

Hmm, I find it funny that sphere is capable of populating an unpopulated socket 7 socket and soldering it on, but is uncapaable of plugging in a 1-2 Dollar PS2 header into his motherboard.

This is what I plan on doing, I gotta find one though. It’s just, I already have the usb setup and my setup is usb. I was hoping I could just download a driver. No prob though, a ps2 header is a good option.

Alternately there is a way to remove the AT din connnector and install a mini din ps/2 port. Idk if I want to do it though because I like the AT din.

Should be really easy to fix this though, right ? 😆
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbHr7ULpusM

"super easy", as ordered.... no mentioning of it having to be cheap, so....

bestemor wrote on 2022-03-01, 20:03:

Should be really easy to fix this though, right ? 😆
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbHr7ULpusM

"super easy", as ordered.... no mentioning of it having to be cheap, so....

That's interesting..

When I saw the adapter/interface board and that 40pin connector is was like:
"Oh, wow! They figured they can use the ATA port like a cut-down AT-Bus! Not bad!"

A few seconds later.. Raspberry Pi joins the scene. 😂

bestemor wrote on 2022-03-01, 20:03:

Should be really easy to fix this though, right ? 😆
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbHr7ULpusM

"super easy", as ordered.... no mentioning of it having to be cheap, so....

That is pretty cool!

Solo761 wrote on 2022-03-01, 10:01:

Either way it's not easy to find PS/2 compatible mouse nowadays...

I'll try some brand name mouse, I have Logitech Hero g502 on my main PC so I can try with that one, but I wouldn't be optimistic. I have some "office" logitech mice from 5+ years ago and these do work, but they're not being sold anymore...

Used to be sold for less than $10, now look at them....!
( one does wonder who bought the 1 for 98 euros !)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153909979025

"LOGITECH RX 250 OEM MOUSE"

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-250-Optical-M … k/dp/B000QWICZW

javispedro1 wrote on 2022-03-01, 11:38:

Considering that even the modernest of UEFI bioses is still using the USB boot protocol (the same protocol that was used by even the oldest of USB BIOSes) , this would mean that such a mouse would not work in e.g. UEFI setup. I suppose there is still some pressure to manufacturers to avoid breaking the USB boot protocol since graphical UEFI BIOSes are a thing, so I'm hoping such broken mice are a real minority.

All mouses I had did support the USB boot protocol, even complicated ones like Logitech Unifyng wireless receivers and some Bluetooth adapters (see HCI2HID). I have not tried Bolt receivers, but I suppose they also do -- otherwise users would complain about not being able to use the mouse on the BIOS setup.

If the mouse is so recent that it does not work with the USB boot protocol, then it for sure does not offer passive PS/2 compatibility. The mouse basically needs additional hardware for that, I'd guess it'd be much higher in the manufacturer's list of things to cut 😀 . To make it work on PS/2, you'd need an active adapter (e.g. put a Raspberry Pi in the middle), and then you can use standard HID, not boot protocol, so that any mouse that works on Windows without drivers would work. See https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dekunuke … retro-computers

I'm not entirely sure about the USB boot protocol, but my personal experience, however, was that those mice that don't work with BIOS do work with UEFI, and they work correctly. I think modern UEFI can also use HID drivers to handle more advanced devices if applicable, which is not the case for BIOS, though it might also work with well-designed CSM.

For example, my Corsair USB keyboard would automatically switch to BIOS mode (blinking SCROLL LOCK) during boot or in an OS that doesn't have its own USB stack, but operates in normal mode (no blinking SCROLL LOCK) while in UEFI.

Solo761 wrote on 2022-03-01, 10:01:

Either way it's not easy to find PS/2 compatible mouse nowadays...

