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What do you think about Steam Deck handheld PC ?

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Reply 60 of 67, by Shreddoc

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drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 21:38:
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-08-14, 21:32:
x86 hardware has a very long pedigree by comparison to consoles which virtually wipe the slate clean and start fresh hardware bl […]
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drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 20:51:

Sure it has dcent specs, but you also have to take into account other things such as a much more mature hardware + ecosystem offered by the Big 3.

x86 hardware has a very long pedigree by comparison to consoles which virtually wipe the slate clean and start fresh hardware blueprints for each generation.

Not-to-mention a software base accumulated across literal decades - in Steam, Valve already has a larger, more mature software ecosystem than any console : it was already 14 years old when the Switch was first released!

Valve's market approach here is primarily based around form factor and trends. The genius of it is that they don't need to foster a whole new software ecosystem to complement the hardware - in large part, it already exists.

No one is arguing that PC gaming has been around forever, my point is about overall tightness of integrations (hw/os/peripherals/app store) and ease of use, which is part of a consoles appeal, you don't need to look much further than how many consoles they sell.

Standardisation of hardware enables said 'tightness'. Implementation is another matter, but that's a challenge every new generation faces, console or otherwise. The ingredients for success are certainly all there.

Reply 61 of 67, by drosse1meyer

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Shreddoc wrote on 2021-08-14, 21:50:
drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 21:38:
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-08-14, 21:32:

x86 hardware has a very long pedigree by comparison to consoles which virtually wipe the slate clean and start fresh hardware blueprints for each generation.

Not-to-mention a software base accumulated across literal decades - in Steam, Valve already has a larger, more mature software ecosystem than any console : it was already 14 years old when the Switch was first released!

Valve's market approach here is primarily based around form factor and trends. The genius of it is that they don't need to foster a whole new software ecosystem to complement the hardware - in large part, it already exists.

No one is arguing that PC gaming has been around forever, my point is about overall tightness of integrations (hw/os/peripherals/app store) and ease of use, which is part of a consoles appeal, you don't need to look much further than how many consoles they sell.

Standardisation of hardware enables said 'tightness'. Implementation is another matter, but that's a challenge every new generation faces, console or otherwise. The ingredients for success are certainly all there.

I think Apple would beg to differ on that 🤣

At any rate, its clear im in the minority here, and this is just my opinion of course. I have nothing against console or PC gaming, I do both equally. It will be nice to see another good mobile gaming option outside of our phones.

P1: Packard Bell - 233 MMX, Voodoo1, 64 MB, ALS100+
P2-V2: Dell Dimension - 400 Mhz, Voodoo2, 256 MB
P!!! Custom: 1 Ghz, GeForce2 Pro/64MB, 384 MB

Reply 62 of 67, by Shreddoc

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drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 22:00:
Shreddoc wrote on 2021-08-14, 21:50:
drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 21:38:

No one is arguing that PC gaming has been around forever, my point is about overall tightness of integrations (hw/os/peripherals/app store) and ease of use, which is part of a consoles appeal, you don't need to look much further than how many consoles they sell.

Standardisation of hardware enables said 'tightness'. Implementation is another matter, but that's a challenge every new generation faces, console or otherwise. The ingredients for success are certainly all there.

I think Apple would beg to differ on that 🤣

Absolutely - arguments about the advantages of curated ecosystems were also made against Android, during the early iPhone years. And while some people do strongly adhere to curated Brand ecosystems such as Apple's, "you don't need to look much further than how many [more Android phones] sell", as a wise man once said.

Reply 63 of 67, by digger

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drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 20:54:

Point taken about the freedom bit, but that seems to be something that would be valued by a much smaller segment of the gaming population. In that vein it will be interesting to see if or how much valve locks this down and tries to prevent hacking etc. Remember when PS3 offered the ability to install linux?

There was a big difference in the case of the PS3, though: even when Linux support was initially officially offered on that console, Linux wouldn't be allowed direct access to the low-level hardware. Instead, it ran on top of a hypervisor. Also (probably for this reason), officially released PS3 games never ran on Linux, but used Sony's proprietary closed-source stack.

Unofficial Linux support was later hacked back into the PS3 by the hacker community. I assume at that point, the hypervisor was circumvented as well, and Linux would finally run bare metal on it. But this was beyond what Sony initially offered and allowd.

