I think I've seen similar things happening even with older CPUs like the Athlon XP SSE1 only cpus with linux distributions that were working like latest x86 i686 versions but web browsers ended reporting many errors like that. I think many other dependencies are requiring SSE2 and above anyway. Until now anyway with SSSE3 I didn't find many or any problems in logs or installation. Anyway this sort of things aren't really user oriented when those CPUs would easily be able to perform ok for modern basic tasks. But at the end there're so many other things let's take for example the video codec used and upgraded too soon basically making any video decoding engine obsolete afer a while. All the GPUs I have can't decode VP9 not to mention AV1 while there're low end 2015 mobile cheapest SoC that had GPUs decoding VP9 in hardware. I understand the advanced compression of these new codecs but I don't understand how any modern GPU can't decode a new codec using the many units they have to at least offload a bit the new task instead of becoming useless on this task.

386SX wrote on 2022-03-27, 11:17:

I agree that if we compare a common 80's CRT TV to a modern 4K TV panel there's not even sense to compare them but at the end they both does the same task from a concept point of view. I'm not saying that the progress that arrived to a 4K TV OLED panel isn't welcome, of course they are awesome from any technical point of view but at the end the average consumer I suppose will not even configure that TV for the native source resolution. Maybe using some old 576i 1080i signal on it and just saying "..colors are saturated and the image is brighter than ever.." but do they use that panel for something that panel would deserve to be used? Are the average consumer real cinema fans with example hundreds original genuine supports they will benefit that panel from? Or even are disc based movies still a common option instead of the "on demand" (equal to not phisically own anything of course if that's progress) TV modern services?

Then I undestand even in the 90's PC got upgraded soon, but they were the real "future" in those days and I understand as we all probably felt just upgrading them beside the need, was interesting. But I also remember having my 80386SX based cheap second hand machine from 1994/5 to late 1998/99 and I didn't even care about tech upgrades in those times. I jumped from MSDOS/Win 3.1 to a Win 98 K6-2 machine but without a real need just like nowdays I see people buy entire new TV just cause the DVB-T2 whatever switch when a 20$/E decoder would just do the same.

TV sets:
It depends, the European PAL standard in 576i was quite a bit better than NTSC. Compared to mature CRT screens, the first flatcreens were more compact and had lower power consumption and higher resolution and no flicker. In any other respect, (lighting, contrast, colors, movement) they were abysmal. But as you wrote: Both served the same concept and both were perfectly sufficient to let children rot away in stupid ignorance in front of them.

From a mere production point of view, if you still were to buy a factory new TV set in 2022, for whatever strange reason, it might as well be 4k. But,
- how much of today's real world content was actually produced anywhere near 4k quality - never mind the distribution format? Most cinema reels in the 1980 were closer to 480p.
- how many users will actually be able to tell the difference between 1080p and 4k, per se or even on a large 50/50 split screen? AFAIK, from a minor distance, it's already past the average resolution of the human eye.

More importantly, yes - initial color TV broadcasting was a signal that piggybacked on the legacy monochrome one, backwards compatible.
Because, many pepole would not get a new TV set to watch.
That spirit has passed.
If anything, there will be a new BS DVB standard every few years - so that people will buy a new TV set or settop box.

And that is the real "planned obsolecence" of IT and entertainment electronics.
The other, conventional kind of "planned physical failure" after "warranty time plus ten minutes"...
- I'd say rather tough to realize in stuff without moving parts. So, dedicated, highly specialized engineers since the 1970 have made great strides in ensuring that a mid-range IC car engine will produce some kind of "total write off" after 150k to 200k km.
But a semiconductor? Nope.

First-hand account from a dude who designs molds for plastic case parts, during a seminar: That idea of "chrome plating on plastic" for mobile devices, that's popular for a reason. It will always chip off after a certain time. And it will look crappy AF.

What kills off devices is neither age nor mileage, it's the user's compulsive consumption and FOMA.

BTW., the light bulb story is probably a rather bad example for planned obsolecence.
Yes, there will have been some fishy things in the past and varying quality.
But, most claims out there are folk lore and conspiracy tales.
Any incandescant light is a compromise between longevity and energy efficiency - subject to the rules of thermodynamics and black body radiation.
Want them to last forever? Put two of them in line. They will hardly ever burn out but they also will only deliver about half of the usable light together as one of them alone at normal voltage.
Name brand lightbulbs have for many years cleary stated data which could be confirmed independently: Certain number of watt, lumen and hours, 1000 for conventional, 2000 for halogen.
There would have been quite the market for longer lasting ones because in many commercial places, the effort of changing one far exceeded the sales prices.

Meanwhile, if I'm not mistaken, there were actually printers which had a preset page limit in their firmware, without the CEO ending up blindfolded against a wall...

