A USB 3.0 hub.

Yes there are some models that have a switch for XT/AT.

I like the Model M, of course, but it is AT-only. There might be active adapters though.

Ultimate retro keyboard for me would be a Model M with full NKRO for gaming.

I don't think those exist, but if it did. That would be it.

The white version of A4Tech's KBS-720 for XP, and a white Delux keyboard that I forgot its model number, which has the old Windows logo.

dr_st wrote on 2022-04-25, 21:10:

A USB 3.0 hub.

What use would a keyboard with a USB 3.0.hub be for a retro system?

cyclone3d wrote on 2022-04-25, 21:06:

In the search for a keyboard that would be useable for both XT and AT systems, I have always wanted something with Cherry MX switches.

They certainly exist - but why? why MX switches?

Cherry switches stand out purely for the fact they have become the de-facto keycap standard. They are not superior in pretty much any other metric - for typing almost all buckling springs beat them, and Alps aficionados consider their choice vastly superior. For gaming, you want NKRO, which means capacitive technology or huge numbers of diodes as a kludge. I like Model F, but even BTC foam & foil is superior to most MX boards in that respect.

The search has been futile until today when I discovered that there are a few models out there that have what I have been looking for.

Certainly. Most Cherry G80-1000 boards have the XT/AT switch you want (generally with MX Black switches)

I will post more info once I acquire one.

What features would a keyboard need to have in order for you to deem it as the ultimate retro keyboard?

I have a LOT of keyboards, both retro and modern, and I still haven't settled on the perfect one yet.

Personally I like ISO layout, I tolerate ANSI and I can't stand big-ass enter combined with narrow backspace (big-ass with normal width backspace is OK-ish). That sort of limits options. For typing I still can't beat my 1991 ISO model M, but that's mainly because I learned to type on one in the late 1980s/early 1990s. For gaming though the 2KRO is awful. Also, for work (conf calls), the noise level of buckling springs (or indeed clicky Alps/MX) is too high. I like my 1986 model F122 Battleship, but it's so huge and loud it's not practical. I have a BTC foam and foil, but it's almost as bad as a Cherry MY in terms of key feel. I have a pile of Alps tactile boards (SGI & Dell bigfoot, Apple Extended etc), but I find the switches much too scratchy, and all ANSI. Even a NOS Mathias board with their white switches is too scratchy for my tastes (and is the single loudest board I ever had, even the F122 is quieter). Same goes for a NOS Acer switch board, albeit quiet (Alps black clone, more or less). No, still need to find the ideal retro board. And indeed modern one - although I have a Ducky chassis I intend to solder Outemu Silent Forest switches onto. Am optimistic that will be sort of OK, but still ANSI and not even remotely vintage.

And no, using vintage keycaps (which I have, lots of nice dye sub Cherry stuff) isn't an option due to different space bar and modifier key sizes :'(

But if I had to list pure reqs:
- 102-key ISO layout (105-key with Windows keys acceptable)
- totally non-scratchy switches (which disqualifies any Alps version I've yet to see)
- quiet but tactile
- actuation force around 64g
- somewhere between Cherry and SA profile, definitely no higher than SA.
- keycaps heavy and preferably sculpted; preferably PBT, but not totally ruling out ABS (what is good enough for Dolch is good enough for me)
- either dye sublimated, laser etched or double-shot, no printed pads

Don't give a flying flatulence about what is printed on the keys, I type blind and actively prefer keyboards others can't figure out how to use 😉
(only use US layout though, my SO does things like left-handed Dvorak, but she's no keyboard fan and actively likes the rubber dome I gave her...)

Well, you could get, like, erm, a Cherry, with MX switches?
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=26951
But actually, I'm not too impressed by it. Rather boring. (Less stupid me would have sold it by now and pissed away the return. Along with the other keys.)
Definitely stay clear of Cherry G81, with or without XT switch.

TBH, I'm very new to the whole mechanical keyboard craze, mostly for financial reasons. What really impressed me was model with ALPS switches I found recently:
Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today

Really nice tactile feel to it. And it has an XT switch, ostensibly, if you manage to pry open the silly lid without a crowbar.

Apparently, this bloke is the go to guru about keyboards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC8tPptjljM

The ultimate retro keyboard in my opinion would be the Northgate Omnikey Ultra series.

You get ALPS white switches, and dip switch settings so you can you the keyboard with XT, AT, Tandy 1000, Amiga, and AT&T 6300 series computers.

I used one for a couple decades until I started having issues going from it to IBM Model M's on different KVMs because of the slightly different layout. Eventually I ditched the M in my room and went with a Red Dragon brown switch keyboard because I wanted USB interface and use the Northgate with an Amiga 2000 (still use IBM Model M's in the lab).

I haven't run across a Cherry branded keyboard with the XT-AT switch.

I probably should have specified which Cherry MX switches I like.

