VOGONS


Windows 95 ,98 and ME systems...

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First post, by starbond6

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Might just get an open ended answer on this, but I've held on to all the computers that were in my family since the early days, and I'm wondering if necessary to keep all three if there's a chance for overlap in functionality, though you all might say 'keep them all!' 🤣

PC 1 is a 1994 Pentium 100 machine, with a 430LX or NX chipset made for Windows 95, but could run pure DOS, and win 3.1.. maybe Win 98? It has 32MB of dram (max 128), on a Premier PCI I mobo, plenty of ISA and PCI slots. No USB. Has ISA sounblaster and a PCI S3 2mb (up to 4mb) gpu. (Dell XPS P100C)
PC2 is a 1998 Pentium II 333mhz machine with a 440EX chipset, made for Windows 98, has 64MB ram(max 256), onboard XG/soundblaster, 2USB, one ISA and 2 PCI. onboard ATI Rage Pro 2mb graphics. on MU440EX motherboard. Could run pure dos, but seems like would be a waste of potential. (Packard Bell 607G)
PC 3 is a 2001 Pentum III 1GHZ (edit: this is the correct speed sorry) machine with an 810E chipset, made for Windows ME, has 256mb ram, lackluster ESS onboard audio with subpar dos support, all PCI, no AGP. Don't think it could handle XP. Dispite the subpar onboard graphics it could run those early 2000s 3D games a little better than the 98 machine. (except for ones that need shader support) (Compaq Presario 5107US)

I'm doing my best to recall all the pertinent information, but maybe the 95 and 98 machine ovelap, so I would only need to keep one? I'd love to keep them all but they just sit in the garage collecting dust until i bring them out once a year to see if they still work. Maybe a graphics card update on the 98 machine to give it that little boost in gaming? Or perhaps the 333mhz PII is too slow. AFAIK that's the higest speed allowed on that motherboard.

Last edited by starbond6 on 2022-05-03, 21:51. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 1 of 24, by PcBytes

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I would do it this way, based on what you described:

PC1: mainly DOS gaming? You'd be better off upgrading it to at least 430VX or HX mobo and either a classic 133 chip, or a MMX 200 with the new mobo.

The rest can stay, add some more RAM (at least 64MB as a total, IIRC that's the max cacheable RAM amount for 430VX, HX goes up to 512MB though I forgot if that's with or without a COAST module.) and I'd throw in Win95 OSR2.5 + XUSBSUPP for easy file transfer over a mass storage (like external HDD or USB pendrive - XUSBSUPP is basically the 95 equivalent of NUSB except no 2.0 speeds.)

PC2: looks fine, you could throw in a Voodoo 2 card to go along with the onboard Rage Pro, bump the RAM to 128MB.
Here's some more info on the YMF740 you have on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YMF7xx

PC3: I'll assume the 500MHz chip is a Katmai (despite 810E chipset and the fact that those 810 mobos usually were Slot 1 + Skt370 combos, I kinda doubt it's a socket 370 chip) so the best board for it would be something i440BX based, and this one depends greatly on what you plan to do with it, as your options with a 440BX board would be almost infinite. You would have a slight downgrade in that you'd have to separately install a AGP graphics card and a sound card and possibly other expansion cards (e.g USB 2.0 PCI card, LAN card, SCSI controller)

Pretty much this is what I'd upgrade to each. The last one has great potential and can be expanded in lots of ways if you're willing to invest in a mobo running the 440BX chipset instead of i810. There's also the i815 chipset but you're limited at 512MB of RAM with it - the only plus you get over 440BX is native 133FSB support (something the 440BX wasn't really intended to do but can achieve without too much issues) and Tualatin-based Pentium 3s.

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Reply 2 of 24, by RandomStranger

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If I had to choose not to keep one, it would probably be PC3 because of the poor upgrade potential. PC2 with a Voodoo1 or 2 and an ISA sound card can turn into a decent mid-to-late 90s PC and PC3 can't cover all that much more as is. If you are not emotionally attached and want a PC up to 2000-2001, I'd look for something that has AGP.

