VOGONS

Common searches


First post, by Fujoshi-hime

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I'm looking for options to capture DVI output form my Windows 9X and XP PCs for a personal project. Looking at most 'Gaming Capture Hardware' is fine for 16:9 and such but I hit problems testing with my PCs. This is DVI matter, not VGA. The main thing is most hardware also reports higher resolution support in it's EDID, like as high at 4K, and this tricks the ATi/AMD drivers in my hardware to go into that stupid panning mode and such and it's really a pain. I'm just trying to find something that can capture 4:3 Windows resolutions without scaling or causing much complication. Suggestions?

Reply 1 of 22, by agent_x007

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

You just need to go into overscan control (inside CCC, Catalyst Control Center), and adjust it for your screen.
Example : https://superuser.com/questions/57239/how-do- … -control-center
You can also fix how it should scale image with resolution in there as well (Fix proportions vs. Streched).
Lastly, you could try connecting second screen (with 4:3 resolution) and cloning it between both.

108080818886.png

Reply 2 of 22, by Fujoshi-hime

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
agent_x007 wrote on 2021-11-08, 00:24:

You just need to go into overscan control (inside CCC, Catalyst Control Center), and adjust it for your screen.
Example : https://superuser.com/questions/57239/how-do- … -control-center
You can also fix how it should scale image with resolution in there as well (Fix proportions vs. Streched).

That's not the solution to the problem. When connected to a high resolution monitor (or capture card that reports high resolutions) the ATi drivers kick into this stupid panning mode where the full desktop isn't even rendered unless I pan to the edges. It outputs 1920x1080, creates a 'visible, 1280x960 frame with in it, and let's me 'pan' around 1600x1200 in that box. No this is not a 'overscan' problem. This is an 'Old ATi drivers are dumb when given an EDID of resolution so large they didn't even really imagine it at the time of development' problem.

Also, there's the issue of most 'gaming' hardware not offering 1600x1200 support in their EDID at all. I don't want any dumb scaling tricks. I want clean, sharp, exactly 1600x1200 capture.

Reply 3 of 22, by darry

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Fujoshi-hime wrote on 2021-11-08, 01:37:
agent_x007 wrote on 2021-11-08, 00:24:

You just need to go into overscan control (inside CCC, Catalyst Control Center), and adjust it for your screen.
Example : https://superuser.com/questions/57239/how-do- … -control-center
You can also fix how it should scale image with resolution in there as well (Fix proportions vs. Streched).

That's not the solution to the problem. When connected to a high resolution monitor (or capture card that reports high resolutions) the ATi drivers kick into this stupid panning mode where the full desktop isn't even rendered unless I pan to the edges. It outputs 1920x1080, creates a 'visible, 1280x960 frame with in it, and let's me 'pan' around 1600x1200 in that box. No this is not a 'overscan' problem. This is an 'Old ATi drivers are dumb when given an EDID of resolution so large they didn't even really imagine it at the time of development' problem.

Also, there's the issue of most 'gaming' hardware not offering 1600x1200 support in their EDID at all. I don't want any dumb scaling tricks. I want clean, sharp, exactly 1600x1200 capture.

2 options, in that case .

a) Get an EDID emulator (DVI or HDMI with passive adapters as required) , copy your existing DVI monitor's EDID into it and connect it between the video card and DVI capture device . The video card will behave exactly as if it was connected to the DVI monitor
b) Get a DVI/HDMI splitter (DVI or HDMI with passive adapters as required) . Typically, such devices will expose the EDID of one of the devices to which video is sent (usually output 1, but some are configurable) to the video card . The video card will "think" it is sending video to the DVI monitor only and will behave accordingly but the same output will be sent to the DVI capture device .

Option b) has the added advantage of not having to putz around with multi-monitor output on the video card while letting you see exactly what the capture card is getting in real time. That is what I use in my setup .

Reply 4 of 22, by Fujoshi-hime

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
darry wrote on 2021-11-08, 02:12:
2 options, in that case . […]
Show full quote

2 options, in that case .

a) Get an EDID emulator (DVI or HDMI with passive adapters as required) , copy your existing DVI monitor's EDID into it and connect it between the video card and DVI capture device . The video card will behave exactly as if it was connected to the DVI monitor
b) Get a DVI/HDMI splitter (DVI or HDMI with passive adapters as required) . Typically, such devices will expose the EDID of one of the devices to which video is sent (usually output 1, but some are configurable) to the video card . The video card will "think" it is sending video to the DVI monitor only and will behave accordingly but the same output will be sent to the DVI capture device .

Option b) has the added advantage of not having to putz around with multi-monitor output on the video card while letting you see exactly what the capture card is getting in real time. That is what I use in my setup .

This might solve the EDID problem on the PC side, which is half the battle, but I'm not sure what capture hardware, when having 1600x1200 forced into it, despite it's EDID not reporting support for it, will actually function correctly. 😒 It may be just buying hardware for one problem that causes a secondary problem.

Reply 5 of 22, by darry

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Fujoshi-hime wrote on 2021-11-08, 03:13:
darry wrote on 2021-11-08, 02:12:
2 options, in that case . […]
Show full quote

2 options, in that case .

a) Get an EDID emulator (DVI or HDMI with passive adapters as required) , copy your existing DVI monitor's EDID into it and connect it between the video card and DVI capture device . The video card will behave exactly as if it was connected to the DVI monitor
b) Get a DVI/HDMI splitter (DVI or HDMI with passive adapters as required) . Typically, such devices will expose the EDID of one of the devices to which video is sent (usually output 1, but some are configurable) to the video card . The video card will "think" it is sending video to the DVI monitor only and will behave accordingly but the same output will be sent to the DVI capture device .

