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General advice for building first retro gaming pc

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Reply 120 of 135, by dormcat

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-05-22, 14:21:
bloodem wrote on 2023-05-22, 14:02:

At this point, I have 27 x fully built PCs that span 4 decades and have tested hundreds of platforms in the past years, and yet I still pick the Athlon XP build every time I just want to easily play games without any hassle. Yes, even when I want to play DOS games, this build is less problematic than many actual 386 or 486 builds (ask me how I know).

Can confirm. I have used my AthlonXP rig as a multi purpose DOS/Win9x/Win2K system in the past, and it worked great. With utilities like Throttle and being able to lower the CPU multiplier to 5x, it's extremely flexible in terms of speed. I have since converted that system to a Win9x Glide + A3D 2.0 rig, but that's mostly because I have more retro PCs at my disposal now.

Question: Is there any Socket 462 motherboard with at least one ISA slot that supports AthlonXP? The choice was limited even for Athlon-only MB (ABit KT7A, Biostar M7VKD, Epox EP-8KTA3 Pro, Gigabyte GA-7IXE4, to name a few I know); I can't find any consumer-grade MB (i.e. excluding specialized industrial MB) with ISA that supports AthlonXP.

Reply 121 of 135, by Joseph_Joestar

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dormcat wrote on 2023-05-22, 16:45:

Question: Is there any Socket 462 motherboard with at least one ISA slot that supports AthlonXP? The choice was limited even for Athlon-only MB (ABit KT7A, Biostar M7VKD, Epox EP-8KTA3 Pro, Gigabyte GA-7IXE4, to name a few I know); I can't find any consumer-grade MB (i.e. excluding specialized industrial MB) with ISA that supports AthlonXP.

Official support? Not sure. However, I've been running an AthlonXP 1700+ (Thoroughbred B) in my KT7A for years without any issues. I can even downclock it to 500 MHz for slowdown purposes, since that CPU is completely unlocked. And this is with the latest official BIOS.

That said, the KT7A sees it as an "Unknown CPU" which could be solved with a modded BIOS, but I didn't want to use that because it replaces the 5x multiplier with something else.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 122 of 135, by theiceman085

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is it a save thing to get a motherboard where a CPU is already included? Elitegroup K7S5A would be quite commonplace at a retro pc store near my city and one even already has Athlon xp 1700 included at according to a buddy at least. i will visit the store on Saturday to check it out for myself.

This motherboard has the Sis 735 chipset. Is the Sis 735 in the same ballpark for reliability similar to the already in this thread mentioned Via or intel chipset?

The Athlon xp 1700 itself seems to be a good CPU. It is on the slower side of the Athlon xp range but more than fast enough for my planned purposes.

The contemporary reviews where quite promising but i am still curious if any retro gamers here have a 2023 opinion on that chipset.

Reply 123 of 135, by Tetrium

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gen_angry wrote on 2023-05-22, 14:41:

This is kind of showcasing one issue with asking for 'general advice' with retro PC building. You'll get pulled everywhere with suggestions based on so many people's experiences.

In either case, any of the suggested builds over the past 6 pages should do you well. Lots of choice and options, it really just comes down to what's most available in your area/market.

Indeed. There's so many generations of hardware now , all with their own perks and their own oddities, limitations and character. It's difficult to understand everything right away if you start with basically zero real knowledge of retro pc hardware. Wiki won't give you this (but I do consider wiki a good way to start as stuff like the parts tables I find quite useful).
And there not being a straight-up single answer is probably a good thing, or else that optimal bit of hardware would probably end up where 3dfx is now, wanted and out of reach of many.
So there's lots of choice.

Reiterating one important point with an Athlon XP build, make sure your chosen supply has at least 30+ amps on the +5V rail (at minimum). They didn't do the 'shift CPU to 12v' thing like P4s did so using any modern supply on it will have issues (some boards did use the P4 header but they can be difficult to find, most S462 boards don't have one).

The PSU 5v thing is imo the most important drawback of sA. The limited CPU cooling solutions may be considered another (not all CPU HSFs that can mechanically fit, will be fit to be matched with all sA CPUs and it's not easy to create a DIY solution for this).