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Reply 3 of 24, by dionb

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Ooh, I like the MU440EX. Used a system on it with Celeron 333 in the office 2000-2001, until some IT manager decided to replace it with an i810-based system with Celeron 766. The 766 was actually slower due to UMA eating half the memory bandwidth, and Windows ME eating more of the 64MB RAM... then I quit and the next place I worked had Compaq i810 systems too 😦

That aside, what do you actually want/need to do with your computers other than not collect so much dust?

I like overspecced hardware for the software I like to run so my experience isn't what I really had back in the day, but what I would have wanted it to be 😉 My most-used DOS system runs on a P3-450 which is fast enough for almost any DOS game (and I have a 486SX-33 system for stuff that needs a slower CPU). With that in mind, and my nostalgia for the MU440EX, I'd personally use that for late DOS stuff. The ATi Rage isn't perfect for SVGA, but usually good enough, and the Yamaha XG is a great SBPro2-compatible option with no nasty MIDI bugs. If I needed more ISA sound options (eg. an SB16 or AWE, or GUS if I felt rich) there's always that slot for it.

Of course, in real life I was using a P60 running DOS 6.22 and Win3.1 until 1999, and actually it worked fine for all DOS games, so that P100 would also do the trick. Its S3 VGA is better suited for DOS than the ATi, it already has a Soundblaster and slots for whatever else you might want.

And then there's the i810 system. I emphasize the chipset, because that - not the CPU - is the biggest difference with the MU440EX. That will cripple performance to the point it's not going to be that much faster than the P2-333 with dedicated (old) VGA chip. Your faster performance was probably due to more RAM more than anything else. Now, I am biased against i810 as I had to work on it back when I was doing more than just play games on this kind of hardware. But if you had to ditch one, I'd drop this one. Go for a faster P3 system with proper chipset without UMA for Win98SE. I like my P3-1400S, but tbh a P3-600E or EB would be fine too with i440BX, i815 or even Via ApolloPro133a chipset and decent AGP card.

Reply 4 of 24, by chinny22

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A good way to "need" duplicate computers is to create a niche for them. Sound and Video are the main excuses, OS to a lesser extent, you could do something like....

P100, Dos/Win3.11, Soundblaster, If the S3 is a Virge that's perfect as allows you to mess around with S3D games.

P2 233, Win98, ESS ISA soundcard (for something different in dos) Aural Vortex 2 (for A3d) or Creative EAX card or keep the onboard XG with its nice midi. The onboard Rage allows ATI CIF gaming

P3 500, Win98, A3d or EAX card (whichever you didn't go with on the P2) You could add a Voodoo 1 or 2 to pair with onboard video or replace it outright with a Voodoo 3 PCI or a stronger PCI D3D card from Nvidia or ATI., catch is most 1/2 decent PCI cards are somewhat overpriced now for what your really getting.

I'd say neither the P2 and P3 are perfect. You could just get a BX motherboard and combine the 2 but where is the sentimental value in that? besides these builds will be a little different then most and for me sentimental value outweighs practicality every time.

Reply 5 of 24, by leileilol

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I'd classify that P3 500 as a 1999 machine, as:
- P3 launch marketing to the consumer was very much high
- 500mhz is the lowest number they'd hear of (there is 450mhz but that's relatively obscure in the OEM world)
- You probably have a Rage Pro onboard.
- WinMe's time was in the period of P3 867MHz+/P4 1.4ghz/Athlon Thunderbird.

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Reply 6 of 24, by AlexZ

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I would sell all of them and get a PIII with AGP (GeForce 4 or FX) to use for DOS and Windows 98. PIII should be at least 600Mhz as that allows one to play games up to 2000 (after turning down details a bit) or 800Mhz to play with max details - depending on local price.

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Reply 7 of 24, by Tetrium

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I kinda like PC1 🙂
Is your board this one by any chance? If so, it's fairly limited regarding what CPUs you can run in it but regardless I thinik this one would be a keeper for me.
Is PC1 in a mini AT tower case or in some pizza box? 😋

PC2 I also like 😀
Somewhat similar compared to PC1 in that the board will prevent you from doing any significant CPU upgrades and also similar in that I'd keep it.
I fondly remember my 440LX Celeron 400 system. I actually ran WinME on it 😋with 192MB RAM so in my book 256MB ram should be plenty for any Win9x OS.

