When Unreal Tournament first came out GLIDE WAS better than D3D/OGL for UT. Nowdays OGL/D3D is better.

This I know. It was still a pretty drastic shock to lose all my beloved fps at the time though:)

Heck, on my GF3 I know I was running UT fine @2048X1536 with all details and it was in the upper 60fps range. Now it's in the 140+ range?

I'm really starting to dislike you quite intensely;)

Overclocking the GF4 if you are just using standard cooling is NOT a good idea.

It wasnt overclocked. It was running factory default settings (which, admittedly, are clocked a little high) but even so, it shouldn't have been a problem. In *any* other game you'd care to name, he could run with everything maxed and have a nice, high, steady fps. With UT2K3 he had to drop it 50mhz down from the factory defaults, or he got a hard reboot within 5secs of UT loading.

and ameaturs can never do anything right...which anyone who has never grown up with at least DOS is an ameatur. Sorry.

Who you callin amateurs?:)

I'll have you know we both *did* grow up with DOS. Version 3. Thank you very much indeedy:)

Ahh, I can just remember the good ol' days, playing Hunt for Red Rock Rover on my IBM PS/1 complete with monocrome monitor and 2-button mouse. State of the art when I got it. Set my dad back about a grand. What an investment:)

Just play the damn already and ignore the FPS counter

I already ignore the FPS counter... I'm on a gf 256 remember:)
But the >1min time from "hitting fire" to "spawning" and the constant multiplayer freezing-for-up-to-30-seconds got old really quick. I've actually uninstalled it now. The 3 iso's sitting on my hdd combined with the fact that it copied the contents of these iso's straight to the hdd for a 5gig of wasted space all told pissed me off. I might reinstall when the patch comes out. Or when I next upgrade:)

Snover wrote:

Reminder: framerate is only as fast as your monitor's refresh rate. So, if your monitor is running at 60Hz, you're getting a max of 60FPS, *NO*MATTER*WHAT*. If it's running at 120Hz, you're getting a max of 120FPS, *NO*MATTER*WHAT*.

Like...DUH!

Actually I was lying. 🙁 My GF3/GF4 could never play UT @ 2048 although I always wanted it to. I played UT at 1920X1440 with the GF3.GF4. It was only with the 9700 that I was finally able to achieve that magic 2048 number. 😁

Also UT is the latest and "greates" engine out there. Supposedly the latest engine to put the most strain on a video card yet. It's quite possible that this caused your video card to overheat.

I played UT at 1920X1440 with the GF3.GF4. It was only with the 9700 that I was finally able to achieve that magic 2048 number.

You're still a git:)
For some reason thats totally beyond me, I could always reach 1600 on this monitor with my Voodoo Banshee. My GF, however, only appears to go up to 1280. Was quite a dissappointment for a better card. Of course, I couldnt actually *play* anything at that res on my banshee, but it made a nice desktop res:)

Also UT is the latest and "greates" engine out there. Supposedly the latest engine to put the most strain on a video card yet.

TBH, I haven't really seen anything in it thats particularly revolutionary. All I can see that they did was increase texture size alot, and increase model quality alot. This could all be done with Quake 1 (see the q1em1 retexturing project and the quake remodelling project).

Now Doom III... theres something impressive:)

Everyone is neglecting the poor MAX-FX engine! Don't forget MAX-FX! It's more advanced than all of those lowly Unreal and Quake engines, biaaatches!

Ugh, max payne was the worst game I ever played:)

And the secret to a good engine is customisability. I mean, compare the quake engine to max payne. It's easy to write mods for, you can do whatever the hell you want with it, and it's open source. Oh, and it has multiplayer (good multiplayer. Not like Deus-Ex's awful mp patch. God that was a letdown). Ditto for quake 2. I have no doubt that a few months after releasing doom 3, the same will be true of quake 3. Incase you missed it, im a big id software fan (altho q3 was massive letdown. I want a proper singleplayer mode, not just deathmatch vs bots:)

What Max Payne really needed was a coop multiplayer mode. All games should have this. Of course, theyd have had to rewrite the story... but that just means they could have made it better. Max Payne was fucking lame:)

And the voice acting... ugh, dont get me started on the voice acting..
And the facial expressions... ugh, dont get me started on the facial expressions...

etc:)

Yeah, I agree with the voice acting and facial expressions, but we're not talking about that -- we're talking about the ENGINE.
The REASON that there is no Max Payne multiplayer mode is because you can't do bullet-time against other people, because you can't slow down time. And since that's about the only truly "cool" aspect of the game, well, you get the picture. heh

chanza wrote:

Ugh, max payne was the worst game I ever played

Saying that gives away your age. You have no way of knowing what "bad" truly is until you been forced to play "E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial" on the Atari 2600.

