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First post, by OMORES

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To my surprise, NT 3.1 booted up fine on Q6850 3Ghz quad core system on a Intel G41 board. It looks like it doesn't care about too many Ghz, RAM and cores - so I will try to make it work on my Ryzen 3900x system which is already NT 3.51/4 compatible. All I need maybe is a compatible PCI controller which has drivers for NT 3.1?

G41 chipset was announced in late 2008 and somehow NT 3.1 from 1993 (without any service packs) could initialize the IDE adapter.

So, any idea what PCI-IDE adapters, probably from 1994-1997 era, can work with NT 3.1? I don't want to mess with SCSI. I have tried some PCI-IDE NT4 compatible adapters with no success. (these adapters work fine with NT 3.51, even they are listed as NT4 compatible only)

P.S.
I'm fully aware that NT 3.1 it's the least useful in the family, but being the first 32bit system it deserves a special treatment...

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Last edited by OMORES on 2022-05-12, 11:39. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1 of 15, by red-ray

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At a guess you configured the G41 SATA controller as IDE/EIDE rather then SATA in the BIOS, did you? Is it reported as below?

Does your Ryzen 3900x motherboard offer this option? I suspect not as my ASUS Crosshair VIII Formula doesn't, it only allows SATA (AHCI) + RAID.

Which motherboard do you have and does it have PCI slots or only PCIe ? If it's got PCI then I suspect a IDE controller meant for a i486/i386 system without an onboard disk controller is what you need.

Basically I suspect you need a controller with an EIDE/IDE Device Class that has Primary + Secondary IDE channels as below.

file.php?id=137134

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Reply 2 of 15, by OMORES

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red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 11:25:

At a guess you configured the G41 SATA controller as IDE/EIDE rather then SATA in the BIOS, did you? Is it reported as below?

Yes, IDE.

Initially, I installed NT 3.1 on my K6-2/500 system, with VIA MVP3 chipset - also supported. Once NT 3.1 was installed I connected the IDE hard drive to a socket AM3 motherboard -> where I got the "inaccessible boot device" BSOD. Then it booted straight to logon screen on G41 board.

red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 11:25:

Does your Ryzen 3900x motherboard offer this option? I suspect not as my ASUS Crosshair VIII Formula doesn't, it only allows SATA + RAID.

Nope, only AHCI and RAID. IDE does get mentioned on the BIOS's options - but even if make that menu visible by editing - it's a dead end...

red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 11:25:

Which motherboard do you have and does it have PCI slots or only PCIe ? If it's got PCI then I suspect a IDE controller meant for a i486/i386 system without an onboard disk controller is what you need.

I have an X470 with two PCI slots where I use a PCI to SATA VIA 6421A card compatible with NT 3.51/4/2000/XP etc also 9x. Only NT 3.1 is left out...

I wonder if this Tekram 690CD might to the trick, I saw it has NT 3.x drivers... But that caching might be a complication which breaks the compatibility on a new motherboard...

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Reply 3 of 15, by red-ray

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OMORES wrote on 2022-05-12, 11:54:
red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 11:25:

Is it reported as below?

Yes, IDE.

There may multiple flavours of IDE, which is why I asked "Is it reported as below?". If not post a screen shot of how it's reported if you wish me to try and help.

OMORES wrote on 2022-05-12, 11:54:
red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 11:25:

Which motherboard do you have and does it have PCI slots or only PCIe ?

I have an X470 with two PCI slots

X470 is the chipset, I asked which Motherboard.

Reply 4 of 15, by OMORES

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red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 12:16:

X470 is the chipset, I asked which Motherboard.

A fresh report attached.

This is for a separate topic: new BIOSes released for this motherboard are not 9X compatible anymore. 🙁 With the latest BIOS I get "VCACHE error" on Windows 95, 98, and ME. To be clear - it is the very same hardware, not a single cable changed. Lots of users get this error with newer motherboards - but I'm sure this is related to latest AMI BIOS updates rather than an actual hardware incompatibility. Something breaks the compatibility, but I really don't know what... I suspect it has to do with RAM.... Also, on this specific motherboard the latest BIOS update has a different "AMI PCI Bus driver" ... the original release has settings for PCI Latency and some other options...

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Reply 5 of 15, by red-ray

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OMORES wrote on 2022-05-12, 13:04:

A fresh report attached.

OK, I had not realised I had an old report! The VIA VT6421 is a RAID controller which means you will need a VIA driver, but with the G41/ICH9(?) I am guessing NT 3.10 used it's standard IDE driver, did it?

