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Reply 2920 of 5848, by RandomStranger

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badmojo wrote on 2021-04-15, 05:17:
RandomStranger wrote on 2021-04-15, 04:59:

There is nothing wrong with the save system so there is nothing to fix.

.../mods/1

Just because a lot of players suck and games and/or like to save scum doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the save system. KDC's system is a good way to mitigate save scumming. A much bigger problem in role playing games than that you can't save any time anywhere early game (after a couple of hours you'll have savior's schnaps' by the dozens if you want).

RandomStranger wrote on 2021-04-05, 19:28:
pixel_workbench wrote on 2021-04-05, 19:12:

But from a different perspective, the games are becoming more accessible to someone that doesn't want to spend hours a day min-maxing every moment of one game.

This is an interesting thing because for a while now I have the suspicion that a large number of player doesn't really care about games. They don't really want to get immersed, they don't really want to spend time with them, they just want to get done with them. They on their first (and often only) playthrough hit up a guide to build the "perfect" character and follow that guide to pick the options that ensures the desired outcome (or save scum), and games assisst. The player can experience all the content on one playthrough, everything is marked on minimaps and the only thing the player have to pay attention to is following the quest marker in a tube. Some games aren't even playable without minimap and quest markers because there are no other ways to find out where to go and what to do. There are no in-game clues or NPCs to tell things, they just "mark it on your map" or the player character just finds out based on next to no info where to go with pinpoint accuracy (a quest marker appears not just for the general area, but the specific thing the player has to interact with).

Last edited by RandomStranger on 2021-04-15, 05:32. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 2921 of 5848, by Cyberdyne

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Strange, I posted, and it immediately got deleted. Listed some games... and was it about the alcohol?

I am aroused about any X86 motherboard that has full functional ISA slot. I think i have problem. Not really into that original (Turbo) XT,286,386 and CGA/EGA stuff. So just a DOS nut.

Reply 2922 of 5848, by clueless1

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RandomStranger wrote on 2021-04-15, 05:22:

Just because a lot of players suck and games and/or like to save scum doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the save system. KDC's system is a good way to mitigate save scumming. A much bigger problem in role playing games than that you can't save any time anywhere early game (after a couple of hours you'll have savior's schnaps' by the dozens if you want).

This is an interesting thing because for a while now I have the suspicion that a large number of player doesn't really care about games. They don't really want to get immersed, they don't really want to spend time with them, they just want to get done with them. They on their first (and often only) playthrough hit up a guide to build the "perfect" character and follow that guide to pick the options that ensures the desired outcome (or save scum), and games assisst. The player can experience all the content on one playthrough, everything is marked on minimaps and the only thing the player have to pay attention to is following the quest marker in a tube. Some games aren't even playable without minimap and quest markers because there are no other ways to find out where to go and what to do. There are no in-game clues or NPCs to tell things, they just "mark it on your map" or the player character just finds out based on next to no info where to go with pinpoint accuracy (a quest marker appears not just for the general area, but the specific thing the player has to interact with).

Sounds like you are trying to describe me and other middle-aged, married people with families, as a gamer. Although I don't get the statement "don't really care about games." Why would somebody bother playing lengthy games if they didn't care about them? I would think if it took months to get through a game because of their time limitations, that would show they "cared more." Maybe they have a life, spouse, children, they are middle aged, have lots of responsibilities, and like to game as a form of entertainment or escape from real life. Trouble is, they might only have 15-30 minutes in a day, with maybe an hour or two a day on the weekends. That doesn't mean they don't want to get immersed, but there is a conflict in how much time they can pour in vs how much time they have and how long it would take to pour that time in.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
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Reply 2923 of 5848, by RandomStranger

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clueless1 wrote on 2021-04-15, 10:38:

Sounds like you are trying to describe me and other middle-aged, married people with families, as a gamer. Although I don't get the statement "don't really care about games." Why would somebody bother playing lengthy games if they didn't care about them? I would think if it took months to get through a game because of their time limitations, that would show they "cared more." Maybe they have a life, spouse, children, they are middle aged, have lots of responsibilities, and like to game as a form of entertainment or escape from real life. Trouble is, they might only have 15-30 minutes in a day, with maybe an hour or two a day on the weekends. That doesn't mean they don't want to get immersed, but there is a conflict in how much time they can pour in vs how much time they have and how long it would take to pour that time in.