...compare the quake engine to max payne. It's easy to write mods for, you can do whatever the hell you want with it, and it's open source.

Max has only been out for a year for crying out loud. Quake was released in'96. Give it some time.

What Max Payne really needed was a coop multiplayer mode.

Max was designed from beginning-to-end as a single-player, story-based game. Any multi-player element would've been tacked-on and it would've been an obvious tack-on.

All games should have this.

Really broad statement there. While it's good for a large number of games, some games either can't be made multi-player or would just be terrible at it. This is especially true for games with a storyline.

Max Payne was f***ing lame

All this griping about Max, did you pay full retail or something for it?

And the voice acting... ugh, dont get me started on the voice acting.. And the facial expressions...

What are you comparing this to anyway?

Saying that gives away your age. You have no way of knowing what "bad" truly is until you been forced to play "E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial" on the Atari 2600.

I actually sat here staring at my post before i posted it, wracking my brains for a worse game... and I honestly couldn't think of one:)

Okay, so there have been some pretty terrible games, new and old, but I've never seen one so terrible while everyone goes on about how great it is:)

And yeah, I'm only (only?) 20, and my 1st gaming experience was on my IBM, then amiga, then megadrive etc:)

Max has only been out for a year for crying out loud. Quake was released in'96. Give it some time.

A year is a long time. Max Payne isnt the sort of game you want to replay without some serious modifications. For a plain fps, a weapon mod is enough to tide you over until a serious gameplay mod comes out, but for a game with a "serious" plot like Max Payne, that just won't peak your interest. What's the fun of playing through the same storyline again and again with incredibly powerful weapons? The coolest mod I saw for MP was the kung-fu mod, and while that *was* pretty cool, it totally destroyed the game. You could run through the entire game in under 5 hours, running on walls to dodge bullets, then leaping off them to take out the badguy with a single kick. Now, if it'd come with its own singleplayer campaign, that d be different, but it didnt. And neither did any of the other mods.

Max was designed from beginning-to-end as a single-player, story-based game. Any multi-player element would've been tacked-on and it would've been an obvious tack-on.

I totally agree. It'd be just like it was with Deus-Ex. But I think Max Payne should have been designed from the start with coop multiplayer. It would have greatly increased its life-span.

Really broad statement there. While it's good for a large number of games, some games either can't be made multi-player or would just be terrible at it. This is especially true for games with a storyline.

IMO, coop is the best multiplayer mode out there, and every game ever made would benefit from it:)

I know, it's not particularly realistic, but neither am I:)

All this griping about Max, did you pay full retail or something for it?

Hellno. Its just with all the hype, and everone calling it the best game ever, it was a total letdown. You know, like the new star-wars movies.

What are you comparing this to anyway?

Any adventure game ever. In fact, almost any game that has voice acting at all these days. In fact, any game that uses sound at all. I mean, the voice acting is supposed to be suitable to the game. More, in a game as story-driven as Max Payne, it's supposed to set the environment and immerse you in the game more. All Max Payne's voice acting did for me was piss me off and make me want to skip the cinematics. Ditto for the facial expressions. They just totally pulled me out of the game, and said "Youre playing a game". It really ruined any chance of me enjoying the story whatsoever.
The voice acting in Max Payne was nearly as bad as that in Ultima IX.

Max Payne was a total letdown for me, and if you let me, I really will rant about it incessantly, as you may have noticed:)

FWIW, you could really tell some of the NPCs in Deus Ex were played by the same actor. Some of them were pretty bad, too. But the idea is that the good outweighs the bad. The facial expression I had the worst time with was definitely Max Payne. There was always this stupid smirk, even when something terrible like his wife and kid getting killed occurred. In any case, it doesn't matter. I was talking about the ENGINE.

chanza wrote:

I actually sat here staring at my post before i posted it, wracking my brains for a worse game... and I honestly couldn't think of one

You have much suffering ahead of you.