PC3, I don't like the i810 chipset. The i815 chipset is basically better in every way.
Though, the same could be said about 440EX relative to 440LX and especially 440BX but at least these chipsets have ISA and most of the time also AGP.
There's a wide variety of i810 boards with varying compatibility (and compatibility issues).
Also i810 supposedly had some performance bugs which back in the day was an often heard criticism about this chipset. I don't remember exactly what its issues were but it was some kind of PCI bus or memory performance bugs which were impossible to circumvent.
It never was very popular except for people buying cheaper (OEM) systems. It's also not particularly liked by retro PC hobbyists basically because this chipset really has barely anything going for it. i810 was basically the budget variant of i820 and i815 chipsetted boards but both of these chipsets are much superior.

If I had to sell one of these 3 PCs, PC3 would probably be the one I'd sell. I'd rethink this decision only if this i810 board happens to be native Tualatin compatible.

Even though I like PC3 the least of your 3PCs, it's at least perhaps the fastest one (on paper).
One issue is that the lack of AGP seriously harms its upgradability, which is less of an issue with the 440EX chipsetted board as PCI graphics were barely a handicap from a performance perspective compared to contemporary AGP cards.

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Reply 8 of 24, by starbond6

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leileilol wrote on 2022-05-03, 17:49:

I'd classify that P3 500 as a 1999 machine

PcBytes wrote on 2022-05-03, 14:06:

PC3: I'll assume the 500MHz chip is a Katmai

I corrected the speed for PC3 to be 1GHZ, sorry I was going off memory here. (see image for the actual specs).

So what I'm really working with here is a Pentium 100mhz, a Celeron 333mhz, and a PIII 1ghz. I could very well sell off everything and use the money to build an idealized build. The only one I'm a little attached to is PC3 because of its stylings and the fact I still have the original install CDs and keyboard so in a sense, its a "authentic" system. But if I could use that money from selling it to get something better then its all good.

Some general comments about what I've been reading:
For PC1: The video is S3 964 chip PCI. A GXE64 PRO #9 Card, with 2MB onboard. If its worth it to hunt down extra chips to up it to 4, I can do that.

For PC2: From what Ive seen Voodoo would cost me big, is there a budget alternative? Could i swipe the GXE from the Win 95 machine. I would have to find some more 40-pin SOJ chips to get it up to 4MB. And I would not be running all 3 machines at once, so borrowing components back and forth wouldnt be the worst thing.

For PC3, seems like a love it or leave it situation, the lack of AGP is really hurting this one.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-05-03, 19:53:

I kinda like PC1 🙂

Bingo you got it :) Oddly enough all the specs say its only a 66mhz motherboard, yet this one has a pentium 100 in it haha. so some kind of Batman but tweaked. My PSU doesnt have a lead for the auxiliary 3.3V PCI connector though, so not sure how that affects the PCI cards. The tower is a decent size too, looks just like this: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u … 26pid%3DApi&f=1

I'd have to dig out the PC3 to see exactly what the cpu components are, as I corrected in my original post it is a 1GHZ processor not 500mhz as I errored definitely a socket not a slot type. The spec sticker on the side of the pc is attached.
As being a Compaq, its pretty low end OEM, and maybe its best to part with it after all.

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Reply 9 of 24, by dionb

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starbond6 wrote on 2022-05-03, 20:41:

[...]

Some general comments about what I've been reading:
For PC1: The video is S3 964 chip PCI. A GXE64 PRO #9 Card, with 2MB onboard. If its worth it to hunt down extra chips to up it to 4, I can do that.

Worth it for what exactly? The extra RAM doesn't win you any performance, just allows higher resolutions/colour depths in desktop mode. 2MB is enough for anything DOS-related. In Windows it gives you 800x600@24b (true colour), or 1024x768@16b (high colour). 4MB lets you do 1024x768@24b. No game you could run on a P100 could make sensible use of that (well, maybe Civ II...), but makes Excel 97 spreadsheets a lot more readable.

For PC2: From what Ive seen Voodoo would cost me big, is there a budget alternative? Could i swipe the GXE from the Win 95 machine. I would have to find some more 40-pin SOJ chips to get it up to 4MB. And I would not be running all 3 machines at once, so borrowing components back and forth wouldnt be the worst thing.

The onboard ATi chip is faster than the old S3 964. Only advantage for the S3 is marginally better DOS SVGA compatibility. Voodoo in any shape of form is pricey, yes.