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-27, 16:40:

- how much of today's real world content was actually produced anywhere near 4k quality - never mind the distribution format? Most cinema reels in the 1980 were closer to 480p.

TV shows? Sure. Movies made for cinema? Unlikely.

Here's an article which describes the remastering process for motion pictures that were shot on 35mm film and such.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-03-27, 16:49:

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-27, 16:40:

- how much of today's real world content was actually produced anywhere near 4k quality - never mind the distribution format? Most cinema reels in the 1980 were closer to 480p.

TV shows? Sure. Movies made for cinema? Unlikely.

Here's an article which describes the remastering process for motion pictures that were shot on 35mm film and such.

Exactly - some of the source material was actually quite decent, allowing modern remastering for high def media.
But on the other hand - what cinema audiences would actually put up with...
It depended a bit on where you were living. Film copies were expensive, so most of them went on tour, e.g. from Hollywood to the colonies in Europe, on to the third world. Grinding them down from pristine to, well, grindhouse level 😉

Not all 35 mm footage was created equal and it's hard to translate physical grain into pixels.
No matter the budget, it wasn't uncommen at all to do SFX shots, when there were physical constraints like an aircraft cockpit, in 16 mm. That passes as 1080p on a really good day.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-27, 17:02:

Exactly - some of the source material was actually quite decent, allowing modern remastering for high def media.

It is possible stack multiple sources to create high resolution transfers that are superior to any individual print, even if the individual prints aren't great.

Here's a video about a private restoration of Star Wars using this approach. Unfortunately this will probably never see the light of day. But it does show what is technically possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3W_O-tp0_g

My daily grinder is 6 years old. Before that, it was 4 years, and before that over a decade. Money is the only reason I don't upgrade more. I'd upgrade today if I could afford it, but until I can afford a new high end system, my i7 6700K is good enough. Only reason to upgrade is for official Windows 11 support, and because I'm a hardware junkie (150+ motherboards, 500+ graphics cards, etc - the reason I can't afford a high end Ryzen system).

I just built my wife a new PC based on the x58 platform. I got a good deal on a Asus sabertooth x58 and a Xeon x5675 on eBay. I picked up a 120mm aio and 3 4gig sticks of 1600mhz ripjaws DDR3 and a 512gig SSD from Newegg. It's a serious power house and we have less than 300 invested in it. The only game she plays is Guild Wars 2 so that system and a 1050ti is perfect for her. For the tasks she does that system is over kill but she loves it and that's all that matters.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-26, 12:54:

Roughly 87.5 % of all human behaviour and communication can be attributed to general grumpyness and insufficient coping with one […]
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Grem Five wrote on 2022-03-26, 00:03:

When I 1st read this thread I thought OMG I got a ton to write a post about but I was at work and wasnt going to try to do that on my cell and then when I got home and grabbed a beer I just decided:

luckybob wrote on 2022-03-25, 07:57:

https://www.vogons.org/thumbs/17073_b9d65e7d72e05b1cb7bdb133df49a3ca/297.jpg […]
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(If this was any other forum this thread would be filled with "OK Boomer" comments)

Roughly 87.5 % of all human behaviour and communication can be attributed to general grumpyness and insufficient coping with ones mortality and the overall contigent nature of existence, yes.
But in case there still is an actual problem at hand, that's just one of roughly 87.5 % of lazy, one size fits all copouts people prefer to dealing with that problem.

Thank you for the pithy observation: Yes, there would be a lot of "OK boomer" going on in the average place populated by average brainwashed cosumer drones. Definitely.
It just wouldn't make any sense.
Taking our current quasi-stalinist structures of hardware and software production for granted and TINA is actually very much a boomer problem. As in, e.g. "we need computers in schools and what else is there but Apple or Microsoft and sending your tax money to assholes abroad to hard wire our kids for a lifetime of brand dependency and self-imposed nonage"?

I was on line by 1997 and had a smart phone and tablet PC by 2004 and would still consider myself a tech enthusiast - it's just no fun any more, given the recent state of affairs.
Maybe that's just my age, hard to tell.
I'm only barely still gen X but by mindset, yep - no kids, no responsibilty, no severe existential constraints ahead - I'm probably running out of f*cks to give at an alarming pace 😁

So, I probably would not care at all whether anyone spends his surplus money on a criminally inefficient IT solution or a criminally ineffcient transport solution on his way to the booze monger.

It's merely the recent adverse side effect of our collective clutter habit that I don't quite manage to ignore yet - despite sufficient beer supply.