It's been so long since I've played a really bad game it's hard to remember outside certain moments. I do remember that "Galdregon's Domain" had one one of the most infuriating moments in a game ever.

I had entered a forest and found some elven group. They gave me an artifact and asked me to deliver it a related elven group in another (far-away) forest. In turn, they would give me a powerful weapon/armor item for the delivery. Fair enough. I try to deliver the item, only to be immediately attacked by that group. They were constantly screaming that I was a "traitor", murderer, monster, etc... I couldn't find a way to give them the artifact.

Finally found a walkthrough. Turned out I wasn't supposed to. I was "supposed to" wait until the first group of elven made the delivery offer, murder them, then track down the second group and murder them, keep all the artifacts/weapons for myself.

While it was possible to accept the delivery offer, it was impossible to complete it.

P.O.'d I was.

A year is a long time.

Tell that to the game's creators. It took them, what, three years to get the game out? You pretty much need to be a full-time programmer to have any kind of credibility when it come to this level of casuality regarding the release of source code.

But I think Max Payne should have been designed from the start with coop multiplayer. It would have greatly increased its life-span.

Far more likely, it would've drained a large portion of their resources, causing further delays, and almost certainly causing it to have weak multiplayer and the single-player to be (more) derivative.

If the programmers had infinite time,money,etc... I'm sure this would be true. Hypothetical games in our head that we will never program, will always be fantastic.

IMO, coop is the best multiplayer mode out there, and every game ever made would benefit from it

Let me know when you find a Multiplayer Zork series. 😀

Its just with all the hype, and everone calling it the best game ever, it was a total letdown.

Don't ever let yourself be guided by hype. Doing so will open you up to an endless series of let-downs.

Any adventure game ever.

Phbbt. You have a talent for the hyperbolic. Off the top of my head, ASYLUM an interactive text-adventure with graphics, with a parser so bad that it required the command "CLIMB DOOR" to get pass a closed door (open,etc... would not work). Trust me. There are plenty more out there.

...almost any game that has voice acting at all these days.

You're gonna hate this. I like Max's voice.
Sure he make some odd comments. The game's creator's come from Europe and are basing Max's dialog (and the story in general) on stories they've seen/heard about tough-guy's in New York. So yeah, it's going to get exaggerated at times.

But I'll take Max over any of the endless stream of "gangsta" or "tough guy" wanna-be's. Especially those that use that annoying "elite" speak.

l33t speak, dude. l33t speak.

Let me know when you find a Multiplayer Zork series.

MUD...*cough*

Finally found a walkthrough. Turned out I wasn't supposed to. I was "supposed to" wait until the first group of elven made the delivery offer, murder them, then track down the second group and murder them, keep all the artifacts/weapons for myself.

ROFL

Tell that to the game's creators. It took them, what, three years to get the game out? You pretty much need to be a full-time programmer to have any kind of credibility when it come to this level of casuality regarding the release of source code.

I meant in the modding community. A year's full development cycle would (nowadays) almost certainly result in a game that nobody would buy, play, or even look at.

However, in the modding community, a full year without a significant mod means (normally) lack of people working on modding the game, or lack of the engine's modability. This is a Bad Thing(TM).

Far more likely, it would've drained a large portion of their resources, causing further delays, and almost certainly causing it to have weak multiplayer and the single-player to be (more) derivative.

If the programmers had infinite time,money,etc... I'm sure this would be true. Hypothetical games in our head that we will never program, will always be fantastic.

Two words. "Serious Sam". Made on a tiny budget by a small unknown team of croatian developers, this was a superb game with great netplay, and a host of multiplayer options.

Admittedly, it had no plot worth speaking of, but with another year-or-so's development, it could have had. Also admittedly, it took about 3-4 years to make, but these guys were basically hobbyists.

If Max Payne had been designed from the start with multiplayer thought out, I think it would have worked, and been a better game. Of course, you're right in that if they thought "Multiplayer!" later in the dev-cycle, and then tried to implement it, it would have seemed tacked on, but from the start would be a different matter.

Phbbt. You have a talent for the hyperbolic. Off the top of my head, ASYLUM an interactive text-adventure with graphics, with a parser so bad that it required the command "CLIMB DOOR" to get pass a closed door (open,etc... would not work).

Okay, I'll cut it down alot to soothe the nit-pickers out there;)

"Any adventure game ever with high production values and a (IMO) great storyline that sucked me into the gameplay and held me there until I'd completed the game."