For PC3, seems like a love it or leave it situation, the lack of AGP is really hurting this one.

No, the i810E chipset memory controller is really hurting. The MU440EX also doesn't have an AGP slot, but the onboard ATi Rage is connected by AGP and more importantly, it has its own RAM, so the CPU has access to the full memory bandwidth of 533MB/s. By contrast, the i810E UMA shares memory bandwidth between CPU and IGP, and to make matters worse, the memory controller only runs at 100MHz, even though the CPU runs at 133MHz FSB, so it's doubly castrated, and also suffers asynch latencies. That means that where your P3 CPU is expecting 1066MB/s memory bandwidth, the system only has 800MB/s to divide, and when both CPU and IGP are stressed (i.e. when running a game) they each only get 400MB/s, so less than the P2-333 on the MU440EX. That is what is utterly destroying performance on this system.

The S3 card would actually improve matters here - it would still be slow and ancient, vastly inferior to the i810E IGP, but it would at least free up the full 800MB/s memory bandwidth for the CPU, letting it perform at 3/4 of the speed of the same CPU in a decent motherboard with the same ancient card. A later PCI card (PCI GeForce MX2 or Radeon 7000) would improve graphical performance far more of course, but key is to stop using the IGP by whatever means necessary.

Bingo you got it 😀 Oddly enough all the specs say its only a 66mhz motherboard, yet this one has a pentium 100 in it haha. so some kind of Batman but tweaked.

A Pentium 100 runs at a 1.5x multiplier, so the motherboard runs at 66MHz. Specs are correct. Note that an So4 motherboard runs at 5V and an So5 CPU at 3.3V, so there's more than just a 'tweak' involved in running the other one.

I'd have to dig out the PC3 to see exactly what the cpu components are, as I corrected in my original post it is a 1GHZ processor not 500mhz as I errored definitely a socket not a slot type. The spec sticker on the side of the pc is attached.
As being a Compaq, its pretty low end OEM, and maybe its best to part with it after all.

Unless there's a different motherboard in there (highly unlikely, Compaq boards at this time were very non-standard), it still has the i810E chipset and so remains crap whatever else has been added.

Reply 10 of 24, by chinny22

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If you like PC3 it may still serve you well.
Most of my Win9x games are happy on a P3 600, so your 1Ghz may hide the performance hit your taking.
I guess I'd check the price for a good PCI card like the GF2 or Radeon mentoned above vs a AGP motherboard, card, case? and decide which way to go.

Reply 11 of 24, by starbond6

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Firstly, sorry dion i realized I never answered your question of what I want to do. Having grown up at the end of Win 3.1 era and most of my games came from the DOS-Windows XP era, I'd like to be able to play mostly a mix of DOS games (star trek rites, doom, wolfenstein, civ etc) and then windows 9x games (sim city, sim copter, titanic) as well as some late era games, like sims, driver, harry potter 1 etc.
The last few are pushing it with the PC2 Win98 computer. Driver suffers low FPS on low settings, and 3D games like harry potter barely work. I can always emulate it with pcEm or 86Box, but it would be nice to be able to set up a PC and sit down and put in a game and have it work. Actual XP era games are a separate issue until i wanted to convert PC3 to an XP motherboard.

PC3 guaranteed has a 810E since I had a photo of it I took a while ago and looked up the chipset # But while the case is funky, it does have two 3.5" bays and two 5.25" bays. Replacing the motherboard could be an option. PC2 only has one extra.5.25" bay and no extra 3.5" bays , a Packard Bell 607g https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u … .jpg&f=1&nofb=1 Not a big deal now, but would be nice to have options incase I wanted to do more with the system down the line.
In contrast, the P100 machine uses plastic runners that attach to the side of drives instead of screws, so as much as I would like to add on to it, I dont have any of those special runners to do so.

