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When retro becomes retro?

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First post, by rkurbatov

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I remember how I piled some old hardware back in 2006-2007 to try some 'retro'. There were some gems as for today like Voodoo 1 adapter, Dual Socket A motherboard (where ordinary Athlons could be used), Matrox Myllenium. Or how I sold my old 486 in 2001 to get new shiny Duron thinking 'who can use this old crap'.

The question is - when retro becomes retro? How this old dusty hardware becomes popular again and what defines its value? Will ever something that is sold for nothing now - like Socket 478 boards and CPUs, old Core 2, DDR2 memory - become retro in a while?

Like personally I am interested in ten years from 1990 to 2000 (maybe a year or two to either sides). There is an 8-bit computing I'm also digging in, but for a different reason - that's the platform that can be fully understood by a single person, every chip and every CPU command, when you can create your own computer and make code for it. But for hardware of x86 era I'm again just a user with a little bit of nostalgic feelings and little bit of curiousity - trying old expensive stuff that I could not afford that days.

Something earlier - and it's simply useless, like 8086 or 80286, not much variation in software and hardware and too slow equipment to try something interesting. Something later - and it became boring thing of two concurrent designs. Technically, I can have only one XP compatible PC to play everything from 2002 to 2012 and the modern one with Windows 11 to play everything else. On the other hand, variety of software and hardware of this Golden Decade allows me to have plenty of builds where a year could change everything. I bought my Ryzen 9 3900x two years ago, it was advanced CPU then, not the best one but very good one. I was surprised seeing that AMD announced the new Ryzen family only ysterday - technically my CPU is on the same level in the same niche. It will be sufficient for at least two more years for my work (or probably even more, because it was working on lower frequency - I chose too small case for such a heaty). And my good old Phenom II from 2010 is technically the same PC but a slower one. I still can use it for lots of games and ordinary tasks (and even for work if flow and tests were not so demanidng). My Am486DX4-100 that was bought in 1997 became ABSOLUTE CRAP in early 2002, too slow for Windows 98, so I missed it completely, switchig to XP.

So will my Phenom become retro PC, an interesting one for future me? Or my Ryzen? Or they miss that important charming part that we search for in much older machines?

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 1 of 44, by Soap

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I try not get lost in it or dance to someone else's tune, upto you I guess.

To me I consider retro 1990 - 2010

Vintage well anything before 1990

Say on eBay Retro is just an excuse slap a premium on a product that means nothing to the seller.

Reply 3 of 44, by ThinkpadIL

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My scale (developed few minutes ago):

V - Vintage - Hardware that is designed to work under Machine Code, Basic or CP/M systems.
R - Retro - Hardware that is designed to work under MS-DOS, OS/2, Windows 3.1, Windows 95/98/Me or Windows NT 3.1/3.50/3,51/4.0.
VOJ - Very Old Junk - Hardware that is designed to work under Windows XP/2000.
OJ - Old Junk - Hardware that is designed to work under Windows Vista/7 or Windows Server 2003/2008.
J - Junk - Hardware that is designed to work under Windows 8/8.1 or Windows Server 2012/2016
O - Old - Hardware that is designed to work under Windows 10 or Windows Server 2019.
N - New - Hardware that is designed to work under Windows 11 or Windows Server 2022.

Reply 4 of 44, by H3nrik V!

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leileilol wrote on 2022-08-29, 21:00:

the stuff when you're 12

Makes sense to me, to some extent at least. Retro for me is the stuff I had when I was, well, pre-teen up to my early 20s, and especially the stuff I didn't have back then, all the state of the art hardware, which I could only dream of then.

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

Reply 5 of 44, by Zup

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My answer is... when you see it as a mean to re-live your memories.

I have traveled across the universe and through the years to find Her.
Sometimes going all the way is just a start...

I'm selling some stuff!

Reply 6 of 44, by creepingnet

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I see the cycle as this...

