Just doing a bit of research, I discovered that the voodoo came out in 1996... but that the S3 Virge and Matrox 3D cards came out earlier.
So, for a 486, I suppose one of those cards would be more appropriate for the hardware?

Hi there! 🙂
I think the S3 Virge 325 is rather trouble free. It has the same 2D core as the S3 Trio 64V+, I believe.
I have a bunch of those here and they never caused me much of a trouble.

Except for the S3 Windows 3.1 drivers, maybe.
Re: Emulation on MS Windows 3.1x ?

But even then, the old Super VGA drivers were an alternative that worked with the S3s.

Tools like S3VBE20 can further optimize the card, if needed.
There are also little utilities to fix the bright black on LCDs.

So if you don't know what to settle for, an old S3 ViRGE is nice to have as a starter.
Later on, it can be helpful as a backup card or as card for testing.

On the internet auctions, an S3 should be available for 20€ or less.

This has probably been discussed a hundred times here, but, I don't believe there is any reason to run a Voodoo 2 on a 486DX2-66.

Check this page for benchmark results:
Voodoo 1 vs. Voodoo 2 on a 486

Those tests were done with a Cyrix 5x86 133Mhz, which is one of the fastest 486 class CPUs and is much much faster than a standard DX2-66.

Also, an FX5500 is not a good match for such a system at all. I'm not sure if it would even work, but if it does it will provide no real benefit over a 2MB S3 Trio64 or something similar under DOS on a 66Mhz 486. And if you intend to use it in Windows, a 486DX2 will not be capable of running even the operating system and drivers for such a card.

If you are going for period-correct, you need to first figure out what the period is. A DX2-66 was a great processor in 1992-1993, but it is not going to give you a very good experience in games from 1995 or newer, which would encompass all 3D accelerated games.

Even a Voodoo 1 is not really all that useful on a 486-class system unless you have a top performing 5x86 of some sort to drop into it.
Best cpu for 3dfx on a 486?

In short... if you're wanting to play games that can make good use of a Voodoo 2, you need a Pentium 200Mhz MMX or better, a Pentium 2, Pentium 3, K6-2 etc.

If you want to play games from 1990-1994, your DX2 will be fine and you can use nearly any 1MB or 2MB PCI graphics card from the '90s without it causing any performance limitation (except for a handful of specific cards that are quirky or slow in some situations).

If you really want to play 3dfx games on your 486 system your going to need a much faster CPU to put in it, which is going to be hard to find or very expensive these days.

I use a cirrus logic PCI CL-GD5446 with my voodoo2, lovely 2d card with mpeg decoder, so FMVs run silky smooth when paired with a 2-4x cd-rom. and they're cheap as chips )
Though do note that voodoo compatible games usually do require a pentium at 90mhz minimum. Actua soccer was the only voodoo game i remember having that claimed to have voodoo 1 support which did say "minimum requirements: 486DX33"
(and please note that i no longer have that game)

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2023-01-22, 06:59:

This has probably been discussed a hundred times here, but, I don't believe there is any reason to run a Voodoo 2 on a 486DX2-66 […]
Show full quote

This has probably been discussed a hundred times here, but, I don't believe there is any reason to run a Voodoo 2 on a 486DX2-66.

Check this page for benchmark results:
Voodoo 1 vs. Voodoo 2 on a 486

Those tests were done with a Cyrix 5x86 133Mhz, which is one of the fastest 486 class CPUs and is much much faster than a standard DX2-66.

Also, an FX5500 is not a good match for such a system at all. I'm not sure if it would even work, but if it does it will provide no real benefit over a 2MB S3 Trio64 or something similar under DOS on a 66Mhz 486. And if you intend to use it in Windows, a 486DX2 will not be capable of running even the operating system and drivers for such a card.

If you are going for period-correct, you need to first figure out what the period is. A DX2-66 was a great processor in 1992-1993, but it is not going to give you a very good experience in games from 1995 or newer, which would encompass all 3D accelerated games.

Even a Voodoo 1 is not really all that useful on a 486-class system unless you have a top performing 5x86 of some sort to drop into it.
Best cpu for 3dfx on a 486?