That's a good excuse for those middle aged people, though I firmly hold the opinion that not everything is for everyone and accessibility isn't always a good thing. It's also takes me often over 3 or 4 months to get through a longer game (according to achievements KDC took me from June 20 to October 11 and it wasn't a 100% playthrough and that was something I finished quickly), but I still don't want them to be dumbed down and have their replay value damaged. I also like to own up to my decisions and mistakes in an RPG and don't save scum when I don't get the preferred outcome.

But the main thing I was pointing out that mostly young gamers do this. They are the ones who are relentlessly impatient and while completely willing to put 3000 hours into Skyrim (which is btw one of the worst RPGs I've ever played), but actually earning something through overcoming challenges is sacrilege to them. They want immediate gratification and power fantasy.

And even if you want to point out that challenging games had a comeback in the from of souls-likes, they aren't really and never have been all that popular. All the Souls series from Demon's Souls to Bloodborne combined sold about as much as Skyrim or Fallout 4 alone and that's probably the most popular difficult game while decent CRPGs are considered succcessful if over their lifetime match the sales of the first week of an AAA juggernaut.

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Reply 2924 of 5848, by appiah4

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A game being challenging and a game wasting my time are two different things. Limited save states can make sense in some game types and executions but in my experience they are terrible in 90% of the cases. They are mostly the relic of a time when save space was a constraint.

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Reply 2925 of 5848, by xcomcmdr

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ISHAR did it in the 90s. You had to pay gold in order to save !
I didn't fire it up again until save states came along.
The game wasn't good enough to endure that torture.

Resident Evil did it too. Ink ribbons were in limited supply. I loved it and (re)played all of them over and over.

Reply 2926 of 5848, by Shreddoc

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RandomStranger wrote on 2021-04-15, 11:32:

That's a good excuse for those middle aged people, though I firmly hold the opinion that not everything is for everyone and accessibility isn't always a good thing. It's also takes me often over 3 or 4 months to get through a longer game (according to achievements KDC took me from June 20 to October 11 and it wasn't a 100% playthrough and that was something I finished quickly), but I still don't want them to be dumbed down and have their replay value damaged. I also like to own up to my decisions and mistakes in an RPG and don't save scum when I don't get the preferred outcome.

But the main thing I was pointing out that mostly young gamers do this. They are the ones who are relentlessly impatient and while completely willing to put 3000 hours into Skyrim (which is btw one of the worst RPGs I've ever played), but actually earning something through overcoming challenges is sacrilege to them. They want immediate gratification and power fantasy.

And even if you want to point out that challenging games had a comeback in the from of souls-likes, they aren't really and never have been all that popular. All the Souls series from Demon's Souls to Bloodborne combined sold about as much as Skyrim or Fallout 4 alone and that's probably the most popular difficult game while decent CRPGs are considered succcessful if over their lifetime match the sales of the first week of an AAA juggernaut.

On this topic, I have noticed there are two distinct types of people.

The first being those who see the rules or framework of a game as being fluid and changeable upon the whim of the player, with the overriding motivation being "provided it's fun, I'm happy!".

The second being those who adhere hard to the game's originally-given rules and see any deviation as a kind of betrayal, with "to prove myself against the challenge!" being of primary importance.