Like, people getting so fucking scared about their petty little comfort zones that they start voting actual fascists into my parliament.
Or mainstream politics still feeling the need to subsidize concentration camps in China and Russian wars.
OK, the first few hundred of those first few hundred thousand deaths due to climate change per year occuring in my own contry does not really help, either.

So, ageims is fun but, maybe does not explain away just everything, huh?

No it does not. For that, we need look to our friend the heterogenous zygote, or whatever it's called. You know, that thing which means we are all different, thus are ever in disagreement.

Does my cousin's veganism (vs my Not) outweigh his extra $50k of luxury consumer spending + his thousands of extra Km leisure driving/flying, his yearly top end phone and Apple devices etc, in the great scheme of Who's the most responsible planetary barnacle?

What gets me is Consumers, Consuming, and somehow not understanding that all this strangely-coincident Doom News we're all increasingly-smothered with over the past few decades is the direct sum of all that you (the ubiquitous readers) are doing. While the newsreels about "some other evil" constantly play on, to fill the minds with contentment. As the termites (us) munch ever onward, oblivious to the self destruction.

And that imo is what's truly underlying this thread, the OP. A wish for conservation. A cry to all those proud and perennial go-getters, to say, please slow down a bit, you're using everything up too fast. Not that such a message is ever fated to reach the intended ears. They're mostly, and understandably, locked up in their own gameshow of life. And so, we preach among ourselves. Like you, I don't have a stake in this personally. It's unlikely to be my kids that are going to have to live with whatever our generations leave behind.

Conservation only works when the Corporations making the products also fall into line and quit with planned obsolescence, if products didn't fail as often as they do perhaps consumers wouldn't be buying so many things. A good example is you average car, used to be they would last hundreds of thousands of kilometres with nothing more than basic maintenance. New cars from say the last 10-15 years .. your lucky to get 125 thousand Kilometres from them before the drive chain fails in some manner (Usually the timing) and even fewer make it to 250 thousand before they need a major overhaul of the engine or gearbox. And you cant just replace the broken part either as more often then not with the new cars you have to replace entire parts of the engine or gearbox or the engine in entirety due to the main failure causing further damage.

You cant blame consumers for consuming when the corporations make sure you need to keep doing that on a regular cycle.

I honestly do try to use what I have to its fullest before throwing it away and in someway my retro obsession is part of that, I cant bear to see perfectly working or repairable hardware end up in landfill.

chrismeyer6 wrote on 2022-03-27, 20:43:

I just built my wife a new PC based on the x58 platform. I got a good deal on a Asus sabertooth x58 and a Xeon x5675 on eBay. I picked up a 120mm aio and 3 4gig sticks of 1600mhz ripjaws DDR3 and a 512gig SSD from Newegg. It's a serious power house and we have less than 300 invested in it. The only game she plays is Guild Wars 2 so that system and a 1050ti is perfect for her. For the tasks she does that system is over kill but she loves it and that's all that matters.

That's honestly a sweet rig, perfect for what its being purposed for too ! (I love cheap eBay Xeons, got a bunch for my 775 machines including a X5470 which is quite an amazing CPU)
And I think SSDs really are one of the best things to come along, they grant extra life to older hardware that would be too slow with spinning rust.

I dont yet own a X58 setup .. I guess ill add it to my wish list for a future build . .always wanted a 980X build !

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-27, 21:27:

Conservation only works when the Corporations making the products also fall into line and quit with planned obsolescence, if products didn't fail as often as they do perhaps consumers wouldn't be buying so many things. A good example is you average car, used to be they would last hundreds of thousands of kilometres with nothing more than basic maintenance. New cars from say the last 10-15 years .. your lucky to get 125 thousand Kilometres from them before the drive chain fails in some manner (Usually the timing) and even fewer make it to 250 thousand before they need a major overhaul of the engine or gearbox. And you cant just replace the broken part either as more often then not with the new cars you have to replace entire parts of the engine or gearbox or the engine in entirety due to the main failure causing further damage.

You cant blame consumers for consuming when the corporations make sure you need to keep doing that on a regular cycle.

I honestly do try to use what I have to its fullest before throwing it away and in someway my retro obsession is part of that, I cant bear to see perfectly working or repairable hardware end up in landfill.

The old chicken and egg situation. Corps won't stop making it, because consumers are buying it; and consumers won't stop buying it, because it's the majority of the corps' offerings. Quite the pickle we got ourselves into. Add a doubling population into the mix, and we've got Fun City.