In short... if you're wanting to play games that can make good use of a Voodoo 2, you need a Pentium 200Mhz MMX or better, a Pentium 2, Pentium 3, K6-2 etc.

If you want to play games from 1990-1994, your DX2 will be fine and you can use nearly any 1MB or 2MB PCI graphics card from the '90s without it causing any performance limitation (except for a handful of specific cards that are quirky or slow in some situations).

If you really want to play 3dfx games on your 486 system your going to need a much faster CPU to put in it, which is going to be hard to find or very expensive these days.

Wouldn't the creative labs 3d blaster vlb be the most period correct card to run with a 486?

Hamby wrote on 2023-01-22, 05:16:

I'm putting together a 486 system in the next few weeks (with luck). Assuming the motherboard works, it'll be 486DX-66. It has b […]
Show full quote

I'm putting together a 486 system in the next few weeks (with luck).
Assuming the motherboard works, it'll be 486DX-66. It has both ISA and PCI slots on it.
I plan on sticking either MSDOS 6.22 on it, or FreeDOS; I also hope to get Desqview/X running on it.
I've got an PCI Nvidia FX5500 video card I could stick in it, which might work, and might be overkill.

So, does anybody know of a PCI vga card with 2D but no 3D acceleration I could try picking up?

I suppose I could get one with 3D acceleration, too, but I don't know how that would conflict with the Voodoo.

I plan on using the system for programming, period-appropriate games, and period-appropriate graphics work, as well as the aforementioned Desqview/X to access my Linux box.

My favorite PCI video card for DOS games, particularly older systems is the S3 Virge. S3 seems to offer the best compatibility and good performance for dos titles. They come in 2MB and 4MB flavours - a 4MB Virge will allow for higher resolutions in windows, but a 2mb card is likely to be a better deal. You can also get an S3 Trio64 - these are also pretty good, and often cheaper than the virge, but only come with 1 or 2MB of vram. If you don't care for high resolutions in windows, the amount of video memory doesn't matter much.

Another good choice is Cirrus Logic. PCI CD-GD54xx cards (5424, 5466, etc) offer excelent DOS performance. Most cards come with 1MB of video memory expandable to 2MB.

One question - why put a voodoo 2 in a 66MHz 486 machine?

At 66MHz it will be SLOW. From my experience, regardless of how new the mainboard / chipset is, at 66MHz a 486 will not run Duke3d, Descent or Quake at an enjoyable framerate. Glide Tomb Raider, GLQuake, 3DFX Descent and so on will not offer a good experience. At a minimum I'd recommend a 133MHz 5x86-p75. Even then you will only be getting 18-19fps tops in games like GLQuake, but games like Descent 3DFX should get 20-25.

AppleSauce wrote on 2023-01-22, 08:41:

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2023-01-22, 06:59:

This has probably been discussed a hundred times here, but, I don't believe there is any reason to run a Voodoo 2 on a 486DX2-66 […]
Show full quote

This has probably been discussed a hundred times here, but, I don't believe there is any reason to run a Voodoo 2 on a 486DX2-66.

Check this page for benchmark results:
Voodoo 1 vs. Voodoo 2 on a 486

Those tests were done with a Cyrix 5x86 133Mhz, which is one of the fastest 486 class CPUs and is much much faster than a standard DX2-66.

Also, an FX5500 is not a good match for such a system at all. I'm not sure if it would even work, but if it does it will provide no real benefit over a 2MB S3 Trio64 or something similar under DOS on a 66Mhz 486. And if you intend to use it in Windows, a 486DX2 will not be capable of running even the operating system and drivers for such a card.

If you are going for period-correct, you need to first figure out what the period is. A DX2-66 was a great processor in 1992-1993, but it is not going to give you a very good experience in games from 1995 or newer, which would encompass all 3D accelerated games.

Even a Voodoo 1 is not really all that useful on a 486-class system unless you have a top performing 5x86 of some sort to drop into it.
Best cpu for 3dfx on a 486?

In short... if you're wanting to play games that can make good use of a Voodoo 2, you need a Pentium 200Mhz MMX or better, a Pentium 2, Pentium 3, K6-2 etc.