Not to say that the first type has no ambition, or that the second type has no fun, but merely to define two polar ends of the Mod vs Original philosophy. The same thing exists outside computing too, e.g. a bit of casual ball sport played with your friends will soon show you who are the happy-go-lucky let's-change-the-rules-spontaneously people, and who are the hell-no!-over-my-dead-body people of the group.

Wars have started over less! ha ha...

Reply 2927 of 5848, by newtmonkey

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Day of the Tentacle
This is one I played extensively back in the day (using a pirated copy from my friend... sorry giant megacorporation!) but never completed. I'm not really in the mood for any complicated RPGs, and was getting annoyed with both Skyrim and The Witcher 3, so I decided that now is the time to play this.

First off, I didn't like the Saturday cartoon look back then, and still don't now. Maniac Mansion had a cartoony look to it considering the limitations of EGA, but I remember even back then being disappointed that the series went from "B horror movie you rented that one time because nothing else looked good" to "Chuck Jones Looney Toons." Having said that, the animation for the characters is really exceptional.

What's more impressive is the voice acting. Wow! This is some high-quality stuff, and I think back in 1993 or whatever I didn't really realize it; it just seemed natural to me that voice acting in a game should be just as good as in a cartoon. Of course, that didn't need to be the case—witness the years and years of horrible voice acting that plagued games afterwards.

As for the game itself, it's fun. Perhaps I remember more than I think, but the puzzles seem a lot more logical than the insanity in Sam & Max, even if much of the early game is just gathering every single thing that's not nailed down, without any real goal at first. I also like that you quickly get access to all three characters and can work on several puzzles at once, allowing you to still make progress even if you get stuck on a certain puzzle.

All in all, I'm enjoying it. I normally turn voice acting off when I play a game, but I'm definitely leaving it on for this one (actually, I don't think you have a choice in the talkie version haha).

Crystal Caves
Finished a few more levels, and I'm now four levels away from the end of episode one. This is just a great game, the level design is simply brilliant and the fact that you can select levels freely from a hub minimizes frustration. It's no wonder that this, out of all the Apogee games, was the one to get a modern "HD" remaster. Awesome game.

Jill of the Jungle
Finally completed episode one! This is one I remember playing back in the day, but I never got very far (I definitely preferred the Apogee platformers, even if they were just EGA). I was very surprised to find that this game is actually really damned good! It appears to be a bit of "style over substance" at first, but the level design is really fantastic in this game. The excellent soundtrack doesn't hurt either!

Last edited by newtmonkey on 2023-10-29, 15:54. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 2928 of 5848, by clueless1

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Shreddoc wrote on 2021-04-15, 13:57:
On this topic, I have noticed there are two distinct types of people. […]
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On this topic, I have noticed there are two distinct types of people.

The first being those who see the rules or framework of a game as being fluid and changeable upon the whim of the player, with the overriding motivation being "provided it's fun, I'm happy!".

The second being those who adhere hard to the game's originally-given rules and see any deviation as a kind of betrayal, with "to prove myself against the challenge!" being of primary importance.

Not to say that the first type has no ambition, or that the second type has no fun, but merely to define two polar ends of the Mod vs Original philosophy. The same thing exists outside computing too, e.g. a bit of casual ball sport played with your friends will soon show you who are the happy-go-lucky let's-change-the-rules-spontaneously people, and who are the hell-no!-over-my-dead-body people of the group.

Wars have started over less! ha ha...

Funny, I guess I'm somewhere in between. I'm definitely in the "As long as it's fun, I'm happy." camp, but I also am very reluctant to use mods. I looked at the mods for KCD and decided against using any of them. I am more likely to use mods when it's an old game that I'm playing on a modern system, to add quality of life features or bump up graphical fidelity.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 2929 of 5848, by newtmonkey

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This doesn't really count as "playing" per se, but I spent a couple hours tonight getting a few games working on my DOS gaming PC.