Thank you! It really is a great system. The Xeon was only 14 bucks. Back in August my EVGA 680i based system had some caps start leaking. So I had a HP Proliant ML350 G6 server and I bough two Xeon x5675 CPUs and 48gigs worth of ram to have 24 gigs of RAM in triple channel per cpu. I have a EVGA 3050 in there now and a nvme drive on a pci-e adapter for my games. These "old" systems are kicking butt and we don't have much money sunk into them. For my wife's system I reused the 850watt seasonic PSU from my old computer and I had a NIB CM 690 1st Gen case so I was able to reuse parts I had and save even more money.

debs3759 wrote on 2022-03-27, 18:54:

My daily grinder is 6 years old. Before that, it was 4 years, and before that over a decade. Money is the only reason I don't upgrade more. I'd upgrade today if I could afford it, but until I can afford a new high end system, my i7 6700K is good enough. Only reason to upgrade is for official Windows 11 support, and because I'm a hardware junkie (150+ motherboards, 500+ graphics cards, etc - the reason I can't afford a high end Ryzen system).

Going off topic here but wanted to throw a curio here: you can upgrade from 6700k to coffee lake on the same motherboard (depending on vrm's quality even up to 9900k). If your mobo supports tpm2 or intel ptt and you only care about Windows 11 support then you can prolong this system's life. Intel wasn't exactly honest about socket compatibility. And modding is definitely more exciting than buying, right? 😀
All that's needed is a modded bios and either a small modification to mobo's socket or masking+connecting a few pins on the cpu (remember Xeon socket 771 to 775 mods? similar stuff but without rotation, arguably even easier).
Win-raid forums have all the info you need (coffee time 0.99 makes it possible to mod all motherboards now, even msi ones).

I'm at a point where I don't care so much about the latest and greatest hardware, or at least I tell myself that. My daily driver is bogged down by multiple electron apps and usual windows bloat, but I can live with the specs I have. but if I could upgrade to even a coffee lake or later i3 with 4c/8t with 16gb of RAM I honestly would (current daily driver has a haswell i5 and 8gb of ram). I don't care about having a 16c alderlake or thread ripper. just at least enough cpu threads and ram to have some breathing room. I'm happy with my 1060 6gb card and I don't think any games will come out that would make me want to upgrade (even assuming money wasn't an issue).

chiveicrook wrote on 2022-03-28, 19:00:

Going off topic here but wanted to throw a curio here: you can upgrade from 6700k to coffee lake on the same motherboard (depend […]
Show full quote

debs3759 wrote on 2022-03-27, 18:54:

My daily grinder is 6 years old. Before that, it was 4 years, and before that over a decade. Money is the only reason I don't upgrade more. I'd upgrade today if I could afford it, but until I can afford a new high end system, my i7 6700K is good enough. Only reason to upgrade is for official Windows 11 support, and because I'm a hardware junkie (150+ motherboards, 500+ graphics cards, etc - the reason I can't afford a high end Ryzen system).

Going off topic here but wanted to throw a curio here: you can upgrade from 6700k to coffee lake on the same motherboard (depending on vrm's quality even up to 9900k). If your mobo supports tpm2 or intel ptt and you only care about Windows 11 support then you can prolong this system's life. Intel wasn't exactly honest about socket compatibility. And modding is definitely more exciting than buying, right? 😀
All that's needed is a modded bios and either a small modification to mobo's socket or masking+connecting a few pins on the cpu (remember Xeon socket 771 to 775 mods? similar stuff but without rotation, arguably even easier).
Win-raid forums have all the info you need (coffee time 0.99 makes it possible to mod all motherboards now, even msi ones).

Win11 can be installed without TPM too if you want to go that route, its not officially supported but Windows still gets updates and such so there isn't really a downside other than all the new TPM security features being turned off.

I have a TPM 2 module on my Maximus VIII Hero, just not prepared to mod the socket for a Coffee Lake CPU. Might set up a CL i3 on a cheap Z370 board just for the Win 11 experience, but my next big high end upgrade is more likely to be Ryzen.

I think it's pretty insane that my Ryzen 1800X isn't supported. Completely arbitrary.

Guys, plz explain why my old Core 2 Duo / 3 GB RAM PC shouldn't be consider as modern rig? I does everything fine except for post-2013 gaming. Hell, you can even install Win11 on it!

Is there a SINGLE aspect of it that isn't MODERN?

songo wrote on 2022-03-29, 04:07:

Guys, plz explain why my old Core 2 Duo / 3 GB RAM PC shouldn't be consider as modern rig? I does everything fine except for post-2013 gaming. Hell, you can even install Win11 on it!

Is there a SINGLE aspect of it that isn't MODERN?

Aside from the fact that it would be nearly 17 years old and its got the IPC of a baked potato I guess there is nothing about it that would make you consider it modern because its not.

I still have a classic car that can do all the things a modern car can .. but I dont go calling it a modern car because tis not a modern car, I actually dont consider it classic but its certainly old enough to fit into that category.

Core 2 still feels plenty fast to me.