If you want to play games from 1990-1994, your DX2 will be fine and you can use nearly any 1MB or 2MB PCI graphics card from the '90s without it causing any performance limitation (except for a handful of specific cards that are quirky or slow in some situations).

If you really want to play 3dfx games on your 486 system your going to need a much faster CPU to put in it, which is going to be hard to find or very expensive these days.

Wouldn't the creative labs 3d blaster vlb be the most period correct card to run with a 486?

I'm not sure what "most period correct" really even means, but since hardly anyone had one of those and they are among the rarest and most collectible cards from the 90s, I don't think it matters too much. That said, no, I don't think a 66Mhz DX2 from 1992 is the ideal fit for a cutting edge 3D accelerator from 1995. CPUs basically quadrupled in performance in that span of time. The fastest and most recent CPU you could put in a VLB board would likely be the best match for a 3D Blaster VLB, if you ever happened to find one.

It sounds like the OP has a PCI board anyway.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-22, 05:29:

I think the S3 Virge 325 is rather trouble free. It has the same 2D core as the S3 Trio 64V+, I believe.

Except for the S3 Windows 3.1 drivers, maybe.
Re: Emulation on MS Windows 3.1x ?

This is a common misconception. The Virge has an entirely different 2D acceleration core than the Trio 64V+. And that's why you get issues with the Windows 3.1 drivers: They do not support the new 2D accelerator of the Virge chip. The Virge is extremely similar to the Trio 64V+ as long as you just use it as a framebuffer card, though. Also, the pinout of the Virge matches the native pinout of the Trio 64V+ (but the Trio 64V+ can be operated in "Trio 64 compabitility mode" that has a different pinout). So for unaccelerated 2D support, the Virge can in fact be a drop-in replacement for the Trio 64V+, both on the software and the hardware layer.

The 2D acceleration support of the Virge is provided by the same engine that also performs 3D operations. The programming model of the Virge 2D engine is very different from the programming model of the classic S3 engine (which is similar to the 8514/A and evolved gradually starting at the S3 911), but the similarity between the Virge 2D and Virge 3D commands is obvious. For example, the slope of lines is specified using Bresenham parameters on the 8514/A and the classic S3 engine, whereas it is specified as a 32-bit fixed-point number on the Virge engine.

Socket3 wrote on 2023-01-22, 09:03:

My favorite PCI video card for DOS games, particularly older systems is the S3 Virge. S3 seems to offer the best compatibility f […]
Show full quote

Hamby wrote on 2023-01-22, 05:16:

I'm putting together a 486 system in the next few weeks (with luck). Assuming the motherboard works, it'll be 486DX-66. It has b […]
Show full quote

I'm putting together a 486 system in the next few weeks (with luck).
Assuming the motherboard works, it'll be 486DX-66. It has both ISA and PCI slots on it.
I plan on sticking either MSDOS 6.22 on it, or FreeDOS; I also hope to get Desqview/X running on it.
I've got an PCI Nvidia FX5500 video card I could stick in it, which might work, and might be overkill.

So, does anybody know of a PCI vga card with 2D but no 3D acceleration I could try picking up?

I suppose I could get one with 3D acceleration, too, but I don't know how that would conflict with the Voodoo.

I plan on using the system for programming, period-appropriate games, and period-appropriate graphics work, as well as the aforementioned Desqview/X to access my Linux box.

My favorite PCI video card for DOS games, particularly older systems is the S3 Virge. S3 seems to offer the best compatibility for dos titles and performance is good as well. A 4MB card will also allow for higher resolutions in windows as well. You could also get an S3 Trio64, these are quite good as well and lots of times cheaper then the virge, but only come with 2MB of vram - then again if you don't care for high resolutions in windows the amount of video memory doesn't matter much.

Another good choice is Cirrus Logic. PCI CD-GD54xx cards (5424, 5466, etc) offer excelent DOS performance. Most cards come with 1MB of video memory expandable to 2MB.

One question - why put a voodoo 2 in a 66MHz 486 machine?