P4 and A64 are perhaps the easiest to get used to for someone who is new to retro pc computing as these are not only chronologically but also mechanically the closest resemblance to more modern hardware. Heck I even bought a CPU cooler for an LGA775 board this year brand new in the shop even though this board is already super old by todays standards. Many LGA775 and s939 boards have most of the things that modern motherboards still have, like PCIe (yes some will have AGP instead), SATA (beware certain VIA board revs though, one of the quirks of this gen hardware), (reasonably) modern PSU connectors, fan connectors, USB, the only thing missing are things like 4p fan connectors and M.2.
These are the generations of hardware that people who are pretty new to retro computing (but know to some extend how modern PC components work) will be most familiar with, yet can be used for win9x to a certain degree.

Systems based on these platforms may be a good starting point. Especially LGA775 should be reasonably widely available.

One other idea one might see as a fitting general advice is to go with an intermediate step first and first go with an older AM2-ish or early 115x rig using WinXP first (one with a real old fashioned BIOS instead of the UEFI stuff) if only just to get the hang of things (and because hardware of this era is probably also a bit more expendable). WinXP should be much easier to grasp compared to Win9x and is a good intermediate step between current gen and 9x-based Windows OS's.
Chances are you already have your older rig just sitting around doing nothing. Go ahead and (try to) install WinXP onto that. It's not as easy as it used to be (though I wouldn't call it hard. At worst it's a challenge because of SATA drivers or activation issues or something).

Or try using a virtual machine first if one is unsure of oneself.

I know most will probably not want to mess with an intermediate system. There is no one jacket that will fit everybody right away at the first try.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
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Reply 124 of 135, by theiceman085

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@Tetrium Thanks for your advice. Using a modern motherboard that resembles more modern hardware would be indeed a good starting point.

Luckily it was clear from the beginning to me that my first retro pc is going to be a rather complicated matter and I need to deep dive into the"rabbit hole" to find what I am looking for. Also, lots of trial and error is required to move forward.

I do not mind it. I find such things really interesting. I just hope that in the end, I will be the proud owner of a capable Win 98 gaming machine.

Thanks to your help I feel confident that I am going to find the right solution eventually.

Reply 125 of 135, by HanSolo

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For me one fun part is scanning through local ads and see if something interesting/cheap pops up. One approach might be simply getting what crosses the way for little money. Pretty much the only part that costs real money is the mainboard. All the rests can be reused later in case one finds a better board/other platform.

Skyscraper wrote on 2023-05-22, 15:42:

When it comes to boards with cheaper caps like for example Abit KT7...

Ah, so that's common knowledge. That explains why the caps on that model exploded on me 😁

Reply 126 of 135, by bogdanpaulb

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dormcat wrote on 2023-05-22, 16:45:
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-05-22, 14:21:
bloodem wrote on 2023-05-22, 14:02:

At this point, I have 27 x fully built PCs that span 4 decades and have tested hundreds of platforms in the past years, and yet I still pick the Athlon XP build every time I just want to easily play games without any hassle. Yes, even when I want to play DOS games, this build is less problematic than many actual 386 or 486 builds (ask me how I know).

Can confirm. I have used my AthlonXP rig as a multi purpose DOS/Win9x/Win2K system in the past, and it worked great. With utilities like Throttle and being able to lower the CPU multiplier to 5x, it's extremely flexible in terms of speed. I have since converted that system to a Win9x Glide + A3D 2.0 rig, but that's mostly because I have more retro PCs at my disposal now.

Question: Is there any Socket 462 motherboard with at least one ISA slot that supports AthlonXP? The choice was limited even for Athlon-only MB (ABit KT7A, Biostar M7VKD, Epox EP-8KTA3 Pro, Gigabyte GA-7IXE4, to name a few I know); I can't find any consumer-grade MB (i.e. excluding specialized industrial MB) with ISA that supports AthlonXP.