Before the speed switches (silver) were released, my favorite was the reds.

I don't care for the blacks or browns.

I've been using keyboards with Cherry MX switches for the past 8+ years. Haven't found any other switches that I like near as much.

The keyboard I have on the way should have blue switches. I am not completely sure if it has the XT-AT switch as it is a slightly newer model than the model that I know has the XT-AT switch.

If/when I do get one that has the XT-AT switch, I will almost for sure convert it to silver switches.

As for the IBM Model M, it is just a clicky rubber-dome keyboard. I have one that I pulled out of a dumpster 25+ years ago. While it is nice, it is not so good when you want to have a somewhat quiet keyboard and I can't type near as fast on a Model M as I can on a good Cherry MX based keyboard.

I do have a keyboard with ALPS switches. It was NIB when I got it and had to buy a keycap set for it because it was french if I remember correctly. I'm just kinda afraid to use it because the ALPS switches reportedly have issues if they get dust in them.

Once upon a time, I had the perfect XT-AT keyboard.... but then like a moron I lost track of it.... last saw it 3 moves ago, not sure if it lurks in a forgotten box or whether it's "gone"... not even sure what it was, maybe had a Unicomp brand name on it, seemed mechanical, but might have been Model-M ish... slightly flatter, squarer and more compact than an M but not a whole lot. It did have a problem though, it only liked lower speed AT keyboarrd clocks, wasn't happy over about 8Mhz I think it was, so some motherboards it wouldn't work with. Probably why it fell by the wayside actually.

Edit: Nope, could not have been a Unicomp because it was older than Unicomp, mid-late 80s methinks.

cyclone3d wrote on 2022-04-26, 00:10:

As for the IBM Model M, it is just a clicky rubber-dome keyboard. I have one that I pulled out of a dumpster 25+ years ago. While it is nice, it is not so good when you want to have a somewhat quiet keyboard and I can't type near as fast on a Model M as I can on a good Cherry MX based keyboard.

I do have a keyboard with ALPS switches. It was NIB when I got it and had to buy a keycap set for it because it was french if I remember correctly. I'm just kinda afraid to use it because the ALPS switches reportedly have issues if they get dust in them.

There are late model Unicomp rubber dome keyboards that look like the old style Model M's which are not rubber dome.

The Northgate ALPS models I have never had dust issues. Worst thing that happened to it was I broke a key when I had it on the ground working on something and kicked it. Was an easy fix soldering in another switch.

NMB “space invader” switch keyboards are pretty neat because they’re NKRO and come in both rubber dome and clicky models. I have one of the former and really like it. It’s hefty but doesn’t have a ridiculously large footprint on my desk and is pre 95, so no Windows keys, but I don’t miss them.

cyclone3d wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:31:

What use would a keyboard with a USB 3.0.hub be for a retro system?

That was a joke. 😀

In seriousness, probably something like this:

FioGermi wrote on 2022-04-25, 21:47:

Model M with full NKRO for gaming.

Doesn't have to be Model M, but a nice mechanical feel + NKRO is all one needs. As far as interfaces (XT/AT/PS/2) it depends on how far "retro" one wants to go.

If you want maximum retro, ASCII keyboard compliant, then before that 5 bit current loop TTY.

Well, apparently there are AT to XT adapters available for $30 shipped. Probably going to get one and then I can use my active USB to PS/2 adapter along side it and be able to any keyboard that doesn't have a microcontroller built in with everything from XT to USB.

I had one for a long time but I rode that "pony" till it literally died - Northgate OmniKey 102! That is my favorite Xt/AT keyboard of all time. Alps keyswitches, function keys down the side (all 12), it had a normal arrow-key layout unlike some versions of the Ultra, and it was clicky, but not annoyingly so. I had the gold label version, really which I'd fought harder to fix it, but the spacebar part of the PCB was start to crack and traces were beginning to lift because I'd resoldered it and replaced 3-4 keyswitches on it. The explanation why? I used that keyboard on my main system at the time, a 386 DX/20 GEM computer Products AT styled like a Compaq Deskpro 286 that had a Pentium III under the hood, and I was using that thing HARD at the time, sometimes 10+ hours a day.

I have 3 that I really like using..
- IBM Model F AT
- Siig Suntouch (XT + AT with a switch, Alps switches)
- Siig Minitouch (kind of like a 65% keyboard with AT connector, Alps switches)

For me, the Microsoft Natural Elite keyboard but with enhanced compatibility with both modern and legacy systems would be the keyboard of choice.
Some may dislike unusual arrow keys layout but I like it more than the traditional one - with my relatively small hands I could keep four fingers on keys, I did not waste time switching middle finger from forwards to backwards 😀
I could manage sustained typing speed of over 100 words per minute with natural elite, I've never managed to go over 100 on other keyboards. I loved it for gaming as well.

If it only had universal usb/ps2/at/xt connectivity... 😀