Reply 12 of 24, by Tetrium

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starbond6 wrote on 2022-05-03, 20:41:
Bingo you got it :) Oddly enough all the specs say its only a 66mhz motherboard, yet this one has a pentium 100 in it haha. so s […]
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Tetrium wrote on 2022-05-03, 19:53:

I kinda like PC1 🙂

Bingo you got it 😀 Oddly enough all the specs say its only a 66mhz motherboard, yet this one has a pentium 100 in it haha. so some kind of Batman but tweaked. My PSU doesnt have a lead for the auxiliary 3.3V PCI connector though, so not sure how that affects the PCI cards. The tower is a decent size too, looks just like this: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u … 26pid%3DApi&f=1

I'd have to dig out the PC3 to see exactly what the cpu components are, as I corrected in my original post it is a 1GHZ processor not 500mhz as I errored definitely a socket not a slot type. The spec sticker on the side of the pc is attached.
As being a Compaq, its pretty low end OEM, and maybe its best to part with it after all.

The 66MHz you're referring to references the speed of the motherboard. The CPU takes this speed and multiplies it for its internal speed. Like dionb already explained, your CPU uses a multiplier of 1.5x. And yes, if you run your motherboard at, say, 50MHz instead of 66MHz, your CPU will slow down to 75MHz.

Regarding your PC3, this means your board is also one of the more recent i810 ones.

Wiki sais this:

810E: added support for 133MHz FSB, Pentium III or Celeron "Coppermine-EB" Series CPU.

which would mean no Tualatin compatibility, which is a bit of a shame but it wouldn't run that much faster than the 1GHz CPU you already have.
Since it's the fastest one you (apparently) have, I'd consider keeping it if only because of your nostalgia. There's been ample people selling their old rigs, then later regretting it and having a hard time rebuilding it (especially finding the exact same case can be a challenge which may end up taking years in some cases. Or you simply won't find it, at all).

If it works, I'd say go ahead and enjoy 😁

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Reply 13 of 24, by dionb

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starbond6 wrote on 2022-05-03, 21:50:

Firstly, sorry dion i realized I never answered your question of what I want to do. Having grown up at the end of Win 3.1 era and most of my games came from the DOS-Windows XP era, I'd like to be able to play mostly a mix of DOS games (star trek rites, doom, wolfenstein, civ etc) and then windows 9x games (sim city, sim copter, titanic) as well as some late era games, like sims, driver, harry potter 1 etc.
The last few are pushing it with the PC2 Win98 computer. Driver suffers low FPS on low settings, and 3D games like harry potter barely work. I can always emulate it with pcEm or 86Box, but it would be nice to be able to set up a PC and sit down and put in a game and have it work. Actual XP era games are a separate issue until i wanted to convert PC3 to an XP motherboard.

The first lot can definitely work on either of PC1 or PC2.

The latter are pushing it on a P3 under best circumstances, and an i810E chipset is far, far from those best circumstances. For Sims I'd suggest a Tualatin or better AthlonXP / P4 AGP system running Win98SE (the AGP is to be sure there is still Win98SE driver support!)

PC3 guaranteed has a 810E since I had a photo of it I took a while ago and looked up the chipset # But while the case is funky, it does have two 3.5" bays and two 5.25" bays. Replacing the motherboard could be an option.

Again, not sure it is - Compaq used non-standard form factors and non-standard power supplies around this time (a 24p connector on a P3 board is NOT the same as an ATX 2.x 24p connector!).

PC2 only has one extra.5.25" bay and no extra 3.5" bays , a Packard Bell 607g https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u … .jpg&f=1&nofb=1 Not a big deal now, but would be nice to have options incase I wanted to do more with the system down the line.

Ah, the ugly Squarius I uATX case. Decent enough as-is, but not exactly designed with expandability in mind. I have two Squarius II cases that are a lot more flexible. One is on my son's desk, with a Core i3-7100 running in it, the other has a period-correct Packard Bell P3 motherboard with onboard Voodoo3 on it. Slightly tweaked it though: it's running a P3-1400S with a huge Zalman CNPS3000 passive heatsink and a 32GB SLC SSD 😉

Tbh though, expansion options are generally overrated, especially in retrospect. A single 5.25" optical drive and a single 3.5" drive (which may or may not be a Gotek) is enough for any practical purposes. Of course you can get all kinds of gimmicks, but they are best suited to some beige bigtower instead.

In contrast, the P100 machine uses plastic runners that attach to the side of drives instead of screws, so as much as I would like to add on to it, I dont have any of those special runners to do so.

Those things were a great idea, but the lack of standardization was awful. I have a few cases that use them and a big pile of plastic runners. Guess what? None fit...

