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Reply 160 of 316, by robertmo

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-22, 05:01:

I just did a test with my current Win10 machine and it settled down in about 1 minute and that was with a bunch of stuff auto loading. Would have been more like 30 seconds or less if I didn't have any programs auto loading on login.

windows is starting many different boot tasks with different time of delay from start. So if you have a very fast PC you may need to wait a bit after finishing everything before it starts something else.

Reply 161 of 316, by Bruninho

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robertmo wrote on 2021-06-22, 05:50:
that's why i suggest whenever you want to do something important go to windows updates and check if there is anything to install […]
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Bruninho wrote on 2021-06-22, 05:33:

Windows 10 just chooses to do so in the worst possible moment it wants, doesn’t give a f**k if I am playing a competitive online race in a wet track and within five laps to the end in P2, nearly catching up the leader, lapping three seconds faster than him on fresh new intermediate tyres, and then DANG it just rebooted and started to auto update itself. Imagine my anger when I missed what could have been my first ever race win.

that's why i suggest whenever you want to do something important go to windows updates and check if there is anything to install, same with antivir, browser, java etc 😉
anyway i suggest doing it everytime you start your pc as it is really no fun doing just anything when windows is updating in the background without your knowledge.
I guess they could make a popup to inform you that it is updating and you may experience some delays in your work and estimated time to finish
instead it doesn't inform you and just slows the process down so it just takes way longer to update than it normally should

Luckily I do not have to do this. I no longer have a Windows PC since years ago, thanks God. I own a Mac, and the Mac never bothers me about, just leaves a red dot on Settings icon indicating that there is an OS update, so I can update when I want and the way I want to. No automatic updates. I’m practically on heaven in this department.

An user shouldnt have to bother doing that you described above - As a pro user experience/user interface designer, I am totally defending that the user should decide when and how he wants to update the operating system. The system should not keep nagging the user every day about an update or auto update itself in the worst moment possible. This should be the users choice, end period. It’s irritating to have to remember to check updates every time we turn on a computer. Classic old Windows did not have these problems; it was all the users choice to do so.

The data collection/telemetry and auto updates as well as some UI decisions (including the Control Panel discussion above) are the reason why I no longer use Windows as my main computer since 2010. I tried to turn it off as much as I could, but not everything was removed/disabled. All I have now is a VM that I only turn on once a year to renew work certificates. If my government provided a mac version of their app, I wouldnt even have a Win 10 VM in first place.

At least Macs UI/UX experience has remained the same for decades. For example, the same keyboard commands from classic macOS are still the same, even on iPadOS. This is what I call a perfect user experience. Why try to fix something that was already working? This is the question I want to Microsoft to answer when they completely f***ed up the Start Menu.

Even Linux desktop environments have some consistency with their design and user experience, Ubuntu, Debian and Mint comes to my mind as prime examples. Lately, Ubuntu has been trying some changes, most notably with GNOME 40, but AFAIK they are not as bad as what happened with Windows. I suspect Ubuntu devs are trying to get an UI closer to macOS as much as possible to try and convert some potential mac users that are not happy with the transition to Apple Silicon and the idea of their old macs being unsupported by the new macOS Monterey. These Macs are still perfectly fine for usage.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 162 of 316, by WDStudios

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chinny22 wrote on 2021-06-16, 08:27:

I'm still in no rush to upgrade from 7

zyzzle wrote on 2021-06-17, 05:14:

Not one thing is impressive or would convince me to upgrade from Win 7

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-06-17, 10:37:

On topic, I never upgraded from Windows 7

Migrating from Win7 to Win10 is a downgrade, not an upgrade.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-06-17, 05:15:

You know what would be really revolutionary? A Windows version running with Linux kernel.

Please God no. Win10 has enough compatibility problems with legacy software already.

ZellSF wrote on 2021-06-17, 12:23:

Most people don't. The only major UI difference between Windows 7 and 8/10 is the start menu, and Open Shell is free...

I really don't understand people who avoid going from Windows 7 to Windows 10 over UI differences. With a few minutes of work it'll be functionally identical.

Mmmm sorry no, the biggest UI difference is that Win7 supports both the Classic and Aero themes, which look good and were designed by competent people, while Win10 forces you onto the Metro theme, which was designed by a 5-year-old using the rectangle tool in MS Paint. And if you want to go back to using a sane theme in Win10, you have to pay for Windowblinds.

