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Reply 220 of 621, by feipoa

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2021-12-02, 03:16:

Because you consider yourself addicted, and can't really cite any reasons why this hobby is meaningful to you, you attack the things about it others find meaningful.

Plz stop

Attempts to hush others' opinions is largely unhelpful. If my posts make you feel uncomfortable, you may choose to look the other way. I'm calling it as I see it and I think a good deal of collectors here and elsewhere have unrealised issues with purchase/acquisition addiction w.r.t computer paraphernalia. It's a topic no one else wants to address and sometimes bringing direct attention to the issue is sufficient to awaken some. I do not think hoarding objects is a healthy practice, nor is it good for the sole. There is no need to hide away from this realisation. I too am trying to come to terms with it. There's a bit of a floating line between the casual hobby and addiction; ask yourself what side you're on. The hope here is to bring an opportunity for dialogue, not criticism.

It is fairly easy to cite a half dozen reasons why the hobby is "meaningful to me", and I'm sure they can be worded to sound universally agreeable, however I feel it would serve mostly as justification for time spent and acquisitions made. People are certainly good at explaining things away.

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Reply 221 of 621, by maxtherabbit

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feipoa wrote on 2021-12-02, 22:03:
maxtherabbit wrote on 2021-12-02, 03:16:

Because you consider yourself addicted, and can't really cite any reasons why this hobby is meaningful to you, you attack the things about it others find meaningful.

Plz stop

Attempts to hush others' opinions is largely unhelpful. If my posts make you feel uncomfortable, you may choose to look the other way. I'm calling it as I see it and I think a good deal of collectors here and elsewhere have unrealised issues with purchase/acquisition addiction w.r.t computer paraphernalia. It's a topic no one else wants to address and sometimes bringing direct attention to the issue is sufficient to awaken some. I do not think hoarding objects is a healthy practice, nor is it good for the sole. There is no need to hide away from this realisation. I too am trying to come to terms with it. There's a bit of a floating line between the casual hobby and addiction; ask yourself what side you're on. The hope here is to bring an opportunity for dialogue, not criticism.

It is fairly easy to cite a half dozen reasons why the hobby is "meaningful to me", and I'm sure they can be worded to sound universally agreeable, however I feel it would serve mostly as justification for time spent and acquisitions made. People are certainly good at explaining things away.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, nor an attempt to hush your opinion. I just wish you'd knock it off with them negative waves man

Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Last edited by maxtherabbit on 2021-12-02, 22:15. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 222 of 621, by Shreddoc

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The definition of "hoarding objects" is very subjective and personal.

One person can have 10 computers and spend much time playing with all.

While the next person might have 5 computers and only ever use 2 of them.

Which one then is the hoarder? Sheer quantity does not define it.

Reply 223 of 621, by Tetrium

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Unknown_K wrote on 2021-12-02, 03:31:

I don't get the problem of having a shelf of games to go with the hardware. I mean if you have a collection of 50 cassette decks and no cassettes to play wouldn't that be weird?

Yes, it kinda would.

Most of my hardware is not boxed and most of my games don't come in boxes either. It's often just jewelcase or those plastic DVD cases.
For me it's the parts that are important, not the boxes and I'd rather actually use it instead of purchasing it just so I can put it in a glass case so people can look at it.
My games are mostly tucked away, the games I play most are closer to me so I can get to them quickly.

I get it to eventually use it, not to look at it. But apparently the latter is a thing.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 224 of 621, by Tetrium

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Shreddoc wrote on 2021-12-02, 22:11:
The definition of "hoarding objects" is very subjective and personal. […]
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The definition of "hoarding objects" is very subjective and personal.

One person can have 10 computers and spend much time playing with all.

While the next person might have 5 computers and only ever use 2 of them.

Which one then is the hoarder? Sheer quantity does not define it.

A hoarder is when you basically act like you are a scrapyard and take in anything you can get, but you have few (if any) motion of stuff going out again. And at some point the stuff you collect starts littering the place you live in.
I agree with the sheer quantity alone not being the one defining thing. For me it's also about not having so much that your guests run the risk of randomly tripping over the stuff that's been hoarded 😜

But there are fairly detailed definitions of hoarding, even a DSM one iirc.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 225 of 621, by Shreddoc

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That's fair.

But even that, does come with complex implications.

For example: If I reach Hoarder status, then move to a house with double floor space, suddenly I am not a Hoarder again, because nobody trips up any more?

Bah, I realise in hindsight this is semantics and so, may be treated as such. 😉

Reply 226 of 621, by Unknown_K

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Tetrium wrote on 2021-12-02, 23:04:
Yes, it kinda would. […]
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Unknown_K wrote on 2021-12-02, 03:31:

I don't get the problem of having a shelf of games to go with the hardware. I mean if you have a collection of 50 cassette decks and no cassettes to play wouldn't that be weird?

Yes, it kinda would.

Most of my hardware is not boxed and most of my games don't come in boxes either. It's often just jewelcase or those plastic DVD cases.
For me it's the parts that are important, not the boxes and I'd rather actually use it instead of purchasing it just so I can put it in a glass case so people can look at it.
My games are mostly tucked away, the games I play most are closer to me so I can get to them quickly.

I get it to eventually use it, not to look at it. But apparently the latter is a thing.

The good thing about boxed hardware or software is you have some place to store everything so it doesn't get lost. New games are pretty much download only. Sure you can get a DVD box of a game at Walmart but inside is only a serial you need to use when you download the game. I grew up in an era where games had multiple floppy disks, manuals, codewheels ,some printed maps, trinkets, and software catalogs. Keeping all that together in the original box makes sense to me. Some newer games I got at thrift stores that are just CDs in a jewel case. I have a whole shelf of boxed Amiga games for example that I don't show to people or bag about on the net, they are just cool to me and are fun to pull out and play when I feel like it. Yes, I do open shrinkwrapped boxes and intend to use what I buy.

I have known plenty of people who spend crazy money on hardware especially rare items of no real use but tend to just pirate software. There are all types of collectors out there and how they collect and show off their stuff doesn't bother or matter to me at all. I also don't care what people pay for their hobby stuff which seems to piss other people off. This is all obsolete stuff destined to the landfill so how much you collect or how you enjoy it is up to you.

Collector of old computers, hardware, and software

Reply 227 of 621, by Tetrium

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Shreddoc wrote on 2021-12-02, 23:13:
That's fair. […]
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That's fair.

But even that, does come with complex implications.

For example: If I reach Hoarder status, then move to a house with double floor space, suddenly I am not a Hoarder again, because nobody trips up any more?

Bah, I realise in hindsight this is semantics and so, may be treated as such. 😉

It kinda is. If you are a beekeeper while abroad on vacation, you're not keeping any bees at your vacation resort so are you a beekeeper there?

About how much you hoard, it has to be excessive and that can be seen as kinda relative.
Yes, it is indeed semantics to a degree 😜

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 228 of 621, by Tetrium

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Unknown_K wrote on 2021-12-02, 23:48:
Tetrium wrote on 2021-12-02, 23:04:
Yes, it kinda would. […]
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Unknown_K wrote on 2021-12-02, 03:31:

I don't get the problem of having a shelf of games to go with the hardware. I mean if you have a collection of 50 cassette decks and no cassettes to play wouldn't that be weird?

Yes, it kinda would.

Most of my hardware is not boxed and most of my games don't come in boxes either. It's often just jewelcase or those plastic DVD cases.
For me it's the parts that are important, not the boxes and I'd rather actually use it instead of purchasing it just so I can put it in a glass case so people can look at it.
My games are mostly tucked away, the games I play most are closer to me so I can get to them quickly.

I get it to eventually use it, not to look at it. But apparently the latter is a thing.

The good thing about boxed hardware or software is you have some place to store everything so it doesn't get lost. New games are pretty much download only. Sure you can get a DVD box of a game at Walmart but inside is only a serial you need to use when you download the game. I grew up in an era where games had multiple floppy disks, manuals, codewheels ,some printed maps, trinkets, and software catalogs. Keeping all that together in the original box makes sense to me. Some newer games I got at thrift stores that are just CDs in a jewel case. I have a whole shelf of boxed Amiga games for example that I don't show to people or bag about on the net, they are just cool to me and are fun to pull out and play when I feel like it. Yes, I do open shrinkwrapped boxes and intend to use what I buy.

I have known plenty of people who spend crazy money on hardware especially rare items of no real use but tend to just pirate software. There are all types of collectors out there and how they collect and show off their stuff doesn't bother or matter to me at all. I also don't care what people pay for their hobby stuff which seems to piss other people off. This is all obsolete stuff destined to the landfill so how much you collect or how you enjoy it is up to you.

I have actually only seen the "DVD box with only a code inside and you have to download the rest" once btw. Imo these are not really worth keeping if only because virtually all my physical games are second hand 😜
I only have a couple floppy games, mostly because at the time I got my first PC (Deschutes 350MHz) games weren't sold on floppies anymore and even second hand these were much less appealing to me, for several reasons. Many of these disks had been reused for general storage or the code wheel stuff or booklets with red/blue thingy you have to place on top etc etc would be missing (due to improper storage, kinda like you emphasize is a good reason to keep everything in the boxes) or the disks had been mistreated or the last disk or 4 is missing which is difficult to see the 4th and last floppy missing for someone who was never into gaming back when floppy games were new. With CDROM it's much easier to check the quality of the media in situ and these are much more durable overall.
So I was very reluctant to spend any money on floppy games at the time. I did use floppies extensively back then (I got stacks and bags for free at the time and experimented a lot with different floppy formats and different ways to minimize loss of transferred data due to bad disks) until I got my first external ZIP drive.

As I got most of my hardware second hand, they did not come with their boxes. And boxed items take up more storage space. In some cases I did have the boxes I'd use those boxes to store other stuff.
In some cases I would happen to find or receive a box (find empty while dumpsterdiving or used as a shipping box for an unrelated item) for a hardware component I already had, which is kinda funny when that happens 😜
I also have motherboard boxes or manuals for which I don't have the hardware it originally shipped with 😜

For me it was never about the money. If anything, it was because it was so cheap. Back then buying a 32 MEGAbyte USB stick was way more expensive than buying second hand 100MB ZIP disks and boxed games I got for like 50 cents each. Even many of the big box games I got were for very cheap, there's very few boxed games I paid more than €10 for. It's virtually all from the bargaining bin 😜

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 229 of 621, by Plasma

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Tetrium wrote on 2021-12-02, 23:08:
A hoarder is when you basically act like you are a scrapyard and take in anything you can get, but you have few (if any) motion […]
Show full quote
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-12-02, 22:11:
The definition of "hoarding objects" is very subjective and personal. […]
Show full quote

The definition of "hoarding objects" is very subjective and personal.

One person can have 10 computers and spend much time playing with all.

While the next person might have 5 computers and only ever use 2 of them.

Which one then is the hoarder? Sheer quantity does not define it.

A hoarder is when you basically act like you are a scrapyard and take in anything you can get, but you have few (if any) motion of stuff going out again. And at some point the stuff you collect starts littering the place you live in.
I agree with the sheer quantity alone not being the one defining thing. For me it's also about not having so much that your guests run the risk of randomly tripping over the stuff that's been hoarded 😜

But there are fairly detailed definitions of hoarding, even a DSM one iirc.

IMO the difference between collecting and hoarding is whether the stuff is organized. You could have a warehouse full of old computers, but if everything is organized and you can easily find things then it's just a huge collection. Conversely, if you have a room in your house that's packed full of junk and you can't find anything, then you are hoarding.

Reply 230 of 621, by Claris

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A hoarder to me is like what you see on one of those TV shows: Where a room of the house is just littered with stuff (junk, collectibles, toys, dolls, whatever) everywhere, nothing is organized, people are tripping over everything just trying to move around. That's probably an extreme worst case scenario but you get the picture.

I'd also argue a hoarder could be someone stockpiling valuables with no plan on letting them go. Aka: Someone buying up a pallet of new graphics cards and just sitting on them forever or for a grossly inflated price. That is the worst kind of hoarding, IMO.

Reply 231 of 621, by creepingnet

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What's funny about me is I have ran close to hoarder phase multiple times, but when it gets to the point that I'm spending more time fixing crap than playing games or running software, that's when I tend to let stuff go. I'm almost at that point now, and the number gets smaller the older I get, because family/career/age makes it harder and harder to upkeep a small LAN's worth of PC's from the dark ages. Also, the $$ is pretty nice, and then I can invest it back into what I keep to really soup it up. I'm at the point I kind of make the collection work for itself, 🤣.

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My Youtube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/creepingnet
Creepingnet's World - https://creepingnet.neocities.org/

Reply 232 of 621, by Tetrium

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Plasma wrote on 2021-12-03, 13:26:
Tetrium wrote on 2021-12-02, 23:08:
A hoarder is when you basically act like you are a scrapyard and take in anything you can get, but you have few (if any) motion […]
Show full quote
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-12-02, 22:11:
The definition of "hoarding objects" is very subjective and personal. […]
Show full quote

The definition of "hoarding objects" is very subjective and personal.

One person can have 10 computers and spend much time playing with all.

While the next person might have 5 computers and only ever use 2 of them.

Which one then is the hoarder? Sheer quantity does not define it.

A hoarder is when you basically act like you are a scrapyard and take in anything you can get, but you have few (if any) motion of stuff going out again. And at some point the stuff you collect starts littering the place you live in.
I agree with the sheer quantity alone not being the one defining thing. For me it's also about not having so much that your guests run the risk of randomly tripping over the stuff that's been hoarded 😜

But there are fairly detailed definitions of hoarding, even a DSM one iirc.

IMO the difference between collecting and hoarding is whether the stuff is organized. You could have a warehouse full of old computers, but if everything is organized and you can easily find things then it's just a huge collection. Conversely, if you have a room in your house that's packed full of junk and you can't find anything, then you are hoarding.

I wonder, if you have a hoard of stuff littering your room or house even if you don't hoard anymore, are you still a hoarder then? 😜
Could someone be an actual hoarder if they do hoard stuff but as soon as they get home with the item or the item arrives at your address, but you bin it right away? (obviously no sane person would do it this way, but I'm just being hypothetical here 🤣)

And what if someone is a hoarder and at the same time also a compulsory organizer who keeps sorting and organizing and reorganizing their hoard? What would make this different from a collector?

Is someone a hoarder if he got everything nicely tidied up but his memory is so bad that he'd even forget his keys that have been in his pocket the whole time?

My guess is that many of these things may also shift over time or some people may be borderline this or half-that some of the time. I think it's not really clearly definable who is a hoarder and who is not except perhaps for the worst cases perhaps?

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 233 of 621, by Joakim

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Growing up with hoarder parents my opinion is that you have a problem when it becomes hazardous and unsanitary and that it becomes a problem to have a normal social life because of the pile.

Generally if you keep to "your room" behind a closed door I really don't see why 2 or 20 computers would make a difference as long as you don't neglect other parts of your life because of it.

Reply 234 of 621, by Nexxen

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Joakim wrote on 2021-12-04, 07:35:

Growing up with hoarder parents my opinion is that you have a problem when it becomes hazardous and unsanitary and that it becomes a problem to have a normal social life because of the pile.

Generally if you keep to "your room" behind a closed door I really don't see why 2 or 20 computers would make a difference as long as you don't neglect other parts of your life because of it.

Sums up what DSM points to.
Other concept is "interference" with daily life's activities.
That's what is shown in documentaries, health hazards basically.


Non technical uses of terms by non professionals in the field is always a bad topic to expand on.
I would avoid going further down this road unless a professional hops in.

PC#1 Pentium 233 MMX - 98SE
PC#2 PIII-1Ghz - 98SE/W2K

Reply 235 of 621, by Shreddoc

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Not a professional, but we can differentiate between :

1. "Hoarding disorder" - a psychiatric condition which can significantly impact lives, and

2. The common verb "hoarding" - to gather or hide a quantity of items for future use.

Reply 236 of 621, by Nexxen

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Shreddoc wrote on 2021-12-04, 11:26:

Not a professional, but we can differentiate between :

1. "Hoarding disorder" - a psychiatric condition which can significantly impact lives, and

2. The common verb "hoarding" - to gather or hide a quantity of items for future use.

The common verb is viral here 😀
And I am one! 🤣
Guess the ant had that too 🤔

PC#1 Pentium 233 MMX - 98SE
PC#2 PIII-1Ghz - 98SE/W2K

Reply 237 of 621, by libby

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I'm somewhat of a hoarder and am pretty much fine with it. I have thousands of motherboards, expansion cards, drives etc. The place I live is a hardware disaster. I don't quite let it get to "fire hazard" levels and keep things sanitary. Here's iunno, about 2% of my stuff.

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In my case I buy a lot of stuff to store and flip later. I've made a lot of money doing so and don't see prices coming down any time in the foreseeable future, primarily due to both component shortages, inflation, and speculation. Vintage keyboard prices have ballooned out of control for some time now, and even items like chunky AT mini tower cases are fetching hundreds of dollars. There is something to be said for building a real retro PC yourself, emulation is a turnkey solution, but building your own gives a satisfaction to a lot of people which emulation can't match. There's a place for both in the hobby.