At 66MHz it will be SLOW. From my experience, regardless of how new the mainboard / chipset is, at 66MHz a 486 will not run Duke3d, Descent or Quake at an enjoyable framerate. Glide Tomb Raider, GLQuake, 3DFX Descent and so on will not offer a good experience. At a minimum I'd recommend a 133MHz 5x86-p75. Even then you will only be getting 18-19fps tops in games like GLQuake, but games like Descent 3DFX should get 20-25.

Yep, S3 Virge or Trio64 are safe trouble free bets for DOS games. Try getting one from a reputable maker if possible, the design of the analog part of the video circuitry might be somewhat lacking on cheap no name cards.

mkarcher wrote on 2023-01-22, 10:54:

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-22, 05:29:

I think the S3 Virge 325 is rather trouble free. It has the same 2D core as the S3 Trio 64V+, I believe.

Except for the S3 Windows 3.1 drivers, maybe.
Re: Emulation on MS Windows 3.1x ?

This is a common misconception. The Virge has an entirely different 2D acceleration core than the Trio 64V+. And that's why you get issues with the Windows 3.1 drivers: They do not support the new 2D accelerator of the Virge chip.

Um, okay. Though I did take the extra step and install the ViRGE drivers for Windows 3.1x, nevertheless.
So it always were the correct drivers, from the very start.
What I was thinking of when I was mentioning compatibility was S3VBE20 utility, the VGA core and the SVGA mode lists of the S3 cards.
The Super VGA drivers in WfW 3.11 are unaccelerated, afaik. They were differently modified in the past to invoke generic VESA VBE modes, as well as use VMware compatible video modes.

Edit: The S3 emulation in DOSBox is a different matter, though.
Its S3 Trio32/64 emulation started out as an emulation of the S3 Vision (predecessor), afaik.
So it might be that I'm not using the best drivers.

Edit: On a side note, the problem with Windows 3.x drivers over Windows 9x drivers is,
that the former contains a much more complex implementation of the GDI.
This caused a much higher risk for bugs and glitches than on its successor:
In Windows 9x, the video driver itself is little more than an interface to the hardware (not including DirectX here).
However, full-featured Windows 3.1x drivers can still be loaded on Windows 9x, if needed.

The best ones I've used without any 3D acceleration: S3 Trio64V+ and Cirrus Logic GD5446. Just make sure that it comes from a good manufacturer for decent image quality.

Also, S3 ViRGE cards are great for 2D stuff as the others mentioned. All the problems involving 3D acceleration are around Direct3D and even then, the Voodoo2 card gets prioritized in early games.

Trident TGUI9680 based cards were quite decent as well for 2D, AFAICR.

darry wrote on 2023-01-22, 14:55:

Trident TGUI9680 based cards were quite decent as well for 2D, AFAICR.

Yep, but having both that card and the 3DImàge 9750, I find Trident's VESA implementation lacking even with UniVBE loaded.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-01-22, 15:19:

darry wrote on 2023-01-22, 14:55:

Trident TGUI9680 based cards were quite decent as well for 2D, AFAICR.

Yep, but having both that card and the 3DImàge 9750, I find Trident's VESA implementation lacking even with UniVBE loaded.

In what way(s) is it lacking on the VESA front ? Performance ? Compatibility ?

I last owned and used a 9680 on AMD 586-133 overclocked to 160MHz and I think I recall playing Duke Nukem 3D and other games on it in an SVGA mode. I also owned a an S3 Trio64V+ at around that same time and I switched from one to the other (couldn't say which one I had first) for no particular reason that I can recall now . I don't recall issues with either of them, but I may well have forgotten something . I do remember that the 9680 card I had was made by Jaton and that I upgraded its RAM to either 2MB or 4MB (just because I could).

EDIT: On further thought, I am pretty confident that the S3 got replaced by the Trident in my system at the time .

darry wrote on 2023-01-22, 17:24:

In what way(s) is it lacking on the VESA front ? Performance ? Compatibility ? […]
Show full quote

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-01-22, 15:19:

darry wrote on 2023-01-22, 14:55:

Trident TGUI9680 based cards were quite decent as well for 2D, AFAICR.