1-3 Years Old - Cutting Edge Technololgy, very expensive, only a few people have it, lots of bugs (usually)
3-5 Years Old - Mainstream technology, okayish prices, more features, more stability, a few bugs left
5-10 Years old - Budget/Old Workhorse, prices start coming down, support slowly dropped, bugs mostly worked out
10-15 years Old - Garbage/E-Waste, people throw them away, peple like me make a cheap hobby out of it
15-20 years Old - Pre-Retro, some people get into it, this is like LGR circa 2008 with his NCR 386 or VWestlife
20-25 years Old - Retro-Anointing, More people get into it, prices start to rise, numbers go down more
25+ Years Old - Mainstream Retro, everyone wants one, E-bay charges an arm and a leg, lots of pages and youtubes dedicated to the hardware

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Reply 7 of 44, by RetroGamer4Ever

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As far as x86 hardware goes, I consider Retro to be anything up to about 2012 or so and capable of running - out of the box - Windows XP or whatever older, age-appropriate Windows OS. Anything after that, I consider current PC hardware, since it can likely run the latest 64-bit Windows or Linux without hesitation.

Reply 8 of 44, by Horun

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I do not consider any older original computer, hardware, automobile, etc as retro. Being an old fart was taught Retro was meant as looking old fashioned but modern made.
The definition is still the same if you look it up.....Have seen some new made benches and couch's that look like the 60's original vinyl types. Same with some clothing.
So I guess a new made XT or 486 motherboard and was put in new made to look like a 1990's case. That could be considered retro.
Simply: Vintage is the original old thing. Retro is a modern remake of the old thing.

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 9 of 44, by Intel486dx33

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Yeah, I think retro computers are before date 2005.
That was the Glory days in Silicon Valley when the BIG Unix computer power houses ruled the World.
( HP, IBM, SGI, Sun Microsystems, Apple )
And the MS Windows computer manufactures.
That was a time with a Big selection of hardware.
You could configure and customize your business how ever you liked.
There was allot to choose from.

Reply 10 of 44, by The Serpent Rider

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10+ years, can't do modern tasks efficiently or at all, but can do something that modern hardware struggle to do. Like working in Windows XP environment, don't have legacy BIOS or can't properly render some things in pre-DX10 era games. But keep in mind that old office computers with almighty Celerons would be mostly considered old junk even after 20+ years.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 11 of 44, by Bendejo

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With video games, i'd say PS2 era and older is retro. PS3 era starting to become retro but games from those times still got a lot in common with games from today.

With PC's i'd say anything Windows XP and earlier.

Phones? Anything older than Iphone first gen.

Reply 12 of 44, by rkurbatov

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leileilol wrote on 2022-08-29, 21:00:

the stuff when you're 12

That's retro personally for YOU. But what about young hipsters - these mad creatures that bought everything? 😀 If you are 25, for example, and play with stuff older than you?

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 13 of 44, by rkurbatov

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leileilol wrote on 2022-08-29, 21:00:

the stuff when you're 12

That's retro personally for YOU. But what about young hipsters - these mad creatures that bought everything? 😀 If you are 25, for example, and play with stuff older than you?

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-08-29, 21:25:
My scale (developed few minutes ago): […]
Show full quote

My scale (developed few minutes ago):

V - Vintage - Hardware that is designed to work under Machine Code, Basic or CP/M systems.
R - Retro - Hardware that is designed to work under MS-DOS, OS/2, Windows 3.1, Windows 95/98/Me or Windows NT 3.1/3.50/3,51/4.0.
VOJ - Very Old Junk - Hardware that is designed to work under Windows XP/2000.
OJ - Old Junk - Hardware that is designed to work under Windows Vista/7 or Windows Server 2003/2008.
J - Junk - Hardware that is designed to work under Windows 8/8.1 or Windows Server 2012/2016
O - Old - Hardware that is designed to work under Windows 10 or Windows Server 2019.
N - New - Hardware that is designed to work under Windows 11 or Windows Server 2022.