Reply 14 of 24, by starbond6

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dionb wrote on 2022-05-04, 11:30:

Guess what? None fit...

I wish I could find some that did. or even know how to identify what I have. Would be nice to add a 5.25 floppy to that win 3.1 machine. Back in the late 00's my school district was tossing out their early 2000s Tangent Windows PCs and Win 2000 server towers. At one point I had close to 10 towers! Sadly over time I've had to sell them off or toss them so I'm down to three. BUT I did salvage anything I could other than the motherboard and case so I have tons of ram, FDDs, Zip drives and some ZIP100 disks etc.. juuust in case I ever want to play around with them.

Regarding PC3, what I feel like will happen is that I'll sell it and use the money to put towards some ~XP era machine with the specs youre recommending. I mean most things can be emulated now, I'm not going to lie, I have a pcEM virtual computer for pretty much every OS up to ME. But theres just something about turning on an old gray box and seeing the dos text and loading bars and messing around with hardware settings and such that just isn't the same on a Windows 10 machine running a emulator..guess thats why I'm here :p

As an aside, do you or anyone, know if there is a floppy disk image mounter for Win9x? I have a lot of .flp images that i made from my physical disks years ago and it would be nice to be able to mount them like I can do with emulated OSs. I see the gotek but not sure how it works, it uses a USB drive only but reads 1.44 worth of it? Or do you make 100 partitions with data on every one?

Reply 15 of 24, by Tetrium

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starbond6 wrote on 2022-05-05, 01:27:
dionb wrote on 2022-05-04, 11:30:

Guess what? None fit...

As an aside, do you or anyone, know if there is a floppy disk image mounter for Win9x? I have a lot of .flp images that i made from my physical disks years ago and it would be nice to be able to mount them like I can do with emulated OSs. I see the gotek but not sure how it works, it uses a USB drive only but reads 1.44 worth of it? Or do you make 100 partitions with data on every one?

Winimage? Nevermind, I misread your question. Good morning! xD

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Reply 16 of 24, by gerry

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starbond6 wrote on 2022-05-03, 13:37:

though you all might say 'keep them all!' 🤣
..
I'd love to keep them all but they just sit in the garage collecting dust until i bring them out once a year to see if they still work.

once a year is regular usage! yes i'd say keep them, are they doing something negative in your life by resting in the garage? At minimum they save some floor space from dust!

They are different enough too so that you can make PC1 a win95 with DOS games for fun. PC2 is great for that late 90's win 98 feel plus some games of that time. PC3 is fine too, and and can run circa 2000 games.

Of course you could run them all on any modern machine if you used dosbox and gog, but it can be fun to run things 'natively'

Reply 17 of 24, by chinny22

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For the Gotek you have 2 options.
The default firmware creates 100 1.44mb partitions. each partition acts like a true disk so copying an .flp file wont achieve anything, just like a CD drive cant read inside a iso image.
or you can get the Hxc firmware created by the retro community that does allow you to simply copy image files to to USB stick as well as a few other things.

For my basic needs for things such as boot disks, quick file transfer, etc I find the default firmware is fine.

Reply 18 of 24, by starbond6

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chinny22 wrote on 2022-05-05, 09:25:
For the Gotek you have 2 options. The default firmware creates 100 1.44mb partitions. each partition acts like a true disk so co […]
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For the Gotek you have 2 options.
The default firmware creates 100 1.44mb partitions. each partition acts like a true disk so copying an .flp file wont achieve anything, just like a CD drive cant read inside a iso image.
or you can get the Hxc firmware created by the retro community that does allow you to simply copy image files to to USB stick as well as a few other things.

For my basic needs for things such as boot disks, quick file transfer, etc I find the default firmware is fine.

Thanks for the description. Honestly that's not too bad. I could deal with having floppy files on partitions. I will keep the gotek in mind when my suppy of floppies run thin and slowly become unreadable

Reply 19 of 24, by starbond6

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As a last update, I got the Compaq out of storage to take a look to see what the true specs are, turns out its only a 700MHZ P3 coppermine, dont know what happened to the original 1ghz cpu. Ram is at 256MB, System info confirms a 810E chipset with integrated pci graphics. an ess1988 integrated AGP(?) soundcard with no dos support. All on a Mitac 6513WU OEM motherboard.