:)

You're gonna hate this. I like Max's voice.
Sure he make some odd comments. The game's creator's come from Europe and are basing Max's dialog (and the story in general) on stories they've seen/heard about tough-guy's in New York.

You're right, i do hate this:)

*I'm* from europe, and I don't assume every cop in New York is a hard-talking camp-film-noir sleuth. I assume they all sit around eating doughnuts and ignoring crime:)

The story for Max Payne wasn't the thing that really got me. I could play though the storyline quite happily, knowing that it's modern-day film-noir in game form. But with the terrible voice acting, absolutely hideous facial expressions, and done-to-death graphic-novel cutscenes, it just repelled me.

But I'll take Max over any of the endless stream of "gangsta" or "tough guy" wanna-be's.

Max *is* one of those "tough guy" wanna-be's :)

Snover wrote:

There was always this stupid smirk, even when something terrible like his wife and kid getting killed occurred.

Eh? In the demo, the "bitter smirk" didn't appear until after that sequence had completed. Before confronting the killers in his home, he seemed pretty generic to me. I specifically remember a "sad" face when he finds his wife.

l33t speak, dude. l33t speak.

Gaah! Like nails on chalkboard it is !!!

MUD...*cough*

MUD isn't Zork, the same way it isn't "Journey: The Quest Begins". My point was, that for a lot of single-player games, you can't make them multi-player unless you create a whole new game in the process. The mechanics in a single-player game frequently "break" when you add multi-player, much for the same reason they can break if you have a "living world" within the game. In all instances you must have a "path" that the player can follow to success.

If your game is "scripted", this isn't too hard. Allow NPC full free-will or worse, multiple players and you allow for all kinds of very frustrating dead-ends (not to mention, bugs).

chanza wrote:

I meant in the modding community.

Ok. "Source" for "modding" is one thing. "Full source release" is something else.

Two words. "Serious Sam". Made on a tiny budget by a small unknown team of croatian developers, this was a superb game with great netplay, and a host of multiplayer options.

Otherwise known as that really nice "Doom-Clone". "Adding" multi-player to this doesn't change the basic game-mechanics. Essentially you're doing the same thing in single or in multi-player

Admittedly, it had no plot worth speaking of,...

And if it had, trying to integrate multi-player into it would have been a dog of a job.

...but with another year-or-so's development, it could have had.

Another year or so and they would've missed their critical marketing opportunity. Remember that Sam came along after a dearth of all-action FPS games. Everyone else had shifted to creating storylines, adding "depth", and other "new stuff" to their games (which happened of course, because so many were screaming for FPS games that required "thinking"...they were tired of "brainless" games).

Sam came along just as people were getting tired of adventure-game elements being integrated into their games. I think it would still been good, just not nearly as popular.

If Max Payne had been designed from the start with multiplayer thought out, I think it would have worked, and been a better game.

This is where we we'll just have to disagree. If Max Payne had been designed from the start with multiplayer thought out, I think it would have been a an abominable hybrid, and people would've picked the part they liked (single or multi-player) and bemoaned incessantly how the game was ruined because the programmers should've concentrated on the part they liked and tossed the other.

Of course, you're right in that if they thought "Multiplayer!" later in the dev-cycle, and then tried to implement it, it would have seemed tacked on, but from the start would be a different matter.

Except of course, that's classic woulda/coulda/shoulda logic. I simply don't see how a game that obviously was created (from the very beginning) as a single-player 3D action adventure could be "molded" into a multi-player game without massive changes to the single player. How would you even begin to figure out play-balance? Third-person shooters tend not to go over all that well in multi-player and if you switch to 1st person you basically just turn it into a Quake clone.

*I'm* from europe,...

Just received a note from all the people on "the continent": "No he's not, he's in the U.K.!" Heh.
(Note: This is a lot like a "Canadian" not being an "American")

...and I don't assume every cop in New York is a hard-talking camp-film-noir sleuth.

True, but I still like the occasional "hard-talking camp-film-noir sleuth". Real or not.

I assume they all sit around eating doughnuts and ignoring crime

Just received a note from the officers at the NYPD. They invite you for a round the next time you visit a bar in New York, or possibly...a full clip.

Max *is* one of those "tough guy" wanna-be's

Phbbt. No, those are the guys playing online. They only make up a portion of the players out there and yet they still manage to ruin perfectly good games with some of the most tedious smack-talk ever...

