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Intel smashes Ryzen

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Reply 80 of 106, by Intel486dx33

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Well, Having grown up in Silicon Valley I have seen it go from Farm land ( vegetable fields and fruit tree orchards ) to what it is today
Which is “Chaos”. I think Silicon Valley is rethinking itself and rebuilding itself. It started out as a tech hub for the USA Navy. With Moffet field and Alameda Naval base back when the San Francisco Bay Area was the home of the Pacific Fleet. They have since moved to San Diego.
Even the main highway in Silicon Valley was named after the Navy ship “Nimitz”
The Pilots use to train in Navy Air craft flying over Silicon Valley.
But with President Clinton, the Navy moved to San Diego.
There is still some US Navy presence in Silicon Valley but not like before.
They even changed the name of the highway to “interstate 880”

But back then allot of the tech sector was geared towards the USA Military.
The PC gaming sector was mainly EA sports, Nvidia, ATI, and small outfits.

Allot the BIG computer companies worked for the USA Government, State and USA Military.
HP
IBM
Intel
Microsoft
Sun Microsystems,
SGI
Etc...

The Home PC market only started to take off in about 1993 with “Multimedia” computers.
486 computers with cdroms and sound cards and modems for the home dial up.
Running Win3x

In 1995 was the launch of Win95 and the Pentium PC.
This is when the home computers was really being accepted as a necessity for education and home office.

In 1998 Win98 was released and the Pentium II CPU.
By this time it was normal for everyone to have a home PC.
DSL and Cable Modem networks where in development.

In 2000 The Pentium III was popular and home networks where the trend for configuring all you home computers with WiFi
Ethernet and Home routers and switches are the trend.

About 2002 is when the Dot com bust occurred.
Silicon Valley changed , All the UNIX power house companies closed there campuses ( HP, SGI, Sun Microsystems, etc )
And allot of the companies that produced software for these operating systems.

What is left today in Silicon Valley is Apple, Amazon, Oracle, Facebook, etc.
Apple has built is NEW campus on top of the old HP campus.
Facebook took over Sun Microsystems building.
Amazon is building distribution centers
Oracle has expanded all over the San Fansico Bay Area building where ever that can find open land.
Companies are looking for open land building campuses where ever they can so they are building in outer regions of Silicon Valley.

Back in 1993 a Multimedia PC with a 486dx-33, 4mb ram and CDROM and Sound card costs about $2500
The AMD CPU was NOT much less expensive abut about 75% of the Intel equivalent.
And so this trend has continued.

AMD has always been the Budget CPU when compared to Intel equivalent.

Actually, It was the Pentium CPU and Windows NT that started to eat up sales of the UNIX machines and eventually put these manufactures out of business.

So it is Ironic that the Battle between Apple-Motorola and Microsoft-Intel ends this way.

Microsoft is building its now computers now.
Apple eco-system is dominating the computer and consumer market.

It Appears that Microsoft is still playing catch up with Apple and the PC desperately wants to be an Apple.

I am not bias towards any Computer company I just comment on my own experiences and observations.

Reply 81 of 106, by imi

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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-01-18, 21:48:

I am not bias towards any Computer company I just comment on my own experiences and observations.

you're also posting a lot of falsehoods though, and it often feels deliberately so.

Apple eco-system is dominating the computer and consumer market.

this simply is not true, no matter how often you post it or how hard you believe it yourself, apple has a single-digit market-share in the computer market.

if apple is dominating any comptuer market, it would maybe be music and media production, if even that though one can't deny they hold a significant position there, but most definitely not the consumer market.
https://lowendmac.com/2003/apple-has-always-b … a-niche-player/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_share_of … omputer_vendors

Reply 82 of 106, by Intel486dx33

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So Silicon Valley has gone from Being a computer manufacturing, software development networking equipment and internet portal hub to being a Social media hub.

After the Dot com bust of 2002 Silicon valley changes to being a Social Media Hub with Twitter and Facebook.

I don’t know about the rest of the world. But in USA Apple computers and devices are very popular.
It started with the end of Windows-7 many people started switching to Apple computers and devices for home computers.

Reply 83 of 106, by Standard Def Steve

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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-01-18, 21:48:

The AMD CPU was NOT much less expensive abut about 75% of the Intel equivalent.
And so this trend has continued.

AMD has always been the Budget CPU when compared to Intel equivalent.

How can you call them the Budget CPU when Zen 3 is beating Intel whatever-the-hell-Lake across the board, including SPEC and gaming metrics?

I don't get how some people keep trying to defend a company that's been sitting on the same basic desktop CPU microarchitecture since 2015. They have a ton of cash and a huge R+D team! You'd think they could do a little more than just tack on another hundred MHz (and another 10w of power draw) to Skylake each year and pass it off as a new "generation." All whist AMD, with its relatively puny R+D budget, and Apple, a newcomer to the chip design scene, have both been making some real improvements to their core CPU designs.

At least they tossed Bob Swan and brought back Pat Gelsinger to lead the company. Perhaps he'll be Intel's Lisa Su and turn the company around.

Standard Def Rigs
Super P3: PIII-S @ 1.63 GHz/FSB155 | 2GB DDR-310 | 6800GT AGP | 500GB 7200 RPM
Super G4: 2x PowerPC 7455 @ 1.5 GHz | 2GB DDR-333 | 7800GS AGP | 300GB 10k RPM
Super G5: 4x PowerPC 970 @ 2.5 GHz | 16GB DDR2-533 | x1950XT PCIe | 512GB SSD

Reply 84 of 106, by Bruninho

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@Intel486dx33: It would be better for you if you could have something to prove what you say, otherwise, like @imi said, you might be posting a lot of false stuff with no stats or reference information to defend it. Try to put some references to prove it. Or better, don't even bother.

@imi: Apple might not be dominating the home consumer market in computers, but I noticed two things from the two links you posted.
1. The first (lowendmac) is from 2003. 17 years ago. A lot as changed since then, so we can agree that this one doesn't count, right?
2. This one is good since it spans across ten years. One good thing to note from that is how much Apples market share has grown in the last 5 years. Enough to put Acer and Asus behind.

But in my opinion, HP, Lenovo and Dell have one big advantage - their product lineup has much more variation than Apple's, hence why they have a bigger market share. Dell for example has several notebook lineups. Apple's notebook lineup consists of only MacBook Air and MacBook Pros. If we take the desktops into account, the differences are bigger - it's just Mac Mini, Mac Pro and iMac against different Dell desktop lineups. I would like to see a direct comparison between the Apple's computers versus their direct competitors (for example, high end MacBook Pro vs high end Dell XPS market shares) for a more clear view.

Admittedly, Apple hasn't been giving much attention to the computer market since iPad was launched, giving much of its attention to the iOS devices and other gimmicks like AppleTV and Apple Watch. They might change it now, starting with the Apple Silicon Macs. We can wait and see, only the time will tell us.

Anyway: I still stand my point that AMD Ryzen is performing better than Intel actually... if I were going to build a new simracing rig today I would actually go after a Ryzen not an Intel CPU. The price versus performance alone is enough to convince me. Especially when I live in a country where every import is outrageously expensive.

From 2002 until now all my computers have been Intel powered, but for the next year I will hopefully leave them behind for a M1. Actually, before Apple announced their ARM transition, I hoped that they would go after AMD following their problems with Intel. I then thought: "OK, they have AMD graphics, why don't they go full AMD with their CPU if they are so unhappy with Intel?" Back then, someone had even found some code in macOS related to AMD CPUs, hence why I had these hopes. Apple probably tested them too before going full ARM. Before being convinced about M1's promises and power, I was seriously considering a switch to an AMD powered notebook running Linux.

Standard Def Steve wrote on 2021-01-18, 23:18:

I don't get how some people keep trying to defend a company that's been sitting on the same basic desktop CPU microarchitecture since 2015. They have a ton of cash and a huge R+D team! You'd think they could do a little more than just tack on another hundred MHz (and another 10w of power draw) to Skylake each year and pass it off as a new "generation." All whist AMD, with its relatively puny R+D budget, and Apple, a newcomer to the chip design scene, have both been making some real improvements to their core CPU designs.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say here. Even their 10th generation is just a refresh of their 9th generation, because they did not meet (again) their deadlines.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

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Reply 85 of 106, by imi

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Bruninho wrote on 2021-01-18, 23:33:

@imi: Apple might not be dominating the home consumer market in computers, but I noticed two things from the two links you posted.
1. The first (lowendmac) is from 2003. 17 years ago. A lot as changed since then, so we can agree that this one doesn't count, right?
2. This one is good since it spans across ten years. One good thing to note from that is how much Apples market share has grown in the last 5 years. Enough to put Acer and Asus behind.

the first link is old yes, I posted that because it reflects the earlier history of apple and despite everyone remembering Apple IIs very well them never really having a dominant position in personal computers despite that.
and no, not much has changed in that regard imho if you look at the market share thereafter it always hovered in the single digits for the most part.

talking revenue is something completely different of course, both in computing and mobile spaces, but that is not what I'd call "dominate the market" just... charging too much x3
apple definitely has it's niche though but as long as apple stays in that niche of high priced "prestige" computers, they will definitely not become a dominant force in personal computers any time soon.

I really wish we wouldn't use this thread for meaningful discussion though, I'd rather just see it closed :p

Reply 86 of 106, by Intel486dx33

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And I think Silicon Valley is goin to change again after this COVID pandemic is over.
It might become a Bio-tech / A.I. hub ?
Social media is Dying in America because people dont trust it anymore.

All the computer companies are moving to Texas because of Cheap labor and less taxes.

Reply 87 of 106, by rmay635703

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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-01-19, 00:13:

And I think Silicon Valley is goin to

All the computer companies are moving to Texas because of Cheap labor and less taxes.

Funny part is most computer companies and software houses
started with major presences in Texas then all went bankrupt/left/got bought out

Now all of a sudden they are going back,
doubt they will ever reach the sizes of the companies that were there in the late 80’s
but funny to see them returning to a state where every computer company eventually failed

Reply 88 of 106, by Caluser2000

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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-01-19, 00:13:
And I think Silicon Valley is goin to change again after this COVID pandemic is over. It might become a Bio-tech / A.I. hub ? So […]
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And I think Silicon Valley is goin to change again after this COVID pandemic is over.
It might become a Bio-tech / A.I. hub ?
Social media is Dying in America because people dont trust it anymore.

All the computer companies are moving to Texas because of Cheap labor and less taxes.

That is damn funny as all hell. So funny I spat my coffee laughing 🤣.

There's a glitch in the matrix.

Reply 90 of 106, by Intel486dx33

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Well, with new tech comes new music. And you need people to make music.
So I think bio-tech is only going to get bigger in Silicon Valley.
Software development and webpage publishing.

Silicon Valley real estate is too scarce and expensive for manufacturing companies.
Computers coming from Asia will enter through the port of Oakland and be distributed thru out the USA.

Reply 91 of 106, by Caluser2000

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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-01-19, 01:33:

Well, with new tech comes new music. And you need people to make music.

Lovers of old music exist ffs. A lot of new songs are also a rehash od old song too.

New music is more young'n and most of it comp-lete crap. It does seen to be improving recently with this covid thing.

There's a glitch in the matrix.

Reply 92 of 106, by mockingbird

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AMD's Driver section of their site is down.

I posted a thread about it on their forum.

Let's see how long it takes for this wonderful company who everyone says should supplant Intel to fix the issue.

I was going to do a comparison on driver availability with regard to something Intel released in 2013 (Haswell) to something AMD released (A6 CPUs perhaps? Heck, they're still selling laptops with them inside). It's been down for the better part of the day.

I used a proxy server, disabled blocking of pop-ups, tried another browser, but nada.

7ivtic.png

Reply 93 of 106, by Intel486dx33

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Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-01-19, 01:43:
Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-01-19, 01:33:

Well, with new tech comes new music. And you need people to make music.

Lovers of old music exist ffs. A lot of new songs are also a rehash od old song too.

New music is more young'n and most of it comp-lete crap. It does seen to be improving recently with this covid thing.

What is SCARY is what if A.I. Starts making its own music and it becomes a top 10 hit ?

Reply 95 of 106, by Caluser2000

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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-01-19, 01:47:
Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-01-19, 01:43:
Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-01-19, 01:33:

Well, with new tech comes new music. And you need people to make music.

Lovers of old music exist ffs. A lot of new songs are also a rehash od old song too.

New music is more young'n and most of it comp-lete crap. It does seen to be improving recently with this covid thing.

What is SCARY is what if A.I. Starts making its own music and it becomes a top 10 hit ?

You are taking this thread cCOMPLETELY OFF TOPIC as you and those other two gits have in t5he past.

I love sharks.

There's a glitch in the matrix.

Reply 96 of 106, by Intel486dx33

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Its not the CPU its what you do with it.
I think the 1st gen pentium made the biggest impact in the computer world.
I dont see the Ryzen CPU making any big differences in the computer world.
The Apple ARM based CPU’s however have made a big impact on the computer industry.

Reply 97 of 106, by Caluser2000

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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-01-19, 02:25:
Its not the CPU its what you do with it. I think the 1st gen pentium made the biggest impact in the computer world. I dont see t […]
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Its not the CPU its what you do with it.
I think the 1st gen pentium made the biggest impact in the computer world.
I dont see the Ryzen CPU making any big differences in the computer world.
The Apple ARM based CPU’s however have made a big impact on the computer industry.

ARM computers have been around for a looooooong time. I have 7 ARM systems from the eary to late 90s.

You do know ARM originolly stood for Acorm Risc Machine don't you?

Apple is late to the ARM party dude.

Last edited by Caluser2000 on 2021-01-19, 03:13. Edited 2 times in total.

There's a glitch in the matrix.

Reply 98 of 106, by mothergoose729

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Standard Def Steve wrote on 2021-01-18, 23:18:
How can you call them the Budget CPU when Zen 3 is beating Intel whatever-the-hell-Lake across the board, including SPEC and ga […]
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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-01-18, 21:48:

The AMD CPU was NOT much less expensive abut about 75% of the Intel equivalent.
And so this trend has continued.

AMD has always been the Budget CPU when compared to Intel equivalent.

How can you call them the Budget CPU when Zen 3 is beating Intel whatever-the-hell-Lake across the board, including SPEC and gaming metrics?

I don't get how some people keep trying to defend a company that's been sitting on the same basic desktop CPU microarchitecture since 2015. They have a ton of cash and a huge R+D team! You'd think they could do a little more than just tack on another hundred MHz (and another 10w of power draw) to Skylake each year and pass it off as a new "generation." All whist AMD, with its relatively puny R+D budget, and Apple, a newcomer to the chip design scene, have both been making some real improvements to their core CPU designs.

At least they tossed Bob Swan and brought back Pat Gelsinger to lead the company. Perhaps he'll be Intel's Lisa Su and turn the company around.

Not for a lack of trying. Intel would almost certainly be on their tick-tock cadence and if they had been able to deliver 10nm products as planned. Kaby Lake would have been a 10nm refresh instead of 14nm+, and ice lake would have debuted in 2018 - around the same time as Zen+. The issue is that they never got 10nm viable. They still don't have it viable. Internally, there is some consternation about how much more to invest in 10nm vs putting more resources in Intel 7nm.

In a very real way, TSMC beat Intel more than AMD did. AMD was smart though. Zen uses several tiny dies (chiplets) linked together on a common substrate by the infinity fabric. It has some performance downsizes, but one of the upsides is they can pack many cores more densely while still keeping costs down.

TSMC 7nm is about 30% more dense than intel 14nm. TSMC 5nm is already rather mature - Apple's m1 silicon is using TSMC's 5nm node now. Zen 4 will almost certainly be a 5nm processor, which is just one aspect of Intel's competition, because viable desktop ARM designs are in the works or have already come to market from several companies already. TSMC has already indicated that they won't increase production and open new facilities for Intel if Intel isn't interested in a long term partnership. Intel really needs their 7nm node to deliver and soon, or they need genuinely commit to going fabless.

Reply 99 of 106, by Bruninho

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@imi: I have to agree with you this time.

@Intel486dx33: What drugs are you using?

See Cal, he is definitely a professional Troll. *LMAO*

Now, seriously: Both are wrong. Apple Silicon is not an ARM CPU per se, it is just a custom SoC with ARM based instruction set. https://www.imore.com/mac-moving-apple-silicon-not-arm

@mothergoose729: Very well said there. If anything, that was the one of the best posts of this thread.

Intel has been failing to deliver with their deadlines lately, postponing stuff and they’re supposed to have the best engineering team in this world, yet they fail to break the 10nm barrier.

Apple got tired of waiting them to get over it and their failure to respect deadlines have hurt their Mac releases consistently. To a point Apple has had to release Macs with previous gen Intel cpus. That was the nail in the coffin for Apple-Intel partnership. Not to mention the overheating issues - about that, Apple has repeatedly asked them to make changes to fix it so they could work inside their MacBook designs, but Intel did not give a damn. Then Apple began (supposedly) testing AMD cpus, possibly a Plan B (a speculation that arose when AMD references were - supposedly - found in last versions of macOS Catalina code) just in case their custom silicon project did not work as expected. Note: This is what I believe that happened, a theory based on what I have been reading about last year. I do not claim that to be the 100% the truth.

Here’s a thing, Intel have two paths to follow now:

1) They insist on trying to break that barrier by themselves while the competition is already way ahead of them and this will lead them to their downfall. The more resources they put on it and fail, the quicker they fall, because other businesses they have may also suffer from that.

2) They accept defeat and try to make a long term deal with TMSC to save themselves from failure and help them to break that 10nm barrier, thus putting them back in that CPU race against AMD and Apple. There is also another problem: this can make TMSC a big player in this game some years later, with the know-how they get from working for both Apple and Intel. Again, I am just purely speculating.

Intel will be really screwed if they don’t fix their problems ASAP.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

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