VOGONS


First post, by wd_retro

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It's all quite clear as mud from searching through posts filled with technical details and caveats and "if you use this specific upscaler that may or may not ever turn up on Ebay..." and so on, so I'm looking for a more simplified distillation: in the Year of Our Lord 2023, what are the good LCD (and preferably, but not necessarily, LED) monitors for good old VGA MS-DOS gaming?

As promised, a useful definition of "Good" for my (and I suspect many DOS gamers') purposes:

1. Able to run 320x200 (720x400) mode software at the correct 70hz WITHOUT DROPPING FRAMES. This is criteria #1 and the most important hard must-have. Anything that frameskips @70hz is useless and can go get chucked out the window as far as I'm concerned.
2. Able to do the above at the correct 4:3 aspect ratio, preferably through setting / forcing a 4:3 in the monitor's own OSD, but also totally fine if it's through an easily available and reasonably priced upscaler (eg. Extron RGB 300 series) if needed. 4:3 displaying correctly is also a hard must-have. As above - can't do it? Then it's not an option; toss it out the window for all I care.
3. Actually available. Monitors that are unobtainium aren't very useful and it's frustrating to be recommended an option that isn't a realistic option. I mention this because it keeps happening; someone mentions a monitor that seems promising and it turns out to be something made way back in the 2010s for a short window and now, somehow, there are exactly zero of them available anywhere on earth.
4. Native resolution that hits exact 1:1 multiples for scaling the usual retro resolutions. 1920x1200, for example, would be ideal.
5. IPS panel, ideally. Anything is fine as long as it actually looks good, though.
6. Preferably LED, but again, if it works it works.
7. Black sidebars / letterboxing / whatever screenspace gets left black are absolutely not an issue for me, just as long as this thing does DOS (and Windows 3.1 I guess) right.
8. 24-27" is a great size. Smaller or larger aren't really issues and I'm more than happy to sacrifice ideal size for zero frameskips and no aspect distortion, but somewhere in this window is a plus.

I don't know if there's a consolidated list in a Google doc somewhere condensing these capabilities down, and I just haven't found it. If so, great. If not, I'm really looking for recommendations based on experiences from people who have actually tested some newer monitors for these DOS-friendly features first-hand. I don't want to go chasing CRTs, I don't have the space (and I already have a 17" Trinitron anyway, it looks great but I do NOT need more of 'em). I just want a nice LCD monitor that doesn't force any compromises in frameskipping or incorrect stretched out aspect ratios. I will buy an Extron RGB 300 (HDMI or DVI, whatever) / equivalently priced upscaler if needed to make a specific monitor work, not a problem.

Just looking for some help with specific "I recommend this one because it hits these points" advice, because I've spent hours reading through past threads without getting a clear enough picture to choose anything in particular with confidence that it won't be a huge disappointment, and I'm getting tired out from endless searching.

Reply 1 of 29, by Shponglefan

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In my experience with modern displays, the challenge becomes aspect ratio and scaling. The problem you may run into is aspect ratio preservation and scaling without image processing.

For example, I've got a modern ProArt display that runs @ 1920x1200 @ 75 Hz. Unfortunately it won't display 720x400 in 4:3 (it stretches it). It also won't display any non-native resolutions without image processing. So even though it could in theory do pixel perfect 800x600, it applies anti-aliasing and makes the resulting image look blurry.

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Reply 2 of 29, by The Serpent Rider

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Philips Brilliance 252B9. Can do 75Hz. Scaler is quite dumb on that one, so it can do only forced aspect ratios, which is perfect for DOS/Win9x. Cons? 6-bit+FRC panel.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 3 of 29, by wd_retro

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Shponglefan wrote on 2023-03-11, 21:05:

For example, I've got a modern ProArt display that runs @ 1920x1200 @ 75 Hz. Unfortunately it won't display 720x400 in 4:3 (it stretches it). It also won't display any non-native resolutions without image processing. So even though it could in theory do pixel perfect 800x600, it applies anti-aliasing and makes the resulting image look blurry.