Ultima II: The Revenge of the Enchantress
The GOG version plays fine as is, but you DEFINITELY want to install the fan-made patch for this one, even if just to disable the awful autosave (it will often autosave you into a dead end if you aren't careful!). I could not get the latest version of the patch to work no matter what I tried, so I just started going backwards in time and eventually found a patch that works on actual hardware (1.1). Runs fine now, though I'm not sure I even want to play this complete mess of a game. At one point I wanted to play it "straight" (no hints, no stealing, exploring the dungeons even though you don't need to), but you can apparently complete this broken garbage game in just a few hours if you game the system... might be worth doing just to complete the early Ultimas.

Ultima III: Exodus
I had been playing the NES version of this one, partly due to nostalgia but also partly due to the fact that it's actually a very decent port. However, it's very slow to play; in a game like Ultima III that requires some amount of grinding for gold, you don't want to sit there watching the characters moving slowly over the world.

The GOG release works fine as is, but I wanted to install the fan-made patch, which adds EGA (or even VGA, or even composite CGA!) graphics, a frame limiter, some gameplay tweaks to bring it closer to the Apple II/C64 versions of the game, PC speaker sound effects fixes on fast computers, and glorious General MIDI music. However, I could not get the patch to run on my actual DOS machine... it turns out that the PC speaker SFX fix seems to break compatibility with actual hardware, and luckily you can selectively turn this one fix off. After that, it was smooth sailing.

Ultima VI
I copied my DOSBOX install over to my DOS PC but it would hang (black screen) whenever I started the game. I feared it might be some IRQ conflict, but a clean install from the GOG version fixed it right up! To be honest though, I'm not sure whether I prefer the Adlib or MT-32 soundtrack for this one. Sometimes, the MT-32 soundtrack sounds amazing—the intro, the character creation screen, the second intro song (but NOT the title screen). I know the game was composed for Adlib and then converted to MT-32. I won't be playing this one for a LONG time (still have Ultima 2, 3, and 5 to play through!), so I'll have plenty of time to decide which soundtrack to use.

Reply 2930 of 5848, by creepingnet

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newtmonkey wrote on 2021-04-16, 18:29:
This doesn't really count as "playing" per se, but I spent a couple hours tonight getting a few games working on my DOS gaming P […]
Show full quote

This doesn't really count as "playing" per se, but I spent a couple hours tonight getting a few games working on my DOS gaming PC.

Ultima II: The Revenge of the Enchantress
The GOG version plays fine as is, but you DEFINITELY want to install the fan-made patch for this one, even if just to disable the awful autosave (it will often autosave you into a dead end if you aren't careful!). I could not get the latest version of the patch to work no matter what I tried, so I just started going backwards in time and eventually found a patch that works on actual hardware (1.1). Runs fine now, though I'm not sure I even want to play this complete mess of a game. At one point I wanted to play it "straight" (no hints, no stealing, exploring the dungeons even though you don't need to), but you can apparently complete this broken garbage game in just a few hours if you game the system... might be worth doing just to complete the early Ultimas.

Ultima III: Exodus
I had been playing the NES version of this one, partly due to nostalgia but also partly due to the fact that it's actually a very decent port (I find the graphics charming and the music to be quite different from the computer versions, but very moody in its own right). However, even though it's a decent enough port, it's very slow to play; in a game like Ultima III that requires some amount of grinding for gold, you don't want to sit there watching the characters moving slowly over the world.

The GOG release works fine as is, but I wanted to install the fan-made patch, which adds EGA (or even VGA, or even composite CGA!) graphics, a frame limiter, some gameplay tweaks to bring it closer to the Apple II/C64 versions of the game, PC speaker sound effects fixes on fast computers, and glorious General MIDI music. However, I could not get the patch to run on my actual DOS machine... it turns out that the PC speaker SFX fix seems to break compatibility with actual hardware, and luckily you can selectively turn this one fix off. After that, it was smooth sailing.