I have this motherboard: https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/pcpart … 1-35-8911-xx-xx, mine is from SUPER and works with a AXDA2400DKV3C with fsb 112 mhz(max that the board has, it's a kt133 not a kt 133A board) and with that bus speed it's reported as a Athlon XP2000+. The picture is with the board when i got it.

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Reply 127 of 135, by theiceman085

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HanSolo wrote on 2023-05-22, 21:04:

For me one fun part is scanning through local ads and see if something interesting/cheap pops up. One approach might be simply getting what crosses the way for little money. Pretty much the only part that costs real money is the mainboard. All the rests can be reused later in case one finds a better board/other platform.

Skyscraper wrote on 2023-05-22, 15:42:

When it comes to boards with cheaper caps like for example Abit KT7...

Ah, so that's common knowledge. That explains why the caps on that model exploded on me 😁

That's a funny thing for me as well. Checking out the ads and see if I can something interesting. I am especially checking out the mainboards at the moment. They are the most important and also the most expensive. Other parts are not that expensive and can be reused. The only exception to this rule is the potential vodoo2 card I might want to add but the main cards I am into GF4 or GF3 are not that expensive.

the mainboard on the other hand is really essential and it is really important to pick the right parts. I am studying a lot about mainboards now to make no mistake when picking up one.

Thanks to great posts here I have been already dragged in the right direction. I still need to learn more about the different chipsets not to pick one that has some compatibility issues. It is really a pity that some athlon cpu might have some problems with certain chipsets ( i hope I have not got the warnings in the posting above wrong). The price-performance ratio for the athlon cpu seems to be best and I am rather sure I will pick an Athlon chip set over a Pentium III or 4.

Reply 128 of 135, by HanSolo

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theiceman085 wrote on 2023-05-23, 17:49:

the mainboard on the other hand is really essential and it is really important to pick the right parts. I am studying a lot about mainboards now to make no mistake when picking up one.

There are no mistakes, only happy accidents 😀
I went the other route - buy everything that looks interesting for a good price. One never knows what it might be good for in the future 😀

Reply 129 of 135, by theiceman085

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HanSolo wrote on 2023-05-23, 22:14:
theiceman085 wrote on 2023-05-23, 17:49:

the mainboard on the other hand is really essential and it is really important to pick the right parts. I am studying a lot about mainboards now to make no mistake when picking up one.

There are no mistakes, only happy accidents 😀
I went the other route - buy everything that looks interesting for a good price. One never knows what it might be good for in the future 😀

That's only a good way to stuff. The price situation can be quite unpredictable so it is good thing to take any chance when you find some parts at a good price.

I might do the same concerning the motherboard. The price situation about the cpu I am interested in, (athlon xp or athlon 64) is quite stable so there is no need to rush. The price of the mainboards can change really fast.

I need to strike the iron as long as it is hot so to speak after I have figured out the right chipset in the motherboard that could cause some compability issues with one of the athlon cpu.

Reply 130 of 135, by theiceman085

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Do you guys have experience with motherboards from ECS? Are your impressions good or not so good? During my search for a suitable motherboard, I came across an interesting offer (maybe). Could purchase an ECS K7S5A motherboard which already has a CPU including the Athlon 1700xp one of the CPUs that has been recommended to me. So this could be a valid starting point.

Any ECS users here that could tell me more about the brand?

Reply 131 of 135, by HanSolo

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theiceman085 wrote on 2023-05-26, 18:30:

Do you guys have experience with motherboards from ECS? Are your impressions good or not so good? During my search for a suitable motherboard, I came across an interesting offer (maybe). Could purchase an ECS K7S5A motherboard which already has a CPU including the Athlon 1700xp one of the CPUs that has been recommended to me. So this could be a valid starting point.

Any ECS users here that could tell me more about the brand?

Those were low cost boards and I remember that I've seen two of them die because of bad caps only few years after purchase (and I mean back then when they were new!). So
I personally wouldn't buy them. But then again, all 20 year old boards might need a recap today 😀
ECS stands for 'Elitegroup Computer Systems'

Reply 132 of 135, by RandomStranger

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theiceman085 wrote on 2023-05-26, 18:30:

Do you guys have experience with motherboards from ECS? Are your impressions good or not so good? During my search for a suitable motherboard, I came across an interesting offer (maybe). Could purchase an ECS K7S5A motherboard which already has a CPU including the Athlon 1700xp one of the CPUs that has been recommended to me. So this could be a valid starting point.