May I have the SIV save files from the G41 system so I can see exactly what the setup is? NT 3.10 has minimal if any PCI support so it needs to be running at least NT 3.51, I feel NT 4.0 or later would be a better choice.

I wonder if the stock NT 3.10 drivers will handle an Intel 31244 PCI-X to SATA I/O Controller. If so I suspect this may be a good option, but think you may need to do a say W10 boot and setup a boot.ini option for NT 3.10

file.php?id=137148

I have never tried and have no intension of trying to run W9x on anything post about 2002. In general am not interested W9x at all.

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Reply 6 of 15, by OMORES

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red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 13:42:
OMORES wrote on 2022-05-12, 13:04:

A fresh report attached.

May I have the SIV save files from the G41 system so I can see exactly what the setup is? NT 3.10 has minimal if any PCI support so it needs to be running at least NT 3.51, I feel NT 4.0 or later would be a better choice.

I'll get a report on that G41 board as soon as I get SIV running on it. (It's an Asrock G41 VS3 rev 2 - very common) For this board I have right now two HDDs one with NT 3.1 original and SP3 (both are working), and another with NT 3.51 which doesNT work using the same IDE port/settings...

The actual settings in BIOS are Compatible and Enhanced - NT 3.1 works on both, which I find interesting...

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Reply 7 of 15, by red-ray

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OMORES wrote on 2022-05-12, 14:48:

The actual settings in BIOS are Compatible and Enhanced - NT 3.1 works on both, which I find interesting...

Please set Enhanced for the save.

Can you easily boot a W7/W10 DVD/Flash? If so the do a save by running SIV from the recovery command window.

Reply 8 of 15, by OMORES

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red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 14:58:

Please set Enhanced for the save.

Done. P.S. I need a proper cooler for this 130W Q6850.

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Reply 9 of 15, by red-ray

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OMORES wrote on 2022-05-12, 17:09:

I need a proper cooler for this 130W Q6850

Thank you, looking at the save file the Intel 82801GB (ICH7) PATA I/O Controller is the same as my 6321ESB so you just need to find a PCI to EIDE card with a Device Class of 0x01018A (EIDE Controller) and the stock NT 3.10 drivers should work. Is there a jumper to switch the VIA from RAID to IDE/EIDE mode?

I looked on eBay and wonder if https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325007343258 or https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313760622823 would "do-the-trick".

How about an Intel FCLGA4-S Core 2 Extreme Reference Heatsink ? I have one on my Intel Core 2 Extreme QX9650 (Yorkfield) and it works well.

When running NT 3.51 on the QX6850 how many CPUs show up? I suspect one and wonder does the BIOS allow you get set the MPS version? If you set MPS 1.1 rather then MPS 1.4 NT 3.51 may see multiple CPUs, does it?

SIV failed to report the intel G41 Chipset Integrated Graphics clocks, does the attached SIV64X 5.64 iG41-10 test SIV?

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Reply 10 of 15, by OMORES

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red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 18:55:
OMORES wrote on 2022-05-12, 17:09:

I need a proper cooler for this 130W Q6850

Is there a jumper to switch the VIA from RAID to IDE/EIDE mode?

There is no jumper. But I believe that with a 40 pin classic IDE drive connected should work only in this mode...

red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 18:55:

I looked on eBay and wonder if https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325007343258 or https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313760622823 would "do-the-trick".

I have that Tekram card and indeed has drivers for NT, basically it comes bundled with a modified atdisk.sys. The card I have is a total mess - I does absolutely nothing on newer systems . On older systems K6-2, it can detect the drive - but won't boot... I tried several 4,6,8GB drives - even an 843MB perfectly working WD drive. As we speak I tested this card on a 486 PCI system... still doesn't boot.

If you are curios I attached a report from a NT 3.51 (no SP) running on a IBM 486 DX2/66 with 128MB RAM.

One CPU on G41, no MPS settings.

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Reply 11 of 15, by red-ray

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OMORES wrote on 2022-05-12, 20:48:

a report from a NT 3.51 (no SP) running on a IBM 486 DX2/66 with 128MB

Thank you, I am quite pleased to see SIV did the Save Local OK and in general worked!

SIV32L has screen display issues that SIV32O does not on NT 3.51, so it's best to use SIV32O. I also spotted SIV32L V5.62 BIOS-01 Built Nov 20 2021 at 07:59:54 whichis a test SIV and I advise you update to the files attached to SIV support for 386/486/586 class + Alpha CPUs and 3dfx + S3 + SiS + Matrox + XGI + old ATI + NVidia GPUs - Testing Help as if there are issues I can sensibly look into them.