Ultima VI
I copied my DOSBOX install over to my DOS PC but it would hang (black screen) whenever I started the game. I feared it might be some IRQ conflict, but a clean install from the GOG version fixed it right up! To be honest though, I'm not sure whether I prefer the Adlib or MT-32 soundtrack for this one. Sometimes, the MT-32 soundtrack sounds amazing—the intro, the character creation screen, the second intro song (but NOT the title screen). I know the game was composed for Adlib and then converted to MT-32. I won't be playing this one for a LONG time (still have Ultima 2, 3, and 5 to play through!), so I'll have plenty of time to decide which soundtrack to use.

Ah, good old Ultima, one of my favorite series. There's a site called Ultima The Reconstruction that has lots of fan mods and patches for these games, including a VGA patch for Ultima IV, OPL Support for Ultima V, and so on. And IT-HE.org for all sorts of Ulitma VI hack utilities including an ability to have multiple games going at once (U6MGR).

Cool bit about the NES version of Ultima III - the soundtrack was actually recorded by a Japanese pop-star and was released as a full album. It also seems there was a Japanese Anime cartoon made for it too as discovered after a Kobe earthquake sometime in the 90's....I friggin love the music in that version, so much I almost wish there was an Adlib or Tandy patch for the PC version with that music on it.

- https://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Exodus_%22Ultima_Mix%22_CD - Wiki Article
- https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... CCWDY6mzs3 - an article on the unaired cartoon related to the NES/Famicom Ultima release

There's also some videos on youtube for the songs on that album, and I think even a clip of the cartoon on there as well under the name "Kyofu No Exodus".
-

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Reply 2931 of 5848, by clueless1

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I've got all the old Ultimas installed on my DOS PC with "Ultima: The Reconstruction" mods. I do love the enhanced music. It sounds nearly as good playing through OPL as General MIDI. And the speed fixes are awesome - no need to mess with setmul and underclocking. Of course, I'm not sure when I'll ever get around to playing them (again). I played U2-U5 in my middle school/high school years on my Apple IIe. They were so immersive back in the day (I had a Mockingboard for U4/U5), but they seem so simplistic today. Not sure I could ever get into them like I was back then.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 2932 of 5848, by BetaC

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Might as well post an update, since I'm proud of myself. I mean, I've only owned the digital version of the game for the better part of a decade.

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I have managed to beat my physical copy of X-Wing Collector's CD, and I did it with full Kalidor Crescent honors.

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Reply 2933 of 5848, by newtmonkey

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clueless1 wrote on 2021-04-16, 21:59:

I've got all the old Ultimas installed on my DOS PC with "Ultima: The Reconstruction" mods. I do love the enhanced music. It sounds nearly as good playing through OPL as General MIDI. And the speed fixes are awesome - no need to mess with setmul and underclocking. Of course, I'm not sure when I'll ever get around to playing them (again). I played U2-U5 in my middle school/high school years on my Apple IIe. They were so immersive back in the day (I had a Mockingboard for U4/U5), but they seem so simplistic today. Not sure I could ever get into them like I was back then.

Having recently played through (or currently playing through) U3-5, I think I agree with you here, at least for U1-3 (and 4 to an extent).

I have really mixed feelings on Ultima IV, which I only recently played through to completion. The concept is awesome but I found the actual execution to be disappointing. It's amazing when you are exploring the world, visiting towns to gather information, finding mantras, runes, stones, and other quest items (indeed, the overarching quest of finding out "what you actually need to do" is a lot of fun). However, I found the combat to be extremely dull (and way too frequent) without any real tactics involved, and the dungeons to be really awful—and you easily spend more than half the game in dungeons and combat. I know U4 is historically important and when released was a game-changer (and I did play it back in the day), but I treat games like I treat books and movies—I don't rate something highly if I can't still enjoy it now. That's why going back and playing these older CRPGs has been such a blast... a lot of them have aged extremely well (including the interface, once you get used to it) such as Might & Magic Book One, Wizardry 1&5, Pool of Radiance, Wasteland, and Fallout.