I can always find both ps/2 and serial mice, but I'm not fussy what they look like. Just have to work 😀

bestemor wrote on 2022-03-01, 23:52:

Used to be sold for less than $10, now look at them....! ( one does wonder who bought the 1 for 98 euros !) […]
Show full quote

Used to be sold for less than $10, now look at them....!
( one does wonder who bought the 1 for 98 euros !)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153909979025

"LOGITECH RX 250 OEM MOUSE"

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-250-Optical-M … k/dp/B000QWICZW

Yup, they were all over the place and now they're rarity 😀. I even kept my old MX500 from 10+ years ago, it also works on these simple green USB -> PS/2 adapters.

debs3759 wrote on 2022-03-02, 00:51:

I can always find both ps/2 and serial mice, but I'm not fussy what they look like. Just have to work 😀

New in store or used? 😀

Used yes, with varying prices, but new not so much. When I bought these three mice I mentioned I actually wanted to buy few PS/2 mice for "backup". Out of about at least 30 different mice in that store not one was PS/2, only USB. And none of them even had PS/2 support mentioned. And I've been reading their boxes for at least half an hour 😅.

Solo761 wrote on 2022-03-02, 07:42:

Yup, they were all over the place and now they're rarity 😀.

Think you just gave a comprehensive definition of 98.7 % of all legacy parts out there. Should have realized then that PS2 laser mice won't be around forever on this silly planet.
My thoughts exactly on buying a NOS K6-III+ 400ATZ for € 6,95 in 2011 - now look what mess has become of those. 😁

Solo761 wrote on 2022-03-02, 07:42:

Used yes, with varying prices, but new not so much.

What, stores, there are stores for these things?
On line, well, especially serial ones there are plenty new ones around. Ball ones, of course.
Just impulse-clicked a sealed Logitech M-S61 for a whole Euro - possibly the most primitive mechanical mouse ever, the very pinnacle of an evolution, I love it.

Solo761 wrote on 2022-03-02, 07:42:

And I've been reading their boxes for at least half an hour

You probably got it right in your earlier post: Once Taiwan comes up with an even cheaper to produce mouse controller, they'll drop the ps2 support like it's hot - things below a certain market share simply don't happen in capitalism. But even if not, manufacturers omit the adapter and don't document the functionality because a correct data sheet is so 1980s, when new mice were developed every three years and cost a month's wage.
Some major brands will have competent support staff to answer such questions, the other 98 % asking "ps what, you bloody geek?"

Used ones, well, mice might be one of the the more problematic retro gear to buy used, but most are dirt cheap because, well, dirt. But if you're willing to touch old PCs then you'll be no stranger to some amount of grime and dust? The main superpower with mice is the audacity and skill to disassemble them for cleaning - an activity large parts of western population will consider either mortally dangerous, beneath them, beyond their ability or all three.
Every Logitech mouse I've ever encountered was surprisingly easy to field strip.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-02, 08:19:

Used ones, well, mice might be one of the the more problematic retro gear to buy used, but most are dirt cheap because, well, dirt. But if you're willing to touch old PCs then you'll be no stranger to some amount of grime and dust? The main superpower with mice is the audacity and skill to disassemble them for cleaning - an activity large parts of western population will consider either mortally dangerous, beneath them, beyond their ability or all three.
Every Logitech mouse I've ever encountered was surprisingly easy to field strip.

Speaking of.. I just finished cleaning that mouse.
It's still yellowed, though. And to my surprise consist of no active components, just some potentiometers, 4 caps and two switches.
Hm. Must be some Atari ST or C64 mouse
that uses the computer's paddle pins for X/Y data?

Edit: Picture from the inside attached.

Jo22 wrote on 2022-03-02, 12:30:

And to my surprise consist of no active components, just some potentiometers

Interesting. Same thoughts when I first had to repair my Logitech Wingman. Just the fire switches and a 100k poti per axis, attached to the cable.
The IBM game port takes 8 bit samples of that, it's elegantly simple.
Guess you could turn that into a mouse if you define the 50 % position of every poti as "center of the screen" etc.

If the Potis are somwhere near 100k, try attaching a db15 and using it to play Tie-Fighter!

I'm rather confident that this forum will have some non-IBM home coputer enthsiasts that can tell you right away which one used that kind of mouse interface.