In the case of the Steam Deck, Valve has explicitly mentioned in the FAQ that people will be free to install Windows and/or other software on the Steam Deck. Also, the OS that it will officially be shipping with, Steam OS 3.0, is open source too. It will basically be a spin of Arch Linux. It is well known and open, so if the Steam Deck initially ships with it, I don't see how Valve will be able to lock the platform down later in its lifecycle, like Sony did with the PS3. Also, there wouldn't be anything for Valve to gain from such a step. Sony got slammed with a class action lawsuit when they suddenly removed "Other OS" support from the PS3 in a firmware update, since they basically took away an advertised feature, after people had bought it. Why would Valve, with interests in the open source community, want to deal with the uproar, and the loss of goodwill that would cause them? If anything, it is in Valve's interest to sell this as a hackable and customizable device.

Also, this new SoC from AMD will probably eventually find its way into other devices such as laptops, tablets, and possibly other game consoles as well. Open source RDNA 2 drivers for the GPU are (or will be) upstreamed in the mainline Linux kernel and the Mesa project. It will not be a proprietary closed architecture like the Sony PS3.

Reply 64 of 67, by drosse1meyer

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digger wrote on 2021-08-14, 22:31:
There was a big difference in the case of the PS3, though: even when Linux support was initially officially offered on that cons […]
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drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 20:54:

Point taken about the freedom bit, but that seems to be something that would be valued by a much smaller segment of the gaming population. In that vein it will be interesting to see if or how much valve locks this down and tries to prevent hacking etc. Remember when PS3 offered the ability to install linux?

There was a big difference in the case of the PS3, though: even when Linux support was initially officially offered on that console, Linux wouldn't be allowed direct access to the low-level hardware. Instead, it ran on top of a hypervisor. Also (probably for this reason), officially released PS3 games never ran on Linux, but used Sony's proprietary closed-source stack.

Unofficial Linux support was later hacked back into the PS3 by the hacker community. I assume at that point, the hypervisor was circumvented as well, and Linux would finally run bare metal on it. But this was beyond what Sony initially offered and allowd.

In the case of the Steam Deck, Valve has explicitly mentioned in the FAQ that people will be free to install Windows and/or other software on the Steam Deck. Also, the OS that it will officially be shipping with, Steam OS 3.0, is open source too. It will basically be a spin of Arch Linux. It is well known and open, so if the Steam Deck initially ships with it, I don't see how Valve will be able to lock the platform down later in its lifecycle, like Sony did with the PS3. Also, there wouldn't be anything for Valve to gain from such a step. Sony got slammed with a class action lawsuit when they suddenly removed "Other OS" support from the PS3 in a firmware update, since they basically took away an advertised feature, after people had bought it. Why would Valve, with interests in the open source community, want to deal with the uproar, and the loss of goodwill that would cause them? If anything, it is in Valve's interest to sell this as a hackable and customizable device.

Also, this new SoC from AMD will probably eventually find its way into other devices such as laptops, tablets, and possibly other game consoles as well. Open source RDNA 2 drivers for the GPU are (or will be) upstreamed in the mainline Linux kernel and the Mesa project. It will not be a proprietary closed architecture like the Sony PS3.

Yea Arch is a rolling release, it will (should) be much quicker to support and implement features, fixes, and other things (or break them). I would think that there has to be something on the device or OS that is closed or secret for cheat-busting, I believe this has been a major issue with a lot of past support of games in linux and part of why they're changing OS.

As far as ps3 linux, I guess my point was more along the lines of, linux support was definitely touted by Sony (since the ps2 era) and later revoked for security reasons (probably best considering their history)... but ultimately how many people actually used this feature or was their primary reason for purchase (I cant find any numbers)? Or put another way: did a majority of gamers even really care about this, then or now?

P1: Packard Bell - 233 MMX, Voodoo1, 64 MB, ALS100+
P2-V2: Dell Dimension - 400 Mhz, Voodoo2, 256 MB
P!!! Custom: 1 Ghz, GeForce2 Pro/64MB, 384 MB

Reply 65 of 67, by digger

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drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 23:03:

Yea Arch is a rolling release, it will (should) be much quicker to support and implement features, fixes, and other things (or break them). I would think that there has to be something on the device or OS that is closed or secret for cheat-busting, I believe this has been a major issue with a lot of past support of games in linux and part of why they're changing OS.

I would certainly hope not. That would amount to some form of DRM. Take the current Steam Store for Linux. It runs on most x86 PC hardware, without requiring any scary kernel modules or anything. Even for the anti-cheat compatibility that Valve is still working to solve, I hope some non-invasive user space (or even containerized) solution will be found.