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-17, 19:05:

The real "bloat" comes from the junk that OEMs install on their systems. No.. I don't want your crappy Norton or whatever other crappy crapware you are trying to pedal.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-17, 20:12:

Does that still happen? When wifey got her new HP laptop about a year or so ago I was very very surprised how free it was of that stuff.

OMFG. That reminds me of my HP laptop. Came with Win7 and about 100 GB of HP garbage that I had to spend hours removing.

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-17, 20:57:

If you want to see what is possible in regards to an unpatched OS, go ahead and take an clean install of XP and hook it up directly to the internet with your router's firewall disabled. Then give it about 15 minutes and that computer will be completely unusable due to it having so much malware on it without you even having done anything but booting it up and logging on and letting it sit there.

I'm literally typing this from my 32-bit XP partition. No malware yet. Or at least if there is any, it's being very quiet and not sucking up a lot of resources or breaking any programs that I want to use, so it's still better than Win10.

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-17, 21:19:

If everybody was smart enough to not run on an admin account then a lot of issues would maybe go away.

But people can't be bothered to have to input admin creds whenever they want to do admin related stuff. Plus even if they did, they would still end up allowing 99% of the stuff they shouldn't.

I'm in my admin account right now. Still no malware or hackers... or at least none that are worse than Win10.

Standard Def Steve wrote on 2021-06-17, 23:53:

they should ditch the 32-bit version of Windows. No one needs to run this on a Pentium 4.

But many of us need to run 16-bit Windows programs. I'll give up 32-bit Windows when 64-bit Windows comes with NTVDM.

Since people like posting system specs:

LGA 2011
Core i7 Sandy Bridge @ 3.6 ghz
4 GB of RAM in quad-channel
Geforce GTX 780
1600 x 1200 monitor
Dual-booting WinXP Integral Edition and Win7 Pro 64-bit
-----
XP compatibility is the hill that I will die on.

Reply 163 of 316, by dr_st

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WDStudios wrote on 2021-06-22, 07:43:

Mmmm sorry no, the biggest UI difference is that Win7 supports both the Classic and Aero themes, which look good and were designed by competent people, while Win10 forces you onto the Metro theme, which was designed by a 5-year-old using the rectangle tool in MS Paint. And if you want to go back to using a sane theme in Win10, you have to pay for Windowblinds.

I too find the Vista/7 look to be the pinnacle of Windows desktop UI in terms of appearance and consistency. Win8 was a step backwards, but Win10 refined a few things. Still I like it less than Vista/7, but it doesn't take long to adjust to the looks.

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-17, 20:57:

If you want to see what is possible in regards to an unpatched OS, go ahead and take an clean install of XP and hook it up directly to the internet with your router's firewall disabled. Then give it about 15 minutes and that computer will be completely unusable due to it having so much malware on it without you even having done anything but booting it up and logging on and letting it sit there.

Well... why would anyone do that? It does not resemble in any way any reasonable workflow in today's world.

https://cloakedthargoid.wordpress.com/ - Random content on hardware, software, games and toys

Reply 164 of 316, by ZellSF

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WDStudios wrote on 2021-06-22, 07:43:
ZellSF wrote on 2021-06-17, 12:23:

Most people don't. The only major UI difference between Windows 7 and 8/10 is the start menu, and Open Shell is free...

I really don't understand people who avoid going from Windows 7 to Windows 10 over UI differences. With a few minutes of work it'll be functionally identical.

Mmmm sorry no, the biggest UI difference is that Win7 supports both the Classic and Aero themes, which look good and were designed by competent people, while Win10 forces you onto the Metro theme, which was designed by a 5-year-old using the rectangle tool in MS Paint. And if you want to go back to using a sane theme in Win10, you have to pay for Windowblinds.

I should have specified functional differences. Though that was sort of implied with the following sentence anyway.

Windows has always looked like shit (I'm always going to attribute anyone liking Aero/Luna to nostalgia) since switching away from classic themes anyway, and while the classic theme was included from Vista it didn't support the compositor and since applications increasingly relied on that not to flicker/tear then I don't feel it was a usable option.