OMORES wrote on 2022-05-12, 20:48:

[I have that Tekram card and indeed has drivers for NT, basically it comes bundled with a modified atdisk.sys. As we speak I tested this card on a 486 PCI system... still doesn't boot.

Does it come with an BIOS Option ROM ? If it has one then Menu->Hardware->BIOS Tables->BIOS Option ROM should list it. If it's not there then drives on it can't be booted.

What is it's Device Class?

Reply 12 of 15, by OMORES

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red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 21:08:

Does it come with an BIOS Option ROM ? If it has one then Menu->Hardware->BIOS Tables->BIOS Option ROM should list it. If it's not there then drives on it can't be booted.

What is it's Device Class?

There is no ROM chip on this Tekram controller, I did check with SIV and obviously nothing shows up.

I believe this early PCI-IDE controllers are supposed to be initialized by the BIOS. I have many ISA floppy/IDE controllers that work this way... This Tekram DC290 is recognized by the BIOS, the auto-dect function works, the HDD is listed as if is connected to the motherboard. (the on board IDE controller has priority and must be disabled)

Anyways it simply doesn't work with my hard drives: 844MB, 4GB, 8GB... I tried CHS/Normal/LBA and a fresh format after setting a new mode. I made it type 47 with 1024 cylinders (504MB) - this usually works with ISA controllers and bigger hard drives...

For NT 3.1 I need a controller with it's own BIOS... but automatically this will require a proper NT driver, otherwise will work only during setup and will crash at startup.

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Reply 13 of 15, by Babasha

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OMORES wrote on 2022-05-13, 15:54:
There is no ROM chip on this Tekram controller, I did check with SIV and obviously nothing shows up. […]
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red-ray wrote on 2022-05-12, 21:08:

Does it come with an BIOS Option ROM ? If it has one then Menu->Hardware->BIOS Tables->BIOS Option ROM should list it. If it's not there then drives on it can't be booted.

What is it's Device Class?

There is no ROM chip on this Tekram controller, I did check with SIV and obviously nothing shows up.

I believe this early PCI-IDE controllers are supposed to be initialized by the BIOS. I have many ISA floppy/IDE controllers that work this way... This Tekram DC290 is recognized by the BIOS, the auto-dect function works, the HDD is listed as if is connected to the motherboard. (the on board IDE controller has priority and must be disabled)

Anyways it simply doesn't work with my hard drives: 844MB, 4GB, 8GB... I tried CHS/Normal/LBA and a fresh format after setting a new mode. I made it type 47 with 1024 cylinders (504MB) - this usually works with ISA controllers and bigger hard drives...

For NT 3.1 I need a controller with it's own BIOS... but automatically this will require a proper NT driver, otherwise will work only during setup and will crash at startup.

Same as Tekram DC-6x0 it req’s paddle-board with cable in own connector and in ISA slot, or very old motherboard with manual PCI INT-x assing.

Need help? Begin with photo and model of your hardware! 😉

Reply 14 of 15, by OMORES

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Babasha wrote on 2022-05-13, 16:48:

Same as Tekram DC-6x0 it req’s paddle-board with cable in own connector and in ISA slot, or very old motherboard with manual PCI INT-x assing.

I have that evil paddle... 😀 So... this Tekram controller is demoted to ISA only systems.

For a PCI only NT 3.x configuration, this PROMISE Ultra ATA-66 looks promising...

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Reply 15 of 15, by red-ray

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Thank you, It's as I guessed IDE, not even EIDE. Why are there no device descriptions? I can see PCIDEVS.txt is there, so there should be.

OMORES wrote on 2022-05-13, 15:54:

For NT 3.1 I need a controller with it's own BIOS...

Given you have W10 on the system I don't see why. Just use BCDEDIT to setup a {legacy} boot option that will use boot.ini and add the NT 3.10 system to boot.ini. I would also do bcdedit /set bootmenupolicy legacy

Looking in the Jan-1999 MSDN I found as below. I suspect it's 20+ years since I last used scsi(0) in a boot.ini!

Ntbootdd.sys — required only if you are using the scsi() syntax in the Boot.ini file. This file is not present in the root folder if you are using the multi() syntax.

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=scsi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\FT_TEST
[operating systems]
scsi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\FT_TEST="Original Disk"
scsi(1)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\FT_TEST="Shadow Disk"

Update: I just realised I have a SIV save of this and all the BARs are the same, very strange and probably invalid.

file.php?id=137268

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