That's interesting.

And once again - will Socket A, Socket 478 and more modern devices ever become retro PCs (or at least AS INTERESTING as what we consider retro now)? I mean at some point (like late XP) it all became so boring... I don't have memory managers, utilities and stuff like this anymore. I install OS, install browser and, probably, Steam or something like this. If I don't use PC for hobbies (like photography) or work, if it's Personal PC, the difference is only in the pure power - whether this game/software will work or not - and that will remain until something new, like Arm devices, will arrive. Will such devices become retro anytime?

486: ECS UM486 VLB, 256kb cache, i486 DX2/66, 8MB RAM, Trident TGUI9440AGi VLB 1MB, Pro Audio Spectrum 16, FDD 3.5, ZIP 100 ATA
PII: Asus P2B, Pentium II 400MHz, 512MB RAM, Trident 9750 AGP 4MB, Voodoo2 SLI, MonsterSound MX300

Reply 14 of 44, by leileilol

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rkurbatov wrote on 2022-08-30, 06:38:

That's retro personally for YOU. But what about young hipsters - these mad creatures that bought everything? 😀 If you are 25, for example, and play with stuff older than you?

They'll need the context of the existence of the parts, the common pcs around, and not to be shocked that the framerates aren't 60, education on CRT types and RAMDACs, 1st gen 3d, consoles' relatively low barrier of entry, etc.

There's a lot that can be covered that's just taken for granted as 'wow pixel graphics'

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Reply 15 of 44, by RandomStranger

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I feel like static scales, like pointing at certain years as an unchanging border for something being retro are bad because those ignore the passage of time or lose consistency when the border is updated. My scale is very simple with a naturally moving entry point.

1.) Obsolete: Stuff that just got out of first party support. No longer gets driver updates, modern Windows may still supports it and can still be a decent daily driver for anything other the most demanding stuff (for AAA gaming it's around the official minimum system requirements). That's normally up to 6-10 years old these days.

2.) Retro: You can't expect a reasonably good user experience if any with a current mainstream (currently supported versions of Windows if it installs at all without workarounds) OS for modern use maybe other than the most basic stuff. That's from about 10-14 to about 17 years old.

3.) Vintage: If it was a human it would be considered a full adult, or to put it in another way, people who were born when it hit the market are full adults today. 18+ years old.

So by my standards Ivy Bridge is just about to go retro, Core2 is retro, but the earliest models are just about to go vintage.

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Reply 16 of 44, by Kruton 9000

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Vintage - 8-bit computers
Retro - starting from 16-bit up to early Socket 775/ AM2/ Via C7 builds capable to run Windows 98 without any problems. DOS, Windows 3.X, Windows 9X, Windows NT 3-4, Windows 2000, OS/2 machines
Windows XP isn't retro yet. It is more or less usable even now. You can run very compatible Office 2010 and different semi-modern browsers with unofficial modern encryption on it and use it everyday as an office machine.

Reply 18 of 44, by RandomStranger

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Kruton 9000 wrote on 2022-08-30, 07:53:

Windows XP isn't retro yet. It is more or less usable even now. You can run very compatible Office 2010 and different semi-modern browsers with unofficial modern encryption on it and use it everyday as an office machine.

And that's the point. It's only more or less usable even with workarounds, hacking and unofficial stuff. It'd be more accurate to say it's not completely unusable, but neither hassle free and convenient. Mid-to-late XP era hardware is still entirely usable with Linux though and late era is fine with Windows 10 too. But XP itself is really pushing it. I wouldn't recommend anyone to daily drive it.

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Reply 19 of 44, by The Serpent Rider

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Windows XP is hardly usable nowadays, because a lot of workarounds required (especially for Windows XP 64-bit) and you're stuck with old hardware. Oldest Microsoft OS which works fine for now is Windows 7, but that will end next year.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.