Ultima V, however, is very impressive even today. Compared with U4 it has a more mature (nuanced) story, better combat, a more detailed world including more believable NPCs, a more involved quest, etc. Playing it for the first time just last year I was struck by how complex it is compared with RPGs now, never mind back when it was released!

Last edited by newtmonkey on 2021-04-17, 07:42. Edited 4 times in total.

Reply 2934 of 5848, by robertmo

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BetaC wrote on 2021-04-17, 03:30:
Might as well post an update, since I'm proud of myself. I mean, I've only owned the digital version of the game for the better […]
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Might as well post an update, since I'm proud of myself. I mean, I've only owned the digital version of the game for the better part of a decade.
End.jpg
I have managed to beat my physical copy of X-Wing Collector's CD, and I did it with full Kalidor Crescent honors.
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have you played classic or new missions? 😉

Reply 2935 of 5848, by BetaC

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robertmo wrote on 2021-04-17, 04:17:
BetaC wrote on 2021-04-17, 03:30:
Might as well post an update, since I'm proud of myself. I mean, I've only owned the digital version of the game for the better […]
Show full quote

Might as well post an update, since I'm proud of myself. I mean, I've only owned the digital version of the game for the better part of a decade.
End.jpg
I have managed to beat my physical copy of X-Wing Collector's CD, and I did it with full Kalidor Crescent honors.
image0.jpg

have you played classic or new missions? 😉

I did the new missions, because some of those were hard enough as it was. Someday I will get around to doing the others.

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Reply 2937 of 5848, by newtmonkey

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Ultima III: Exodus (PC)
As mentioned earlier in this thread, I had put my playthrough of the NES version of the game on hold—while it's a good port with charming graphics and a great, moody soundtrack, I just found it annoyingly slow to play. Ultima III is a pretty repetitive game to play, especially if you generally know what to do, and it was taking what seemed like FOREVER to walk all over the place getting gold and increasing my stats.

So I resumed playing the PC (DOS) version tonight. It's definitely a lot snappier to play, and it's also nice that you can save (almost) whenever you want, rather than having to stay at the inn like in the NES version. I had actually made a decent amount of progress in the game before I switched over to the NES version—I'd reached level 5 for two characters, got a ship, and got the Mark of Kings. I regret getting the mark actually, since the game scales enemies by level. I probably should have waited until I got everyone to level 5, started increasing my stats, and then got the mark after that.

I lost the maps I had drawn for the caves, so I decided I'd map the first level of Dardin's Pit as a sort of refresher, since it's very close to Lord British's Castle. I can see making progress in this game is gonna take some time! By the time I completed mapping the first level, I had lost hundreds of pieces of food due to gremlins, gained some experience (not even enough to level up, though I fought a LOT of battles), and gained just enough gold to cover my losses! However, as long as I am not worse off, then I figure it's worth it because I have my map.

Anyway, it was a nice session for getting used to the interface, getting my bearings, etc. My short-term goals for now are to explore the first level or two of each dungeon, make enough to outfit my paladin with a +2 Bow, and find a treasure horde in one of the caves that's relatively simple to get to. Then it will be a matter of getting lots of gold and making trips to Ambrosia to improve my core stats.

I'm trying to play this "straight" so even though I have a boat, I'm not going to pick up the exotic equipment yet (my mind may change if the level scaled enemies get too annoying!).

Reply 2938 of 5848, by Shreddoc

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How would people describe the unique appeals of the Ultima games?

Because I could never get into them as a youngster in the 80s/90s. Despite playing tons of other role playing games and loving fantasy novels, etc. I just felt like a complete bored, clueless idiot in any Ultima game I tried.

I would like to at least know what I missed out on, from experts.

Reply 2939 of 5848, by appiah4

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Try Ultima V I would say. If you dont like it the series is not for you..

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.