What an utter knob you are.

dh4rm4 wrote:

What an utter knob you are.

And of course, "what an utter knob you are" makes a reaaaaaaally sound and convincing argument.

Here's my points that you sooooo conveniently ignore, by the way:

(1) there are good arguments favoring old games over new games, there are also bad arguments favoring old games over new games. Just because an article uses inaccurate examples of "bad new games" (like Bioshock, which is actually a good new game) doesn't mean that there are no valid arguments favoring old games.

(2) Niche gamers does exist. In fact, niche market does exist in almost every industry including movies and music.

(3) We live in free market, but we also live in free speech. Thus, consumers are fully entitled to express dislike about certain products or trends.

But did you address one of those points above? NOOOOOO!!! You conveniently sidestep the points, constantly move the goalpost, and spew rethoric from your bodily orifice.

And you whine that people treat you like an idiot. "Stop treating me like I'm stupid, <insert random poster here>! Waaah, waaaah!!!!" dh4rm4 whines in 3... 2... 1....

There's Teacher Mode and Belligerent Mode followed closely by Being A Prick mode.

dh4rm4 wrote:

There's Teacher Mode and Belligerent Mode followed closely by Being A Prick mode.

No, idiot. Those are the points you have conveniently ignored because you're too busy making personal attacks, false accussation, and rethorics on the way.

But.... it's quite amusing to see that, after you just fail to rebuke my points, your last defense is nothing but lame-ass, completely insubstantial one-liner. It's like watching a fallen boxer still trying to spew out tough words after being knocked out. 🤣

To be fair, you could be a nice person IRL, but on the internet, you're really a pain in the ass and a dishonest debater. And I won't be surprised if you keep whining "don't treat me like I'm stupid" for the 10000000th time despite you insist to act like one. G'day!

I'm not dishonest debater. The thread speaks for itself. You're just rolling out the same tired ideas round after round and you never ever concede any point.

You're so deluded KAN. It fits with your personality type well.

guys act civil.
Why not invent a new word that covers the gamers with specific interests while not having the bad associations usually associated with snob.

I don't feel another word would suit? 😀 We have already agreed that their interests are niche, I just don't agree that the industry is doing the wrong thing in leaving them as niche interests. By all regards KAN thinks that industry shouldn't take the safe bets and should instead make games that he would enjoy.

It reminds me of the Simpsons Episode where Homer is asked to design a car.

Maybe KAN could find other more creative ways to swear? 🤣

Thanks Qbix, this reading session was getting a little distracting there. Lets all remain civil, and try to limit personal attacks, ok?

I'm not sure how I would be defined as a gamer. I fail to see how I could possibly be considered a niche gamer. Looking through my games right now, I have such a wide variety of games, that it just cannot apply. About the only genre of games I don't have are sports games, and I've never been a big fan of sports games anyways. To me, the main attraction of sporting activities is physical skill. This requires more than pushing buttons at the right time, in the right sequence. But that's just me, everyone else is welcome to them, if that's their cup of tea.

I also don't fall into the category of power gamer. I buy a lot of games, and usually play them all the way through at least once. Sometimes I'll play them through a few times. Sometimes, I never finish them (though in many of those cases I try again after a while.) In very rare cases, I will play a game over and over etc.... In only 2 games have I spent excessive time searching out all the easter eggs, extra points, bonuses, etc... Those were Thief 1 and Thief 2, in case you're interested. So, by dh4's criteria, I am not quite a power gamer either.

I hate to admit it, but I sink quite a bit of money into games. I can honestly say, that I probably tried a rather large slice of the gaming market all through the years. With the TI-99, the PET, the TRS-80, Commodore 64 (and 128,) Apple II, Atari, Nintendo, Super Nintendo, PC, and Amiga. Even now, I have a C128, A2000, A4000, XBox, PS2, Atari 2600, TI-99/4a, 2 PC's (WinXP & Win98,) Nintendo, Super Nintendo, XBox 360, and Nintendo Wii. I'll probably even have a PS3 when I get my tax return. For all of these systems I have a fairly wide assortment of games. RPG, Action, Scrollers, FPS, Adventure, you name it (except sports.)

Because of this, I feel confident that the trend I have noticed actually does exist. Back in the day, there were a higher percentage of games that I found innovative and interesting. Now, these games were innovative and interesting THEN. If I bought a game today that was identical to any of those, I would be greatly disappointed in it. That's just because the technology has grown, and I've grown with it. On the other hand, there are many games coming out today, that if I bought back then I would consider crap (even with the nice pictures, animations, sounds, etc...) I would have been shocked at the quality of the "bells & whistles," but I would still have considered them crap.

Why are they crap? Because there was almost no thought whatsoever given to the story line. Oh, I need to go out and kill all these <aliens, zombies, nazis, animals, whatever.> Why do I need to kill all these <whatevers?> Um, well, um, lets see, it's because, um, well, you are just being difficult, grow up already....

Now, there are good games coming out today (I really love Age of Conan for example.) Also, I've been salivating over The Witcher as well (trying to arrange to get it shipped from over seas.) But among these good games there are a majority of games that just don't make the grade. So, I don't buy those games. I do, like dh4 suggested, vote with my wallet. However, I also feel well within my rights to comment on the situation as well.

The problem is, that it is getting harder and harder to find modern games that are actually good. I spend hours in the game stores, online, and at friends houses looking for games that are good. Even with my wide variety of tastes, the games just aren't there.