Any ECS users here that could tell me more about the brand?

I had an ECS P4 VXAD+ Rev. 1.0 as a daily driver between 2004 and 2009. It was alright with a nice purple color PCB.
https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/ecs-p4vxad-plus-1-0
Never had any issues with it, though I only used it with XP, except when I sold it, I installed Windows 7 RC and it was unbearably slow with the 2.4GHz Celeron and 768MB RAM.

sreq.png retrogamer-s.png

Reply 133 of 135, by theiceman085

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HanSolo wrote on 2023-05-26, 22:58:
Those were low cost boards and I remember that I've seen two of them die because of bad caps only few years after purchase (and […]
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theiceman085 wrote on 2023-05-26, 18:30:

Do you guys have experience with motherboards from ECS? Are your impressions good or not so good? During my search for a suitable motherboard, I came across an interesting offer (maybe). Could purchase an ECS K7S5A motherboard which already has a CPU including the Athlon 1700xp one of the CPUs that has been recommended to me. So this could be a valid starting point.

Any ECS users here that could tell me more about the brand?

Those were low cost boards and I remember that I've seen two of them die because of bad caps only few years after purchase (and I mean back then when they were new!). So
I personally wouldn't buy them. But then again, all 20 year old boards might need a recap today 😀
ECS stands for 'Elitegroup Computer Systems'

Thanks for the info. Well these days the budget argument does not count any more because all old mbs are priced in similar way. The only reason it cought my eye was that it had already one of the cpu included that were recommend to me here. It would be easy way to kill two birds with one stone so to speak.

@RandomStranger thanks for sharing your impressions.

Reply 134 of 135, by Ydee

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The K7S5A was a surprisingly decent board, was built on a relatively powerful and modern SiS 735 chipset, offered the option to use old SDRAM modules when switching from an older platform and later to purchase a newer and more powerful DDR and made from ECS attracted mainly the price. If I remember correctly, the capacitors at VRM were G-Luxon brands and they liked to swell and leaked, so the need for an replacing is likely.
The next cons K7S5A was a simple BIOS, free of any overclocker possibilities - fortunately, the modders have taken over, and you'll find a few bios modifications online that make some light OC possible (the most famous are probably versions by Cheepoman?) http://www.ocworkbench.com/2002/ecs/k7s5abios/cheepobios.htm
Otherwise, it's a fairly stable and relatively powerful platform for Athlons and Durons, and I personally was happy with it in those years.
Review here: https://www.retrohardware-reviews.de/review-e … itegroup-k7s5a/

Reply 135 of 135, by theiceman085

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Ydee wrote on 2023-05-27, 07:43:
The K7S5A was a surprisingly decent board, was built on a relatively powerful and modern SiS 735 chipset, offered the option to […]
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The K7S5A was a surprisingly decent board, was built on a relatively powerful and modern SiS 735 chipset, offered the option to use old SDRAM modules when switching from an older platform and later to purchase a newer and more powerful DDR and made from ECS attracted mainly the price. If I remember correctly, the capacitors at VRM were G-Luxon brands and they liked to swell and leaked, so the need for an replacing is likely.
The next cons K7S5A was a simple BIOS, free of any overclocker possibilities - fortunately, the modders have taken over, and you'll find a few bios modifications online that make some light OC possible (the most famous are probably versions by Cheepoman?) http://www.ocworkbench.com/2002/ecs/k7s5abios/cheepobios.htm
Otherwise, it's a fairly stable and relatively powerful platform for Athlons and Durons, and I personally was happy with it in those years.
Review here: https://www.retrohardware-reviews.de/review-e … itegroup-k7s5a/

Thanks for posting further infos and the review. The chance that the capacitors may needs replacement is common risk when purchasing such old motherboards. That's something I would not really consider as strong negative aspects.

Or are there some mother board brands out there were the chances of the caps need some replacement or lower than with other brands?