Yep, but having both that card and the 3DImàge 9750, I find Trident's VESA implementation lacking even with UniVBE loaded.

In what way(s) is it lacking on the VESA front ? Performance ? Compatibility ?

I last owned and used a 9680 on AMD 586-133 overclocked to 160MHz and I think I recall playing Duke Nukem 3D and other games on it in an SVGA mode. I also owned a an S3 Trio64V+ at around that same time and I switched from one to the other (couldn't say which one I had first) for no particular reason that I can recall now . I don't recall issues with either of them, but I may well have forgotten something . I do remember that the 9680 card I had was made by Jaton and that I upgraded its RAM to either 2MB or 4MB (just because I could).

EDIT: On further thought, I am pretty confident that the S3 got replaced by the Trident in my system at the time .

Compatibility and in certain video modes, performance. To be fair though, it is mostly with lower resolutions (320x480, 400x300 and 512x384) which people don't talk much and demoscene stuff.

Wow... thanks for all the advice and info. No matter which way I go, I learned a lot, both technically and historically.

I have a mini-AT pentium motherboard with a 166mhz cpu that I will eventually stick in a case. I also recently acquired a pentium system I haven't yet had a chance to look at (I got it as part of a purchase for the case I intend putting the 486 in). It's a single board computer on a backplane; not even sure if it's isa or pci. And I have a K6-II 300 and K6-III 850 motherboard/cpu, so I have the ability to make a system able to run Win9x and games from the mid-late 90s. And I'll eventually build them. I didn't *want* to put the FX5500 in the 486; I just have a PCI and an AGP version of the card. I can/will run more demanding games on them, and then there's also always emulation.

My interest as far as 3D is concerned is less the ability to play 3D games such as Quake, and more the ability to play around with programming for the Voodoo 2 1000. Writing little demos, *maybe* a little game, even.
In 1992, my daily driver was an Amiga 2000/3000. So I kind of missed out on that era of DOS computing (I did build myself a 286 out of necessity, at the time). If I can get the equivalent 3d capability as created with the 3d modeling programs Videoscape 3D, Imagine and Sculpt 3D of the era, I'll be more than happy. Heck, Lightwave3D ran on a 68030 Amiga 2000.

As far as playing games, if I can play games such as Eye of the Beholder, Flashback, Shadowcaster... Isometric games like Crusader: No Remorse (which would be pushing the hardware, I'm sure; it requires vesa compatibility), some of the Sierra games like the Space Quest series, Lucas Arts games such as Day of the Tentacle or Full Throttle (again, pushing it), possibly Betrayal at Krondor, the original Wing Commander, *maybe* even Myst under WFW 3.11 ... I'll be happy.

2D acceleration will be important because one of my amusements is networking my old systems, and I'll want 2D acceleration for Desqview/X (assuming it even supports 2D acceleration) to access my Linux box. I don't expect to do anything productive with it, however.

Thanks again for all the ideas. I guess I'll shop for an S3, or the Trident or Cirrus cards.

I'd prefer Trio over Virge due to Virge's D3D getting in the way, which would be a Voodoo-deterrent for some games. It's also more "period" fitting as the Trio64v+ came around the time of 133MHz 486s.

Voodoo2 works on 486s fine, probably is the fastest 3d card you can put in there due to the least driver overhead and the triangle setup/multitexturing benefits. It's definitely out of the 486 period though, unless you count those 486 longhaulers going into 2000....

Hamby wrote on 2023-01-22, 20:56:

2D acceleration will be important because one of my amusements is networking my old systems, and I'll want 2D acceleration for Desqview/X (assuming it even supports 2D acceleration) to access my Linux box. I don't expect to do anything productive with it, however.

I'm not sure, but maybe the author of FodTrack has some tips for DesqView/X.
This radio amateur used DV/X in the 90s on his PC for satellite tracking/Packet Radio.
For real work, in other words.
His current callsign is XQ6FOD and his last entry on QRZ.COM was from 2021.
So chances are good he's still with us.

https://www.qrz.com/db/XQ6FOD
https://www.qsl.net/xq2fod/Radiacti/Radiacti.html