As far as ps3 linux, I guess my point was more along the lines of, linux support was definitely touted by Sony (since the ps2 era) and later revoked for security reasons (probably best considering their history)... but ultimately how many people actually used this feature or was their primary reason for purchase (I cant find any numbers)? Or put another way: did a majority of gamers even really care about this, then or now?

Maybe not most gamers, but some customers definitely bought it for that reason. I don't have exact numbers either, but PS3s were used in some super computing clusters due to the high level of parallelism that the Cell architecture provided. The ability to repurpose this game console for general compute tasks required it to run something like Linux. The class action lawsuit makes It clear that at least some relevant portion of the PS3 buyers did buy it for its initially advertised Linux compatibility.

But the PS3 is a very different and unique case. It had a bespoke architecture and Linux was only permitted to run on top of a hypervisor, without direct access to the hardware, rendering it useless for gaming applications. The Steam Deck in contrast, runs on a standard x86 architecture, with open source drivers even for the GPU, Linux will be the main OS it ships with, and the games will be running on Linux as well.

Also, Valve is not Sony. Valve engages much better with the open source community, and has based much of its strategy on Linux.

Reply 66 of 67, by SScorpio

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drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 20:47:

"locked in" meaning that you can't really upgrade anything (aside from storage), which is a large part of the appeal of PC gaming, considering how quickly it changes relative to consoles . I guess we'll see how well AMD has scaled their CPU and custom GPU, given their past mobile offerings.

How is this any different from how people game on laptops right now? You could argue against the soldered RAM, but that's become an all too common occurrence on laptops nowadays. The PC market has always been have a desktop and you can fiddle with it, but if you need something portable you lose upgradability.

drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-08-14, 20:51:

What are you comparing it to? A full fledged gaming PC? Then yeah, $400 is cheap. To a console, or Switch? I would say its an even wash at best. Sure it has decent specs, but you also have to take into account other things such as a much more mature hardware + ecosystem + OS etc. offered by the Big 3.

(Disclosure: I don't own a Switch or next gen console, just a base PS4 and a gaming rig.)

I'm comparing the GPD Win 3 and Aya Neo, they are both handheld portable PCs just like the Steam Deck they will run you $800-1000+. The Steam Deck will have a more powerful GPU than either of those at a starting price point of $400.

I also wouldn't consider the "Big 3" having a mature hardware + software ecosystem. Microsoft is probably the closest, the Xbox Series consoles OS looks and feels exactly like the Xbox One, and their backwards compatibility with the original Xbox and Xbox 360 are limited, but second to none compare to Sony and Nintendo.

Nintendo has so far wiped the slate clean with each new hardware release. This has caused some digital-only games to become lost unpurchasable, and locked to the devices and accounts that originally bought them. The Switch is about 4.5 years old and the OS is still extremely basic, and it's still missing simple convenience features, Bluetooth audio anyone?

Sony looked like they were doing everything right with PSX -> PS2 -> PS3 supporting the old library of games. Then the PS4 came out and was a hard cutoff where they didn't even attempt to support older digital purchases. You can argue architecture issues/limitations, but when some of the items are older consoles games running in emulators any purchases are now stuck hardware that came out 15 years ago. Then PS4 and PS5 both have extremely limited OSes are release, always missing features the previous models had.

The Steck Deck on the other hand can use an already existing 17-year-old library of games. Valve has stated their goal is 100% of the library running on it. Knowing how difficult it can be to get older games running, I don't see a point and click, everything just works goal being realistic. But if the new version of Steam OS really does resolve the issues with DRM and anti-cheat that are preventing games in the top 10, 100, 1000 from working. They will be far ahead of the Big 3 IMO.

Reply 67 of 67, by SherbertWest

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Lately, I've been thinking about a specific way that the Steam Deck might be utilized. I work at a public library, specifically one where physical space is very limited. This poses a problem in terms of having a physical video game collection, because there literally is nowhere to shelve one. That said, we do circulate streaming devices which can be used to access an online collection of digital content. Assuming the Steam Deck lives up to the ambitions of its creators, I could see making them, connected to a curated collection of games we purchase, an item we circulate.

That said, a couple of years ago we had a similar idea with making Oculus Go headsets available for checkout, and unfortunately after COVID hit the idea of circulating something that touches everyone's face was no longer an appealing idea. So it waits to be seen whether this will be a viable option.