Unfortunate that it doesn't quite work out of the box, but still interesting if the problems can be overcome with an Extron upscaler. Do you have a maker and model number for this ProArt display? I might be interested in investigating that one.

Reply 4 of 29, by Shponglefan

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wd_retro wrote on 2023-03-11, 21:39:
Shponglefan wrote on 2023-03-11, 21:05:

For example, I've got a modern ProArt display that runs @ 1920x1200 @ 75 Hz. Unfortunately it won't display 720x400 in 4:3 (it stretches it). It also won't display any non-native resolutions without image processing. So even though it could in theory do pixel perfect 800x600, it applies anti-aliasing and makes the resulting image look blurry.

Unfortunate that it doesn't quite work out of the box, but still interesting if the problems can be overcome with an Extron upscaler. Do you have a maker and model number for this ProArt display? I might be interested in investigating that one.

It's the Asus ProArt PA248QV (24").

I've thought about getting a scaler myself to try, just haven't gotten around to it yet. From researching scalers, OSSC seems like the best bet.

From what I've read about the Extrons is that they add latency and don't necessarily result in a crisp image.

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Reply 5 of 29, by wd_retro

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-03-11, 21:29:

Philips Brilliance 252B9. Can do 75Hz. Scaler is quite dumb on that one, so it can do only forced aspect ratios, which is perfect for DOS/Win9x. Cons? 6-bit+FRC panel.

I'm interested in that one, but it doesn't seem to be easy to get. The only ones on Ebay are coming from Italy and are pretty expensive.
Still, I'll keep it in mind.

Reply 6 of 29, by Shponglefan

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-03-11, 21:29:

Philips Brilliance 252B9.

Can these still be purchased anywhere? A quick search on Amazon and Ebay and the only ones for sale are from Italy.

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486 DX-33 with 5 sound cards

Reply 7 of 29, by Pierre32

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I'm yet to see a flat panel that will properly integer scale low resolutions without softening the picture. So you will need a scaler, and the good news when adding a scaler is that the capabilities of the monitor become less critical. You can just tick the basic boxes like size, resolution, refresh rate, panel type.

Echoing Shponglefan's statement on the Extrons - they will be disappointing if you want perfectly crisp scaling. I think the OSSC is the only realistic option for this. Rabbit hole: What are the best Vga to hdmi scalers or peripherals for MS-DOS games ?

Here's a project that could be the next giant leap in pairing DOS with modern panels, but it's still in development: CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000

Reply 8 of 29, by wd_retro

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Pierre32 wrote on 2023-03-11, 22:04:

I'm yet to see a flat panel that will properly integer scale low resolutions without softening the picture. So you will need a scaler, and the good news when adding a scaler is that the capabilities of the monitor become less critical. You can just tick the basic boxes like size, resolution, refresh rate, panel type.

Echoing Shponglefan's statement on the Extrons - they will be disappointing if you want perfectly crisp scaling. I think the OSSC is the only realistic option for this. Rabbit hole: What are the best Vga to hdmi scalers or peripherals for MS-DOS games ?

Here's a project that could be the next giant leap in pairing DOS with modern panels, but it's still in development: CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000

I'm actually fine with making some compromises on a little bit of softness, as long as pixels are still sort of distinct and the image isn't so blurry that they become blobs of fuzz (which I've definitely seen on some LCD monitors with bad scaling). I think I can live with the output quality from an Extron upscaler, judging by screenshots I've seen from people using them. So that's helpful. Any ideas for monitors that do well with an upscaler and don't skip frames at 70hz+?

Reply 9 of 29, by Horun

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Did you look thru this topic: Widescreen monitors and 4:3 aspect ratio compatibility thread
Widescreen monitors and 4:3 aspect ratio compatibility thread
There is some very good info in it !

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 10 of 29, by mihai

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This is a niche monitor, good for retro gaming, not daily use, IMO:

Philips 152B1 - https://www.philips.co.uk/c-p/152B1TFL_00/ope … -screen-monitor

Pros:
- 15'', 1024x768 (4:3), 75Hz.
- LED
- VGA, DVI, HDMI, DP.
- available new (in EU at least).