Now, lets get down to brass tacks. Where does the problem really lie? As has been pointed out already, it doesn't really lie with the developers, or at least not completely. It lies with people, like some here, who don't really care about plot, story, depth. They just want their pretty little bells & whistles. They don't really care that they are playing the same games over and over. They just blindly do what the game producers tell them, and shell out their money for endless upgrades (NFL 97, NFL 98, NFL 02, etc....) They just trust the producers who tell them that this new game is totally new and never seen before. Never realising that they played the exact same game a year ago (it just had different graphics and sounds.)

THAT is where the problem lies, really. There are too many sheep out there who don't care if something is new or not. An original idea would probably make their heads explode anyways. They don't want to think, they just want to mash keys or buttons and see fancy exploding bodies. So, this is what the game producers give them. It's expensive to hire story writers to come up with a complex and intriguing plot. It's much cheaper just to dust off an old story an plug it into a new engine.

I would like to make something else clear here as well. I don't want to play the old games. Ok, some of them I do want to play, but not for purposes of this discussion. GOG is fine, but in most cases, the older games I want to play, I already have. What I want is NEW games that are actually new. I want new games that make me think. I want new games that surprise me (with story, not graphics & sounds.) I still see new movies that surprise me, I'm still finding books that I find totally intriguing, I'm even finding new music that impresses me. Why am I treated like a pariah, just because I want the same innovation from the games I'm expected to buy?

I'd like to say point out that my simple answer does not imply that I'm ignoring what you've said, nor does it mean that I don't care as much you might about the state of gaming but I just don't agree at all. There is no downward trend going on. Games are just as varied in quality with just as small a percentage of real quality games as they always were. The only reason I think it feels like the the overall quality has diminished is that there are so many more games being made these days and so many more systems available so the effects both positive and negative are magnified.

The truth is that there were always fewer good games than bad and that will never really change because personal taste is an extremely subjective experience.

Regarding sports games, as a fan of NBA games myself, I think there is a difference in that genre. I had nearly all the NBA Live games up until 2007. But the only one I played and played and played was 2005. 2007 was crap. When 2k9 came out for PC I gave it a shot and the difference was much more than graphical. There was a genuine feel to the game that was much more realistic and true to life than any other sports game I've ever played.

However, that's a sports game. There's little room for imagination there--we're trying to replicate an experience (watching an NBA game) while introducing interactivity to it.

When it comes to other genres, the sky is the limit on creativity. I find it very difficult to find games that I like nowadays. Now, before you go off on me dh4, I'll be the first to admit that I probably have changed as a gamer and might not have the patience to learn a game like I once did. And maybe the industry has changed as a result of gamers like me. However, that doesn't change the fact that I feel it was easier to find good games when I was a kid vs. now.

FeedingDragon wrote:

The problem is, that it is getting harder and harder to find modern games that are actually good. I spend hours in the game stores, online, and at friends houses looking for games that are good. Even with my wide variety of tastes, the games just aren't there.

I think the problem is more that you (and most of us) are just tired of seeing gaming evolve in ways we would rather it not. We want new, fresh ideas (at least our idea of such) and games that are ultra-refined versions of oldie favs (according to our opinions again). Pile on nostalgia for all those old games we've enjoyed and now somewhat incorrectly love (nostalgia) and you get a mountain of expectations that can't be met. And you also have to realize that as we get older we get less flexible and experimental in our interests. Kids will have fun with almost anything, but we adults aren't like that.

There have been many, many innovations in gaming even if it's more fun and comforting to pretend they don't exist and that people can't possibly like them. The dancing party games, guitar hero, online team-based FPS games and MMOs are totally not my thing. I would rather have new space shooters and sci-fi simulations, more open-world single-player RPGs with tons of freedom, but apparently that's not what what sells. I'm not really a "social" gamer. I like to escape from the world in games, not join in with some online community of anonymous folks. We can all bitch about the gaming industry from our own retro angle.. 😉

Still, there are games out there that I have fun with. The market has a lot of variety to it. We can't control and have exactly what we want, but there are still choices and new gaming experiences out there worth checking out. I've been playing Penumbra Black Plague and am really impressed with it. What a great little relatively unknown game. And you have gems like STALKER, Witcher, Sins of a Solar Empire, and even the new Fallout. These are awesome games even if they aren't exactly what I'd like to see.

dh4rm4 wrote:

By all regards KAN thinks that industry shouldn't take the safe bets and should instead make games that he would enjoy.

Yawn. Another lie.

KAN wrote:

Mind you, game publishers are completely entitled to create another clone or sequel that generates a lot of money. After all, they have all the rights to maximize their profits. However, people are also entitled to express their dislike as well.

It's all about fair game: the industry is free to take the safe bets, but there is nothing wrong either about the consumers expressing their dissatisfaction.

dh4rm4 wrote:

I'm not dishonest debater.

Riiiiiiight, right. Of course. Don't worry about that.

dh4rm4 wrote:

You're just rolling out the same tired ideas round after round and you never ever concede any point.

Nope. I only roll the ideas to you, because you just keep ignoring them and bringing irrelevant shits to the discussion, apparently because you're unable to rebuke them while unwilling to concede. Below is an example:

dh4rm4 wrote:

You're so deluded KAN. It fits with your personality type well.

And of course, it's more convenient to write fiction about your opponent's personality instead of addressing his points.

Remember: we were all discussing about GAMES, but you suddenly had the pressing and urgent need to discuss about ME. Why, I'm flattered! 🤣

Both of you need to stop shitting all over perfectly good threads or I am going to ban you. I am tired of it.