Retro computing is a wholly luxury hobby and the psychological reasons behind why people sink money into it go way beyond the scope of this forum, but suffice it to say those reasons are factors behind prices in a lot of other hobbies. There's lots of overlapping parallels with vintage auto, collecting vintage toys, restoring art, and fixing old consumer electronics. A 1970s tube television gets a terrible looking picture compared to a modern OLED one, but people spend tons of money restoring them. Cassette tapes and vinyl records have made comebacks in recent years despite the audio fidelity being debatably worse than lossless digital.

There are no "wrong" ways to go about the hobby as long as you're enjoying yourself and not making other people's enjoyment suffer.

Reply 238 of 621, by Claris

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libby wrote on 2021-12-05, 23:14:
I'm somewhat of a hoarder and am pretty much fine with it. I have thousands of motherboards, expansion cards, drives etc. The pl […]
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I'm somewhat of a hoarder and am pretty much fine with it. I have thousands of motherboards, expansion cards, drives etc. The place I live is a hardware disaster. I don't quite let it get to "fire hazard" levels and keep things sanitary. Here's iunno, about 2% of my stuff.

489d42bc-d9d9-4c5c-9284-7191aaa99562.jpg

In my case I buy a lot of stuff to store and flip later. I've made a lot of money doing so and don't see prices coming down any time in the foreseeable future, primarily due to both component shortages, inflation, and speculation. Vintage keyboard prices have ballooned out of control for some time now, and even items like chunky AT mini tower cases are fetching hundreds of dollars. There is something to be said for building a real retro PC yourself, emulation is a turnkey solution, but building your own gives a satisfaction to a lot of people which emulation can't match. There's a place for both in the hobby.

Retro computing is a wholly luxury hobby and the psychological reasons behind why people sink money into it go way beyond the scope of this forum, but suffice it to say those reasons are factors behind prices in a lot of other hobbies. There's lots of overlapping parallels with vintage auto, collecting vintage toys, restoring art, and fixing old consumer electronics. A 1970s tube television gets a terrible looking picture compared to a modern OLED one, but people spend tons of money restoring them. Cassette tapes and vinyl records have made comebacks in recent years despite the audio fidelity being debatably worse than lossless digital.

There are no "wrong" ways to go about the hobby as long as you're enjoying yourself and not making other people's enjoyment suffer.

I say this all mostly in jest:

But buying retro computer things to flip later, presumably for ugly inflated Ebay prices and then claiming "There are no wrong ways to go about the hobby as long as you're enjoying yourself and not making other people's enjoyment suffer". Idk man. Sounds like you enjoy seeing peoples wallet suffer. Truly your profiteering ways are the enemy to all trying to stay on a budget 😜

At least your honest.

Reply 239 of 621, by TrashPanda

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Claris wrote on 2021-12-01, 22:07:
I'd argue some retro computers are allready there. Look at prices for an Amiga. Allready starting to enter Neo Geo range dollar […]
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WolverineDK wrote on 2021-12-01, 21:54:

Guy , can you imagine either WATA games, or a company similar to that, snoop around here. And perhaps will try make it a bubble just like the video game auction bubble. That Karl Jobst is basically showing , how insane things are at the moment ? Cause that is what I see with "popular or rare classic computer hardware" as a future bubble. And probably some of the same players comes into this niche of things. I personally think it is scary. Sorry for shouting wolf, before it is proven. But I have a sneaky suspicion . It could happen too. And what I have remembered in the past, certain things has happened like that around this great hobby. I still remember certain forum threads that touched upon the subject. When it came to our "retro" hobby.

I'd argue some retro computers are allready there. Look at prices for an Amiga. Allready starting to enter Neo Geo range dollars for a fully kitted A1200, and Neo Geo was the Rolls- Royce of retro console gaming.

I don't forsee general DOS gaming/collecting ever getting as bad as consoles currently are. For the most part anyway. You have to remember that unlike consoles, there's a bit of a skill barrier to putting a DOS computer together and then getting all the drivers setup. Retro consoles are just plug n go.

DOS games also debatably arn't in as high demand with how easy it is to get them digitally on gog or *elsewhere*. Plop them on your CF card and your good to go. You don't absolutely need the floppy disks or CD to play on a retro computer. With consoles you need the cartridge or an extra expense for a flashcart.

Im sitting here looking at prices for Amiga 1200 parts ..Jesus

I actually own a reasonably well kitted out 1200 (two HDDS, ram expansion and external scsi CD rom) and im kind of shocked just how much its worth now, even have the original Amiga monitor for it., I haven't used it in a couple of years so perhaps it might be better being sold to a collector who will use it.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