Reply 166 of 316, by dr_st

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xcomcmdr wrote on 2021-06-22, 13:24:

XP = Fisher Price. Good riddance. It was supported for far too long.

The Luna theme is awful. The first thing I did on any XP system is change to Classic. I did that on my first Vista build too, until I realized I actually like Aero. 😀

https://cloakedthargoid.wordpress.com/ - Random content on hardware, software, games and toys

Reply 167 of 316, by Bruninho

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dr_st wrote on 2021-06-22, 13:32:
xcomcmdr wrote on 2021-06-22, 13:24:

XP = Fisher Price. Good riddance. It was supported for far too long.

The Luna theme is awful. The first thing I did on any XP system is change to Classic. I did that on my first Vista build too, until I realized I actually like Aero. 😀

Same here with XP. I installed the inexperience patcher and it just looks like an upgraded version of Windows 2000 Professional with classic 98 theme now. I call it "Windows 2002 Professional"...

Could have used Win 2000 Pro + BWC Kernel Extender, but using XP with other theme instead is actually a more "vanilla" experience. Then adding a more modern browser, and hey presto who needs Windows 10?

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 168 of 316, by cyclone3d

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robertmo wrote on 2021-06-22, 05:59:
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-22, 05:01:

I just did a test with my current Win10 machine and it settled down in about 1 minute and that was with a bunch of stuff auto loading. Would have been more like 30 seconds or less if I didn't have any programs auto loading on login.

windows is starting many different boot tasks with different time of delay from start. So if you have a very fast PC you may need to wait a bit after finishing everything before it starts something else.

Yeah, I have a crypto wallet that starts up and takes a couple minutes to verify the db, connect to the network, etc. Also have Discord and Steam, Adobe Cloud and a few other things starting up as well.

If it weren't for those, it would completely settle down very very quickly.

Yamaha modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG repository
YMF7x4 Guide
Aopen AW744L II SB-LINK

Reply 169 of 316, by xcomcmdr

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Bruninho wrote on 2021-06-22, 14:31:

Could have used Win 2000 Pro + BWC Kernel Extender, but using XP with other theme instead is actually a more "vanilla" experience. Then adding a more modern browser, and hey presto who needs Windows 10?

Those who need any kind of security use 7+, I hope.

Reply 170 of 316, by cyclone3d

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Bruninho wrote on 2021-06-22, 05:33:
Those were the days. I would totally defend Windows 98 at that time as well as OS9. The world was a better place. […]
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keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-06-20, 06:23:
This was good. Nobody ever complained about it. It existed for many years and everyone was used to it and knew exactly how to na […]
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This was good. Nobody ever complained about it. It existed for many years and everyone was used to it and knew exactly how to navigate it.
file.php?id=112859

Those were the days. I would totally defend Windows 98 at that time as well as OS9. The world was a better place.

Now we have a monster with terrible UI/UX (Windows 10/11) while Apples UI/UX is still great, fast and easy to use, but under the hood is starting to look a lot more like windows with their updates. Every time I update my Mac is about half an hour to install and reboot. But hey, I can do it manually and disable the automatic updates, so I do that when I have dinner and I just keep it running and updating while I eat. Not to mention the planned obsolescence of their old Macs. Hence why I have this avatar - “Choose wisely”.

Windows 10 just chooses to do so in the worst possible moment it wants, doesn’t give a f**k if I am playing a competitive online race in a wet track and within five laps to the end in P2, nearly catching up the leader, lapping three seconds faster than him on fresh new intermediate tyres, and then DANG it just rebooted and started to auto update itself. Imagine my anger when I missed what could have been my first ever race win.

What version of Windows 10 are you running? I've never had this happen once and I've been running Windows 10 since before release.

It shouldn't be auto restarting when you are doing something unless you have it set to update that way.

The other reason it would be doing that is in a corporate environment where they have set deadlines for updates to be installed and you have ignored the updates until the system forces an update and possible reboot to go along with it.

Yamaha modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG repository
YMF7x4 Guide
Aopen AW744L II SB-LINK

Reply 171 of 316, by Bruninho

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-22, 14:44:

What version of Windows 10 are you running? I've never had this happen once and I've been running Windows 10 since before release.

It shouldn't be auto restarting when you are doing something unless you have it set to update that way.

The other reason it would be doing that is in a corporate environment where they have set deadlines for updates to be installed and you have ignored the updates until the system forces an update and possible reboot to go along with it.

No idea, I don't have that computer anymore. That happened years ago when I was still active in simracing competitions and it wasn't in a "corporate environment" either.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 172 of 316, by Bruninho

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xcomcmdr wrote on 2021-06-22, 14:44:
Bruninho wrote on 2021-06-22, 14:31:

Could have used Win 2000 Pro + BWC Kernel Extender, but using XP with other theme instead is actually a more "vanilla" experience. Then adding a more modern browser, and hey presto who needs Windows 10?

Those who need any kind of security use 7+, I hope.

I am behind a router firewall. But yes, those who are pretty scared about their data security on Windows should use 7.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 173 of 316, by Jo22

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WDStudios wrote on 2021-06-22, 07:43:
Standard Def Steve wrote on 2021-06-17, 23:53:

they should ditch the 32-bit version of Windows. No one needs to run this on a Pentium 4.

But many of us need to run 16-bit Windows programs. I'll give up 32-bit Windows when 64-bit Windows comes with NTVDM.

Interestingly, the x86 versions of Windows Vista and 7 had a slightly improved WoW, despite their degenerated NTVDM (broken EMS, removal of VGA thanks to WDDM) :
If Aero Glass was enabled, the GUI elements looked fine and Win16 applications looked okay in different colour depths.
I think that was because another rendering method was used when Aero was enabled.

By the way, that remembers me of all the power users that disabled Aero because of "performance reasons" .
Always puzzled me how they came to that erroneous conclusion.
Aero Glass uses the graphics card, all the GUI elements are thus translated into 3D or 2,5D elements and stored in the video memory in which the pixel-shader programs handle them.

On Windows x86-64, there's OTVDM/WineVDM, a third-party program that can execute Win16 programs.
It's not perfect yet, but still improving. 😀

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 174 of 316, by yawetaG

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Discrete_BOB_058 wrote on 2021-06-17, 10:01:

Windows is getting heavier day by days. In gaming sessions it automatically takes up 1gb of vram for itself and 3gb in no load. Windows XP was the last time Windows was "properly optimized". I would say even Android or Linux or iOS is better 'always connected' and 'live' device than Windows Vista and later.

Windows now requires a complete remodelling internally.

Modern Linux variants with the more fancy GUIs also require 3-4 Gb of RAM just to have a functional GUI. And when I write "functional" in the case of Linux that often means "with really annoying minor bugs".

Reply 175 of 316, by DosFreak

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Jo22 wrote on 2021-06-22, 16:12:
Interestingly, the x86 versions of Windows Vista and 7 had a slightly improved WoW, despite their degenerated NTVDM (broken EMS, […]
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WDStudios wrote on 2021-06-22, 07:43:
Standard Def Steve wrote on 2021-06-17, 23:53:

they should ditch the 32-bit version of Windows. No one needs to run this on a Pentium 4.

But many of us need to run 16-bit Windows programs. I'll give up 32-bit Windows when 64-bit Windows comes with NTVDM.

Interestingly, the x86 versions of Windows Vista and 7 had a slightly improved WoW, despite their degenerated NTVDM (broken EMS, removal of VGA thanks to WDDM) :
If Aero Glass was enabled, the GUI elements looked fine and Win16 applications looked okay in different colour depths.
I think that was because another rendering method was used when Aero was enabled.

By the way, that remembers me of all the power users that disabled Aero because of "performance reasons" .
Always puzzled me how they came to that erroneous conclusion.
Aero Glass uses the graphics card, all the GUI elements are thus translated into 3D or 2,5D elements and stored in the video memory in which the pixel-shader programs handle them.

On Windows x86-64, there's OTVDM/WineVDM, a third-party program that can execute Win16 programs.
It's not perfect yet, but still improving. 😀

Before you judge people realize that there are a ton of different hardware and drivers. I've seen it where switching to the xp driver on Vista and 7 fixed that issue if you wanted a usable experience. You don't need to be a power user.

I don't recall anything about broken ems in windows but it's been forever since I bothered with ntvdm. I faintly recall hardware preventing ems from being allocated, disabling that hardware "fixed" the issue but it was also thought to be an NTVDM issue as well? It's been a long time since I've thought about it. Emsmagic may have been another solution if you wanted to run DOS programs that required EMS in NTVDM instead of a VM or emulator.

/EDIT dvwjr had some thoughts and a workaround for it back in the day. The workaround is in the DOSBox beta forum but dvwjr requested it to be private since it requires registry changes that you really have to know what you are doing. He last logged in 3/2021 so if interested send him a PM. Better off just using DOSBox, IMO.
Re: Cannot enable EMS under Win2K...
Re: Help! Request info on WinXP expanded memory manager

How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Make your games work offline

Reply 176 of 316, by Jo22

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^Never mind. 🙁 I didn't mean to judge, seriously - my statements were solely based on observations of my personal milieu back then,
as well as forum postings in various computer forums were my fellow citizens used to be around.

At the time, Aero Glass required a Geforce 5200 or higher GPU, because of Pixel-Shader 2.0.
The driver for the "horribly" (-at the time-) Geforce FX was shipped with Vista, I remember.

In fact, a Vista driver (WDDM 1.0) was required on Windows 7 to make Aero Glass work with the 5200.
While people bashed the 5200 almost constantly, it was a nice card for GUI acceleration.

Because, the Vista Composition Engine or how it was called didn't accelerate GDI anymore
and newer GPUs lost their dedicated 2D graphics cores at the time.

I think there was an article at TOMs PC report or how it was called.
It was in 2016 or so, when I posted some links..
Re: Best PCI VGA card for Windows 3.11 performance?

So having Aero Glass enabled at the time was actually useful to my understanding, not just eye candy.
However, at the time, no one I knew or heard of supported that idea for reasons that I never found out.

Nowadays, since Windows 7, GDI is accelerated again. At least at for the very basic graphics primitves.

Also double-checked the EMS issues. Haven't found the original article, but overall that's what I was thinking of, I suppose:

"no more EMS support in XP

Is anybody really surprised? MS hasn't fixed even obvious NTVDM bugs in years, esp. with Vista and 7, and their priorities these days
are with Win8, Metro, tablets, phones, C++, HTML5, XBox360, etc. They long ago gave up DOS support.
Rumor already says that Win9 Home editions will be 64-bit only, and I have no idea how well Hyper-V 64-bit will work, even in Win8 (only two weeks away).

Anyways, I read a while back that some machines made these days were incapable of EMS under NTVDM anyways,
which is probably why it's disabled by default. For sure, NTVDM is "ancient" code to them, basically unmaintained.
I think DPMI has been heavily preferred over EMS for years, which makes such DPMI bugs all the more painful as it was the only reliable way. 🙁

Anyways, nidud, have you tried the http://www.emsmagic.com/ TSR? It should still work, so that's probably your best bet."

Source: http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/board_entry … SC&category=all

I suppose that posts like this were the reasons that I did read about EMS Magic at some point and learned about the new limitations of NTVDM in Vista and later.

"The other use for EMS Magic is on Windows Vista systems. Although the 32-bit versions of Windows Vista can run DOS programs, there is no support for EMS regardless of the computer's hardware and memory configuration. In this case, EMS Magic is the only solution for providing EMS for DOS programs."

Source: http://www.emsmagic.com/manual/intro.html

Edit: I'd also like to apologize for my poor English, it must be horrible to read for native speaker (it sounds very wooden I think). 🙁
Finding the right words though is getting more and more difficult for me, not sure why. Maybe some late complications of an unnoticed covid infection.
My hearing lost a few KHz also since this year. Anyway, I should be grateful for being still alive, I guess. Things could be much worse these days.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 177 of 316, by The Serpent Rider

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By the way, that remembers me of all the power users that disabled Aero because of "performance reasons" .

Vista Aero theme was very capricious to end software. Constantly switching between fancy and simplified mode when launching various games or benchmarks. Aero also occupied a hefty amount of VRAM (for that time anyway), which also was a problem for games.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 178 of 316, by darry

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Another reason to get the Pro version

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/what … 11-requirements

  Internet connection: Internet connectivity is necessary to perform updates, and to download and use some features.Windows 11 Home edition requires an Internet connection and a Microsoft Account to complete device setup on first use.