rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-23, 20:25:

Grzyb wrote on 2022-04-23, 10:19:

I understand that WASD (or thereabouts) is necessary when two players are using a single keyboard, but it's not a thing in modern era, is it?

was it ever a thing without standardized n-key rollover? I remember some elaborate setups centered around modifier keys to avoid ghosting problems.

Sure, there was plenty of multiplayer games before LAN gaming.
I used to play Dyna Blaster and Megablast a lot this way - no problems with two players, and with more it was too crowded to notice keyboard limitations 🤣
Overall, I never saw the need for that "n-key rollover" thing - but it should be noted that I don't care about modern games...

Grzyb wrote on 2022-04-23, 10:19:

BTW, I'm wondering what's the logic behind WASD?

It's a perfect logic if you're right handed. Right hand = mouse, left hand is on the left side of the keyboard.

Grzyb wrote on 2022-04-23, 21:35:

I used to play Dyna Blaster and Megablast a lot this way - no problems with two players, and with more it was too crowded to notice keyboard limitations 🤣
Overall, I never saw the need for that "n-key rollover" thing - but it should be noted that I don't care about modern games...

a TON of problems if players arent toddlers and actually can follow the chain of causality - Im pressing keys and nothing happens = you are cheating = someone ends up with a black eye 😉
Most keyboards fall at some 3 simultaneously pressed key combinations Re: Keyboards that pass the n-key or ghosting test https://web.archive.org/web/20140608171426/ht … gexplained.mspx
I remember weird keyboard setups to allow for split screen in some dos soccer game
edit: I just remembered Death Rally was a nightmare to set up

As has been said, we old-timers used the arrow keys to play those old games. I completed the first episode of Doom using keyboard only. It was with Quake that I started to use a mouse.

I've always used a strange control system which uses MOUSE1/MOUSE2 to strafe left/right. This is nice because you never run out of desk space when circle-strafing an opponent. Spacebar fires. (Alas, my venerable keyboard now has a broken space bar because of this. I think I jinxed it by mentioning it here.)

This control scheme has always caused problems in the Battlefield games, which forget the strafe key assignments on exit, requiring me to re-set them each time I run the game. This problem is still present in Battlefront 2 [2017].

I play all the early DOS FPS games keyboard-only, with arrows / numpad (right hand) and Ctrl/Alt/Space/Shift/Tab/etc (left hand).

rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-23, 20:25:

Put your left hand on the keyboard, now curl up fingers - do they to directly down, or maybe at ~20 degrees angle? All of a sudden it starts to make sense.

Yes but the angle is perfect for the right hand and not the left, as W is a bit to the left of S.
I do get why WASD happened, I just don't believe it happened because it's so good. More like "best option if right hand gets the mouse"

konc wrote on 2022-04-24, 09:55:

rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-23, 20:25:

Put your left hand on the keyboard, now curl up fingers - do they to directly down, or maybe at ~20 degrees angle? All of a sudden it starts to make sense.

Yes but the angle is perfect for the right hand and not the left, as W is a bit to the left of S.

That's a great point and absolutely correct. Thanks for ruining WASD for me forever. 🤣

Actually, since we're talking about WASD, I want to ask - why don't more people use ESDF? Those are right on the home keys for the left hand, and they're what I use. But it seems I'm alone in this..?

(But yes, we were all very used to the cursor keys and I can still revert to "tank controls" without any problems.)

I used to play Doom, Heretic, Duke3D etc. with keyboard only, as was the norm at the time. My earliest use of the mouse for looking around probably started with either Quake 1 or Quake 2. But I was still using the arrow keys to navigate at that time.

Not sure when exactly I made the switch to WASD, possibly with UT99. It certainly became the norm during the early 2000s when even third-person RPGs like Neverwinter Nights and Star Wars: KOTOR started using that layout for movement.

As many people here, I can now switch between the arrow keys and WASD at will, no issues at all. However, if a game lets me configure the keys manually (even Doom 1 does) I will go for the WASD + mouse option.

astonsmith wrote on 2022-04-24, 10:18:

Actually, since we're talking about WASD, I want to ask - why don't more people use ESDF? Those are right on the home keys for the left hand, and they're what I use. But it seems I'm alone in this..?

I supposed it is because WASD is closer to Ctrl/Alt/Shift/Tab and people are used to those for auxiliary functions.

ESDF has been used for action keys in some platform games, most notably Lost Vikings and Blackthorne. I have grown comfortable with it, and later used the same control scheme for Rayman Origins and Rayman Legends.

rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-23, 20:25:

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-04-23, 00:35:

I never even used wasd in any game, and I lived.

I would hardly call that living! 😀
Anecdote: Gambleriada in 1997, huge gaming event in Poland organized by one of the most popular monthly gaming magazines, had a Quake tourney. https://riad.pk.edu.pl/~pmj/quake/gambleriada97_zdjecia.html Third place was taken by Jacek Rzymelka (winner of Tekkena 2 tournament), the only keyboard player participating 😮. Coincidentally I think that very Gambleriada was where I learned about WASD and mouse control 😀

Wow, there were successful keyboard-only Quake players? Interesting.
Was already an old game then, but one of us had to make do with a 486-66, so we played DOOM in the quake era in a LAN. Our hardcore gamer friend played it with keys only and deathmatch mostly meant "try to avoid him and frag the others" but I played with a mouse and was the only one who made a close second. The DOOM controls were actually very versatile.

Think I made a half decent CS player around the late betas to 1.5, despite never really mastering skills like strafe-shoot-strafe-shoot (it looks fucking stupid, my brain just refused) and pretty shitty aiming on cheap mice.
But, as keys, I used the block [del] - [end] - [page down] for movement, insead of a,s,d and my thumb for weapons on the numkeys.
Thing is a) movement fingers should always remain on the keys and b) the thumb is by far the most versatile digit and utterly wasted on the space bar.
People on LANs kept mocking me and I kept fucking them up, that division of labor worked quite well. 😜

konc wrote on 2022-04-24, 09:55:

Yes but the angle is perfect for the right hand

you mean left hand (on the keyboard)

konc wrote on 2022-04-24, 09:55:

I do get why WASD happened, I just don't believe it happened because it's so good. More like "best option if right hand gets the mouse"

happy little accidents 😀

astonsmith wrote on 2022-04-24, 10:18:

Actually, since we're talking about WASD, I want to ask - why don't more people use ESDF? Those are right on the home keys for the left hand, and they're what I use

can you comfortably reach Tab? Tilde? even Z seems awkward

As long as mouse look wasn't a thing yet, WASD didn't make sense. 2.5D games like DN3D did support the mouse, but for me it felt clunky and you were better off with the keys and automatic vertical aiming. It was only with real 3d games like Quake 1 that mouse look felt natural, although it was disabled by default! At first I just moved the whole keyboard a bunch to the left to have a more natural position while using the arrow keys. Must have been a friend that told me about WASD I guess, somewhere around the days of Half-Life. But once I saw the light I never looked back 😉

No 8 bit micro gamers who liked q z and i p or top row arrow keys 5678 ? 🤣

Yknow chat. I'll let you in ona secret: When i was a kid, i use to play Team Fortress 2 at 640x480 windowed on my mom's shitty work PC. Had like a early AMD APU or something inside it. Arrow keys to move/strafe, ctrl to crouch, shift to jump, mouse in my right hand. I did that for YEARS and had a blast. Was pretty good online with it too.

Yet once i discovered WASD i couldn't go back, and now I'm the one creating threads like this complaining about the lack of WASD in games made eons before WASD.

go figure

i think Half life was the big game that used WASD default.
pretty much most of the games in the 90s used the arrow keys. Even Quake 2 used the arrow keys

kixs wrote on 2022-04-23, 22:01:

Grzyb wrote on 2022-04-23, 10:19:

BTW, I'm wondering what's the logic behind WASD?

It's a perfect logic if you're right handed. Right hand = mouse, left hand is on the left side of the keyboard.

this, it's just way more ergonomic.

I used the arrow kills up until and still with half-life but after that I also switched to WASD, it's just a more natural spot of the hand to be on the keyboard, and I don't wanna move my keyboard around all the time... the extra access to more key is just a bonus.

having recently played through Wolfenstein 3D I just set it to WASD and put strafe on the second mouse button iirc and then just got used to just use mouselook for left/right and not move it forward and back cause there's no way turn that off seperately ^^
all in all I got used to it quickly and it worked pretty well.

Surprised that nobody brought A,Z,LALT,LSHIFT or S, X, SPACE, LSHIFT so far.

pshipkov wrote on 2022-04-25, 03:09:

Surprised that nobody brought A,Z,LALT,LSHIFT or S, X, SPACE, LSHIFT so far.

On many crappy keyboards, you won't even succeed in pressing the spacebar when you try to hit it so far off-center.

rasz_pl wrote on 2022-04-24, 20:07:

konc wrote on 2022-04-24, 09:55:

Yes but the angle is perfect for the right hand

you mean left hand (on the keyboard)

No I wrote this correctly, when you have your right hand on the keyboard the middle finger is slightly angled to the left. Exactly what W is compared to S. Anyway, just chattering on the subject