Cons
- 15'' (too small for some)
- expensive - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Open-frame-touch-scr … 0/dp/B0963HCKBJ
- needs a mount.

There should be similar models from Iiyama.

Reply 11 of 29, by The Serpent Rider

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Pros:
- 15'', 1024x768 (4:3), 75Hz.

1024x768 is not a enough to scale regular DOS modes good enough.

EDIT:
My NEC 1990SXi review.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 12 of 29, by mihai

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I have an older 15'' NEC monitor, also 1024x768. The scaling is good enough, thus I can't imagine newer monitors being worse. If you are thinking about integer scaling - I understand such scaling works on Windows 7+ with modern GPUs.

I like the NEC monitor - the hardware calibration is a huge plus in my book, if there are compatible colorimeters to write directly to the LUT.

Reply 13 of 29, by Shagittarius

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Here is a list of modern(ish) monitors that support 15khz. It's Amiga-centric but you may find some of the data useful.

http://15khz.wikidot.com

Reply 14 of 29, by Shponglefan

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Something that might be worth keeping an eye on is the results of this Kickstarter for a new modular LCD monitor from Checkmate: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/checkmat … tion_successful

They will have multiple panel options. The couple basic IPS and TN panels aren't anything special and cap out at 60 Hz I believe. But there is an Arcooda panel with support for 15khz/31khz and low latency. Whether it can do 70 Hz vertical refresh remains to be seen.

More details on that panel should hopefully come in a couple months, with the monitors themselves slated for delivery later this year.

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Reply 15 of 29, by Pierre32

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Shagittarius wrote on 2023-03-12, 23:20:

Here is a list of modern(ish) monitors that support 15khz. It's Amiga-centric but you may find some of the data useful.

http://15khz.wikidot.com

I've always been curious about why so many entries here list no 15khz RGB support. Why are they on the list?

Reply 16 of 29, by Shagittarius

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Pierre32 wrote on 2023-03-12, 23:37:
Shagittarius wrote on 2023-03-12, 23:20:

Here is a list of modern(ish) monitors that support 15khz. It's Amiga-centric but you may find some of the data useful.

http://15khz.wikidot.com

I've always been curious about why so many entries here list no 15khz RGB support. Why are they on the list?

I guess just to leave no doubt it wont work instead of wondering if it wasn't tested.

Reply 18 of 29, by The Serpent Rider

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mihai wrote on 2023-03-12, 22:07:

If you are thinking about integer scaling - I understand such scaling works on Windows 7+ with modern GPUs.

No, I'm not talking about integer scaling. With bicubic, lancoz, etc soft scalers you can go with 0.5 pixel intervals and still get very decent result. So if you have 2.5x scale for example, every third pixel will have mixed color between second and fourth pixel, which is still good.

1024x768 panel can do 512x384 (uncommon resolution) decently and that's it. 320x200(240)? 3.2x scale. 640x480? 1.6x. Pixels are spread unevenly. Can't get good result with that, especially on small patterns like fences.
Starting with 1280x960, interpolation can get a bunch of good results for common DOS and early Win9x resolutions - 320x200, 320x240, 320x400, 320x480, 640x480 and also 512x384.

Last edited by The Serpent Rider on 2023-03-13, 10:41. Edited 2 times in total.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 19 of 29, by Horun

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I can agree with that. My very well used Sammy 930B (not the best for DOS stuff but works OK) has 1280x960, 640x350@70, 720x400@70, etc as native built in res's. Not a great DOS LCD/LED but useable.
added the "Able to run 320x200 (720x400) mode software at the correct 70hz WITHOUT DROPPING FRAMES. " part is more complex because it also relies on what the Video card does... if a newer AGP/PCIe that is a diff story...
BTW: that link I posted to earlier is a very good source to look over dozens of tested newer widescreen monitors with 4:3 selectable. Asus VS228H can be found reasonable and do support the res's and have a 4:3 mode. Also AOC I2269VW is 4:3

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun