BitWrangler wrote on 2021-07-24, 17:23:

If'n you only wanna run pre-2010 stuffs, you can get yourself a ~$100 windoze tablet, and epoxy a wii-mote each side of it, hook 'em up by bluetooth and use a utility to assign the buttons/4-ways. 🤣

😁 source: https://twitter.com/protosphere_/status/14137 … 2039961600?s=20

That one looks a tad hefty 🤣

Kerr Avon wrote on 2021-07-25, 22:28:

Most of my games are from GOG, my earlier games are on disc, and a few are on Steam. GOG is fantastic, and I don't go elsewhere […]
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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-07-23, 20:02:

Well, since you can install non-Steam applications, somebody could just go and install the games from somewhere like GOG and not have to worry about DRM or having to be online.

Most of my games are from GOG, my earlier games are on disc, and a few are on Steam. GOG is fantastic, and I don't go elsewhere if the game I'm after is on GOG.

ZellSF wrote on 2021-07-24, 09:58:

With the size of this thing it's already very far from portable. I would rather just take a ultraportable laptop + controller.

The problem is the screen, as always with a handheld. The screen should be as large as possible, the larger the better (within reason, of course), but for portability the item as a whole should be as small as possible. Striking a balance between the two considerations always means that one or both of them suffers.

The solution I am *still* waiting for (it's 2021, we're supposed to be in the future) is to have a handheld that doesn't have a screen built in. Instead, you just plug your spectacles in, and I mean normal sized spectacles, not goggles or anything else large or uncomfortable. And each lens of the spectacles can display a different image, so you can use them as virtual reality too. Actually, make them wireless, and also the lenses cam be just straightforward transparent, for people with perfect vision, or corrective lenses for people with bad eyesight. The 'screen' size and quality can be amazing, then. And since the screens are so small (being the size of spectacles' lenses) then I'd imagine the power required to run them would be quite low. And add both speakers and an earphone socket for the sound.

Make the handheld part something like a really good controller pad, but with a couple of mouse touch-pad things (like the Steam Deck), maybe add a small physical keyboard (for quick text entry, it's probably going to be too small to be used for controlling games), give it a decent battery life, and do everything you can to make it invulnerable to the system problems that Windows updates can cause.

But since I've yet to see these TV-spectacles for sale anywhere, even though they would obviously prove really popular, I suppose they aren't technically possible yet, at least not in a form that's inexpensive enough to sell at a profit?

The main problem with prescription lenses is that prescriptions generally change a bit every year. This would get extremely expensive really quickly.
Another obstacle would be that they would also have to be special ordered from the company that makes them as places that make normal lenses would not want to touch this with a 100-foot pole due to the extra training and expenses when they have lenses that are made incorrectly or assemblies that are broken while making them.

Plus you would have to have the ability to focus very close up when using them as a display. That would add another layer of complication.

Then you have the fact that there would have to be some sort of warranty on these because people are generally not going to be willing to pay some extraordinary amount for a setup like this unless they have a guarantee that if they break or get broken that they will be replaced for free or for a small co-pay.

There also has to be a big enough market for any company to actually decide to make them in the first place.

And can you imagine the nightmare of people trying to use these while driving? You think distracted driving accident numbers are high.. just wait until something like this hits the market. There would need to be a way to lock out the display portion if the person is driving... This is already a huge mess with cell phones and passengers because if the vehicle is moving and driving mode is included on the phone, it will not let the passengers use the phone because it detects that the phone is moving over a certain speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SElZABp5M3U

Looks pretty cool. The memory is really interesting. DDR5 memory running in quad channel. They are trying to feed the integrated GPU.

That's not the point. If I buy a portable console I expect every game (except online ones like MMORPG) to work in every place, having or not internet connection.

I don't know how this portable will end up working but in general I'd be surprised if any modern products would work differently from modern phones concept: some tech product could be sold "even free" cause from a closed box buying concept the market switched to modern never ending related paying sw/services. Much modern tech feels like not being necessary the main product itself but the sw galaxy as paying services. The whole concept such physical game/music disks seems gone so basically there's nothing to own but an account and our own credit card connected to the account, dematerialized and decentralized from the user. User that in the past was called usually "owner" of a product (a TV, a console, a computer..), became "consumer" nowdays just only "user".

But still I hope this portable will be all around the gaming in the old way, not depending necessary on the online services to just work with the already installed games. From the few previews around it seems like a nice device maybe a bit large and heavy and when they talk about from 2 to 8 hours of battery life it might not be convincing but the capabilities of such x64 portable device would make it great also for old games more interesting than newer ones.

Had a little realisation about this thing this morning. My main rig these days is a laptop, which is used for light gaming and 2D drafting. It travels with me between 2 offices and runs docked with external periphs 99% of the time.

The only annoyance is the desk space required to dock a 15" laptop. So a few weeks back I was looking at Intel NUCs and the like. Much friendlier on the desk! But for those few occasions when I'm between desks and I'm able to flip a laptop open, the NUC is useless. A Steam Deck with Windows installed would be perfect though.

Luckily it's not available here yet, so I have a good year to cool off and convince myself it's a dumb idea.

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-07-26, 02:17:

The main problem with prescription lenses is that prescriptions generally change a bit every year. This would get extremely expe […]
Show full quote

The main problem with prescription lenses is that prescriptions generally change a bit every year. This would get extremely expensive really quickly.
Another obstacle would be that they would also have to be special ordered from the company that makes them as places that make normal lenses would not want to touch this with a 100-foot pole due to the extra training and expenses when they have lenses that are made incorrectly or assemblies that are broken while making them.

Plus you would have to have the ability to focus very close up when using them as a display. That would add another layer of complication.

Then you have the fact that there would have to be some sort of warranty on these because people are generally not going to be willing to pay some extraordinary amount for a setup like this unless they have a guarantee that if they break or get broken that they will be replaced for free or for a small co-pay.

There also has to be a big enough market for any company to actually decide to make them in the first place.

And can you imagine the nightmare of people trying to use these while driving? You think distracted driving accident numbers are high.. just wait until something like this hits the market. There would need to be a way to lock out the display portion if the person is driving... This is already a huge mess with cell phones and passengers because if the vehicle is moving and driving mode is included on the phone, it will not let the passengers use the phone because it detects that the phone is moving over a certain speed.

You make some very good points... unfortunately! Consider my dreams well and truly shattered.

What about, instead of transparent screens built into normal prescription glasses, instead we could have just a pair of non-transparent screens that can clip on to your head, like a VR headset but with none of the bulk, hopefully? These could cover the eyes of people who don't wear glasses, and cover the front of the glasses worn by people who need glasses. They don't even need to be too close to the eyes, they can be a small distance away, if need be.

Alright, so you'd be a lot less aware of your surroundings, especially if you chose to buy a headset that deliberate cuts off your peripheral vision, and you'd have to take them off to do anything in the real world, but it does remove most of the problems you point out with my original idea.

How viable do you think this idea is? And what sort of power consumption would two such screens require? Battery life is always a real consideration on a portable system, is the display still a big power drain, as it was with the laptops and handheld?

Kerr Avon wrote on 2021-08-13, 21:42:

What about, instead of transparent screens built into normal prescription glasses, instead we could have just a pair of non-transparent screens that can clip on to your head, like a VR headset but with none of the bulk, hopefully? These could cover the eyes of people who don't wear glasses, and cover the front of the glasses worn by people who need glasses. They don't even need to be too close to the eyes, they can be a small distance away, if need be.

AR glasses are already a thing, you have Microsoft's Hololens, Google Glasses, and Apple was supposedly working on something.

AR can't provide the same experience as VR though. VR purposely cuts out all the surrounding light. Without that people would probably not find it better than a 3D screen in front of them versus it being the world they are able to see. A small amount of light leakage on a VR headset is bad enough already.

But who knows where we'll be in 5-10 years in terms of tech.

Direct retina projection was a thing that was happening.

I think this short clip from The WAN Show (a podcast from the Linus Tech Tips people) sums up very well what makes the Steam Deck so cool. It's innovative hardware, sharply priced for what you're getting, and the fact that it stimulates the improvement of Linux as a gaming platform "frees gamers from the Windows ecosystem".

And this is coming from Linus Sebastian, who (despite his first name) is a die-hard Windows user!

I couldn't agree with them more on this. The Steam Deck is innovative, both in terms of hardware and software. I'm in no rush to get one, since I don't game often enough these days, but this will be good for innovation, both on the hardware and (open-source) software front. And the fact that over 110000 pre-orders for the Steam Deck were placed during the first 90 minutes alone, selling out the expected Q4 2021 winter holiday batch on day one of pre-orders going live, is very encouraging.

Various reviewers have already been allowed to play with engineering samples of the Steam Deck, so it's no vaporware. Now let's see if Valve and AMD can deliver on the manufacturing front, without delay, and without having to raise the prices that they initially announced.

I'm of the opinion, let's wait and see. You're shoehorning a full fledged x86 CPU into a small form factor, it's expensive, the base storage is paltry and slow, and you're running windows games on an abstracted layer in linux (but at least they're on a rolling release dist now).

Generally I don't think its particularly impressive that it runs smooth in mobile mode, considering the screen is small and doesn't require a large resolution... wonder how it will do in docked mode, and how it handles messing with graphics settings in games vis a vis quality, higher res, heat dissipation in these modes, etc

Also, how will it handle future games?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding its target audience but these are some of the benefits of using a console - you don't have to worry about future proofing for an entire generation, or tweaking vid settings, or having problems with your base OS, etc.. Steamdeck presents all these potential issues AND you're still locked into the hardware.

@drosse1meyer it's absolutely fair (and wise) to maintain a wait-and-see approach, since the production units aren't out yet.

A few things, though:

It has been confirmed that even the base model (that comes with just eMMC storage) can be upgraded with an NVMe M.2 drive. And sure, it's a lower resolution than what people typically game at on their desktop PCs, but that thing is a portable device that runs Triple-A PC game titles at a playable framerate, with reasonable battery life. No matter how you look at it, that's pretty impressive!

As for heat dissipation, check out this part of Linus' review video in which he uses a heat camera to monitor the Steam Deck's thermals. It stays surprisingly cool. (You can also see it run some prominent game titles in other parts of that video, to get some idea of the performance, at least in a pre-release model.)

the SoC in the Steam Deck has been designed by AMD specifically for the Steam Deck, with an RDNA 2 GPU that makes it fairly future-proof.

As for being "locked in the hardware", how exactly do you mean that? The OS that the Steam Deck will be shipping with, SteamOS 3.0, will be freely available for people to install on other x86 systems, and Valve has confirmed that users will be able to install Windows or other operating systems on the Steam Deck if they want. Also, the thing has regular USB ports and HDMI video through USB-C. Initially, Valve won't even be releasing a first-party dock for it yet, let alone one with a proprietary interface. I don't see any risk of vendor lock-in. Quite on the contrary, actually.

drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 15:11:

I'm of the opinion, let's wait and see. You're shoehorning a full fledged x86 CPU into a small form factor, it's expensive, the base storage is paltry and slow, and you're running windows games on an abstracted layer in linux (but at least they're on a rolling release dist now).

How is a portable gaming PC for $400 expensive? Yes, eMMC is slow, but spend more or install an NVME drive if that's an issue.

You're comparing this to consoles, but this is closer to a Nintendo Switch, and spec wise crushes that.

There have been other devices like this, but they have all been almost double the price and were slower.

drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 15:11:

I'm of the opinion, let's wait and see. You're shoehorning a full fledged x86 CPU into a small form factor, it's expensive, the […]
Show full quote

I'm of the opinion, let's wait and see. You're shoehorning a full fledged x86 CPU into a small form factor, it's expensive, the base storage is paltry and slow, and you're running windows games on an abstracted layer in linux (but at least they're on a rolling release dist now).

Generally I don't think its particularly impressive that it runs smooth in mobile mode, considering the screen is small and doesn't require a large resolution... wonder how it will do in docked mode, and how it handles messing with graphics settings in games vis a vis quality, higher res, heat dissipation in these modes, etc

Also, how will it handle future games?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding its target audience but these are some of the benefits of using a console - you don't have to worry about future proofing for an entire generation, or tweaking vid settings, or having problems with your base OS, etc.. Steamdeck presents all these potential issues AND you're still locked into the hardware.

It has more in common with a small laptop than with the switch. There is no docked mode. You can connect a display through a type C adapter if you want but none of the clocks will change.

This is a handheld computer. It has all of the pros and cons of any PC. You get more freedom to use your device as you please but it requires more effort and the hardware is more expensive.

Since you can upgrade the storage yourself I would say that base model with a intel 660p or similar SSD makes the most sense. In the US that would bring total costs with a 1tb drive to around 550$. Not bad.

digger wrote on 2021-08-14, 16:10:

@drosse1meyer it's absolutely fair (and wise) to maintain a wait-and-see approach, since the production units aren't out yet. […]
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@drosse1meyer it's absolutely fair (and wise) to maintain a wait-and-see approach, since the production units aren't out yet.

A few things, though:

It has been confirmed that even the base model (that comes with just eMMC storage) can be upgraded with an NVMe M.2 drive. And sure, it's a lower resolution than what people typically game at on their desktop PCs, but that thing is a portable device that runs Triple-A PC game titles at a playable framerate, with reasonable battery life. No matter how you look at it, that's pretty impressive!

As for heat dissipation, check out this part of Linus' review video in which he uses a heat camera to monitor the Steam Deck's thermals. It stays surprisingly cool. (You can also see it run some prominent game titles in other parts of that video, to get some idea of the performance, at least in a pre-release model.)

the SoC in the Steam Deck has been designed by AMD specifically for the Steam Deck, with an RDNA 2 GPU that makes it fairly future-proof.

As for being "locked in the hardware", how exactly do you mean that? The OS that the Steam Deck will be shipping with, SteamOS 3.0, will be freely available for people to install on other x86 systems, and Valve has confirmed that users will be able to install Windows or other operating systems on the Steam Deck if they want. Also, the thing has regular USB ports and HDMI video through USB-C. Initially, Valve won't even be releasing a first-party dock for it yet, let alone one with a proprietary interface. I don't see any risk of vendor lock-in. Quite on the contrary, actually.

"locked in" meaning that you can't really upgrade anything (aside from storage), which is a large part of the appeal of PC gaming, considering how quickly it changes relative to consoles . I guess we'll see how well AMD has scaled their CPU and custom GPU, given their past mobile offerings.

SScorpio wrote on 2021-08-14, 16:15:

How is a portable gaming PC for $400 expensive? Yes, eMMC is slow, but spend more or install an NVME drive if that's an issue. […]
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drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 15:11:

I'm of the opinion, let's wait and see. You're shoehorning a full fledged x86 CPU into a small form factor, it's expensive, the base storage is paltry and slow, and you're running windows games on an abstracted layer in linux (but at least they're on a rolling release dist now).

How is a portable gaming PC for $400 expensive? Yes, eMMC is slow, but spend more or install an NVME drive if that's an issue.

You're comparing this to consoles, but this is closer to a Nintendo Switch, and spec wise crushes that.

There have been other devices like this, but they have all been almost double the price and were slower.

What are you comparing it to? A full fledged gaming PC? Then yeah, $400 is cheap. To a console, or Switch? I would say its an even wash at best. Sure it has decent specs, but you also have to take into account other things such as a much more mature hardware + ecosystem + OS etc. offered by the Big 3.

(Disclosure: I don't own a Switch or next gen console, just a base PS4 and a gaming rig.)

mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-08-14, 16:15:

It has more in common with a small laptop than with the switch. There is no docked mode. You can connect a display through a typ […]
Show full quote

drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 15:11:

I'm of the opinion, let's wait and see. You're shoehorning a full fledged x86 CPU into a small form factor, it's expensive, the […]
Show full quote

I'm of the opinion, let's wait and see. You're shoehorning a full fledged x86 CPU into a small form factor, it's expensive, the base storage is paltry and slow, and you're running windows games on an abstracted layer in linux (but at least they're on a rolling release dist now).

Generally I don't think its particularly impressive that it runs smooth in mobile mode, considering the screen is small and doesn't require a large resolution... wonder how it will do in docked mode, and how it handles messing with graphics settings in games vis a vis quality, higher res, heat dissipation in these modes, etc

Also, how will it handle future games?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding its target audience but these are some of the benefits of using a console - you don't have to worry about future proofing for an entire generation, or tweaking vid settings, or having problems with your base OS, etc.. Steamdeck presents all these potential issues AND you're still locked into the hardware.

It has more in common with a small laptop than with the switch. There is no docked mode. You can connect a display through a type C adapter if you want but none of the clocks will change.

This is a handheld computer. It has all of the pros and cons of any PC. You get more freedom to use your device as you please but it requires more effort and the hardware is more expensive.

Since you can upgrade the storage yourself I would say that base model with a intel 660p or similar SSD makes the most sense. In the US that would bring total costs with a 1tb drive to around 550$. Not bad.

I think they are planning on offering a dock mode at least according to wikipedia. Point taken about the freedom bit, but that seems to be something that would be valued by a much smaller segment of the gaming population. In that vein it will be interesting to see if or how much valve locks this down and tries to prevent hacking etc. Remember when PS3 offered the ability to install linux?

Kerr Avon wrote on 2021-08-13, 21:42:

You make some very good points... unfortunately! Consider my dreams well and truly shattered. […]
Show full quote

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-07-26, 02:17:

The main problem with prescription lenses is that prescriptions generally change a bit every year. This would get extremely expe […]
Show full quote

The main problem with prescription lenses is that prescriptions generally change a bit every year. This would get extremely expensive really quickly.
Another obstacle would be that they would also have to be special ordered from the company that makes them as places that make normal lenses would not want to touch this with a 100-foot pole due to the extra training and expenses when they have lenses that are made incorrectly or assemblies that are broken while making them.

Plus you would have to have the ability to focus very close up when using them as a display. That would add another layer of complication.

Then you have the fact that there would have to be some sort of warranty on these because people are generally not going to be willing to pay some extraordinary amount for a setup like this unless they have a guarantee that if they break or get broken that they will be replaced for free or for a small co-pay.

There also has to be a big enough market for any company to actually decide to make them in the first place.

And can you imagine the nightmare of people trying to use these while driving? You think distracted driving accident numbers are high.. just wait until something like this hits the market. There would need to be a way to lock out the display portion if the person is driving... This is already a huge mess with cell phones and passengers because if the vehicle is moving and driving mode is included on the phone, it will not let the passengers use the phone because it detects that the phone is moving over a certain speed.

You make some very good points... unfortunately! Consider my dreams well and truly shattered.

What about, instead of transparent screens built into normal prescription glasses, instead we could have just a pair of non-transparent screens that can clip on to your head, like a VR headset but with none of the bulk, hopefully? These could cover the eyes of people who don't wear glasses, and cover the front of the glasses worn by people who need glasses. They don't even need to be too close to the eyes, they can be a small distance away, if need be.

Alright, so you'd be a lot less aware of your surroundings, especially if you chose to buy a headset that deliberate cuts off your peripheral vision, and you'd have to take them off to do anything in the real world, but it does remove most of the problems you point out with my original idea.

How viable do you think this idea is? And what sort of power consumption would two such screens require? Battery life is always a real consideration on a portable system, is the display still a big power drain, as it was with the laptops and handheld?

I'm not sure if it would be less bulky than current VR headsets, especially since you would most likely want to cut out external light so the power needed for the screen backlights need to be much less. Then again I don't design this kind of stuff so who knows.

What I would really like to see is adjustable lenses such as the ones mentioned here:
https://www.osapublishing.org/oe/fulltext.cfm … -1221&id=357441

That or you could wear contact lenses.
I have very bad astigmatism and contacts don't like to stay oriented in the correct direction. When I tilt my head, I can lose focus really quickly as the contacts have a specific weighted spot which causes them to rotate out of place . I can also only wear contacts for a few hours before they start messing up. I've actually had a contact pop out of my eye when I wore them all day.

drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 20:51:

Sure it has dcent specs, but you also have to take into account other things such as a much more mature hardware + ecosystem offered by the Big 3.

x86 hardware has a very long pedigree by comparison to consoles which virtually wipe the slate clean and start fresh hardware blueprints for each generation.

Not-to-mention a software base accumulated across literal decades - in Steam, Valve already has a larger, more mature software ecosystem than any console : it was already 14 years old when the Switch was first released!

Valve's market approach here is primarily based around form factor and trends. The genius of it is that they don't need to foster a whole new software ecosystem to complement the hardware - in large part, it already exists.

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-08-14, 21:32:

x86 hardware has a very long pedigree by comparison to consoles which virtually wipe the slate clean and start fresh hardware bl […]
Show full quote

drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 20:51:

Sure it has dcent specs, but you also have to take into account other things such as a much more mature hardware + ecosystem offered by the Big 3.

x86 hardware has a very long pedigree by comparison to consoles which virtually wipe the slate clean and start fresh hardware blueprints for each generation.

Not-to-mention a software base accumulated across literal decades - in Steam, Valve already has a larger, more mature software ecosystem than any console : it was already 14 years old when the Switch was first released!

Valve's market approach here is primarily based around form factor and trends. The genius of it is that they don't need to foster a whole new software ecosystem to complement the hardware - in large part, it already exists.

No one is arguing that PC gaming has been around forever, my point is about overall user experience and tightness of integrations (hw/os/peripherals/app store) and ease of use, which is part of a consoles appeal, you don't need to look much further than how many consoles they sell.

I don't think its a big secret that in many cases, retro games downloaded from steam on a modern rig require additional (sometimes significant) fidgeting to get working... hell thats why a lot of us build retro rigs right?