I still don't know the game you're comparing it to, I'm presuming it's not "Kingpin". I suspect it's the one you're daydreaming about. Much like my "Ultima Construction Kit" (and BTW, yes I know about the clone versions. I always wanted an official version.)

Originally posted by Nicht Sehr Gut
This is where we we'll just have to disagree.

I agree:)

If Max Payne had been designed from the start with multiplayer thought out, I think it would have been a an abominable hybrid, and people would've picked the part they liked (single or multi-player) and bemoaned incessantly how the game was ruined because the programmers should've concentrated on the part they liked and tossed the other.

You know what really need's to happen? Someone need's to make a squad-based FPS with a storyline. Think Space Hulk. I mean, all the best RPG's are party-based, and for multiplayer, you just take control of less characters each, playing through the singleplayer campaign with (a) friend(s), with no horrible balance issues.

Also, generally, theres some degree of replayability. You have the various classes to experiment with, and normally, if you haven't resorted to a walkthrough (or played the game singleplayer >5 times:), you havent discovered all of the sidequest's in singleplayer yourself, so everyone in the party will know & suggest different quests. And, in Icewind Dale (1+2), you have Heart of Fury mode, designed for level 20+ characters enabling you to gain new levels and items.

What (I imagine) you'd end up with would be a great singleplayer/multiplayer FPS with a storyline. The singleplayer might suffer, but if you made it turn-based/had a pause button, it could work quite well.

I simply don't see how a game that obviously was created (from the very beginning) as a single-player 3D action adventure could be "molded" into a multi-player game without massive changes to the single player.

Ahh, but if it was obviously created from the very beginning as a coop game?:)

Just received a note from all the people on "the continent": "No he's not, he's in the U.K.!"

Prepare for brief history-of-chanza:)

1982: Born in UK
1987: Moved to france
1989: Moved to cyprus
1994: Moved back to uk
2000: Moved back to cyprus
2001: Moved back to uk

So nyer:)

Okay, so cyprus isnt really europe either, but france! I lived in france for 2 years! I hate france!:)

Just received a note from the officers at the NYPD. They invite for a round the next you visit a bar in New York, or possibly...a full clip.

Hah, they don't scare me! I've seen the simpsons, theyre probably all cleaning out their ears with revolvers as we speak ;)

Phbbt. No, those are the guys playing online. They only make up a portion of the players out there and yet they still manage to ruin perfectly good games with some of the most tedious smack-talk ever...

True. This is the main reason I gave up playing games online. Well, that and the lack of dsl/cable.

I still don't know the game you're comparing it to, I'm presuming it's not "Kingpin". I suspect it's the one you're daydreaming about.

Although I quite enjoyed Kingpin, you're right, I'm comparing it to my "ideal" game:)

*sigh*

If only the gaming industry would listen to me, and implement all my fantastic idea's into a single, genre-transcending game of absolutely epic proportions, the world would be a better place ;)

Ahhwell... C'est la vie:)

chanza wrote:

Someone need's to make a squad-based FPS with a storyline. Think Space Hulk.

They were getting pretty close to that with "X-COM: Alliance" before it was canceled. I'm suspecting that CPU control of your teammates wasn't working properly as that tends to kill a lot of "single-player team" games. Still remember PCGamer's sim columnist pitching a fit over his computer-controlled wingman who seemed to avoid combat until it finally launched a Stinger missile right into the back-end of the player's aircraft.

Ahh, but if it was obviously created from the very beginning as a coop game?

Then, almost certainly, it would have been completely different. No way of knowing unless you can tap into a parallel universe where that particular timeline actually took place.

1982: Born in UK

I was just pointing out typical "geographic prejudice". I lived in England for 5 years, but I was never British.

I lived in france for 2 years! I hate france!

Ah. The curse from Joan of Arc continues...

Hah, they don't scare me! I've seen the simpsons,...

Ah yes, the Simpsons; such a useful educational tool. *rolls eyes*

If only the gaming industry would listen to me, and implement all my fantastic idea's into a single, genre-transcending game of absolutely epic proportions, the world would be a better place

The scary thing is...I think those were John Romero's famous last words.

Nicht Sehr Gut wrote:

The scary thing is...I think those were John Romero's famous last words.

Bwahahaha... *ROFL*