Option b) has the added advantage of not having to putz around with multi-monitor output on the video card while letting you see exactly what the capture card is getting in real time. That is what I use in my setup .

This might solve the EDID problem on the PC side, which is half the battle, but I'm not sure what capture hardware, when having 1600x1200 forced into it, despite it's EDID not reporting support for it, will actually function correctly. 😒 It may be just buying hardware for one problem that causes a secondary problem.

Both the Datapath E1S and the Elgato Cam Link 4K (now Corsair owned branded) handle 1600x1200 capture according my tests . The Cam Link 4K does so unofficially . Both also handle oddball non VESA resolution such as the custom one used here : 70Hz in pure DOS at 1600x1200 (or other) over DVI on an old card (FX5900) with modern monitor is possible and here Re: VGA Capture Thread

Based on that experience (and other tests), at least with those 2 capture devices, my guess is that practically anything (within reason) that a DVI capable video card can output will work . The E1S will have the added picture quality advantage of not converting and subsampling RGB output to 422 YCbCr . Practically all other (affordable) capture devices, including the Cam Link 4K, convert and subsample to 422 YCbCr .

This post and most of the thread might also be of interest to you Re: VGA Capture Thread

Reply 6 of 22, by HangarAte2nds!

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Fujoshi-hime wrote on 2021-11-08, 00:15:

I'm looking for options to capture DVI output form my Windows 9X and XP PCs for a personal project. Looking at most 'Gaming Capture Hardware' is fine for 16:9 and such but I hit problems testing with my PCs. This is DVI matter, not VGA. The main thing is most hardware also reports higher resolution support in it's EDID, like as high at 4K, and this tricks the ATi/AMD drivers in my hardware to go into that stupid panning mode and such and it's really a pain. I'm just trying to find something that can capture 4:3 Windows resolutions without scaling or causing much complication. Suggestions?

If you used a VGA to HDMI converter and run a HDMI capture device off that it should render it in 1080p format but with a 4:3 (isn't 5:4 a thing in older displays too?) image with big old black bars on the sides. Or you could use a simple DVI-D to HDMI adapter with the capture device but I feel like that might make it want to stretch out. I understand if you don't have VGA out on your video card but I really think I would go with the VGA instead of DVI myself. You don't state the resolution but if you are at the right resolution (1440x1080?) there will be no scaling when going to HDMI. If you are running games, you won't be doing that, though. I have done some pretty odd video conversions and scalings and have used multiple scaler/converter boxes inline without issue. I am that weirdo who records Hulu and burns it to DVD to watch on a CRT. HDMI-composite converter to composite 480p capture device and, while it doesn't look great for SD on a PC with an LCD monitor, you cannot tell the difference between that and most professionally authored DVDs on a CRT.
For your reference, I have the following products:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08HC8ZPG7/ … e?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BKY1VJQ/ … e?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QV6G532/ … e?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also have an old Roxio SD capture device in 4:3 aspect with both composite and S-Video inputs. I have numerous old video cards with S-Video out and I think taking the 480p capture and then upscaling it during rendering could produce good results too. Depends on the native res out of your PC...

Reply 7 of 22, by agent_x007

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

If you want to capture 1600x1200 natively, I don't see how you can do 1:1 "sharp" pixels with standard HDMI 1080p capture devices (you will ALWAYS get downscale to 1080p to fit Full HD).
You could try to get 4k 30/60FPS one, but that's a bit expensive... HOWEVER, it could work in upscale to 4k with black bars and then downscale to 1080p. That way you should get highest quality pixels for 4:3 resolution that's over height on usual 16:9 standards.

Still, if there are confirmed devices that support it non-officialy, I would give that a try before getting anything else.
I omit DataPath capture cards, as those are hard to buy and/or pretty expensive (not sure how much $$ you want to throw at this problem ?).

PS. S-Video is 1024x768 max. (with 800x600 or 640x480 offering much better text readability in most cases).
On top of that, video quality is... questionable on most lower budget models that have S-Video outs (image is fuzzy/not sharp, up to GF 5/GF6 cards on NV). Old cards (before at least GF256), do not support 1024x768 resolution at all and usually can't output to S-Video out on boot ("GPUs" with no build-in support for S-Video).
Lastly, with 640x480 you will get very frustrated at desktop space if you plan to do Windows XP or later OS (multiple windows/programs opened at the same time), and upscaling will not help with that.

108080818886.png

Reply 8 of 22, by imi

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

the old mk1 1080p camlink also supports 1600x1200 for example, as do probably several other capture devices that play nice with different resolutions than 1080p
1600x1200 at 60Hz uses less bandwidth than 1080p

capturing digital resolutions above VGA really isn't as much of an issue as capturing DOS 70Hz modes.

also S-video has nothing to do with these PC resolutions, S-video is 15kHz only and always gets output as such regardless of what resolution you set, whatever you set in your driver is just the resolution it renders before it gets downscaled for S-video output.

Reply 9 of 22, by Fujoshi-hime

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
darry wrote on 2021-11-08, 03:51:

Both the Datapath E1S and the Elgato Cam Link 4K (now Corsair owned branded) handle 1600x1200 capture according my tests . The Cam Link 4K does so unofficially . Both also handle oddball non VESA resolution such as the custom one used here : 70Hz in pure DOS at 1600x1200 (or other) over DVI on an old card (FX5900) with modern monitor is possible and here Re: VGA Capture Thread

Based on that experience (and other tests), at least with those 2 capture devices, my guess is that practically anything (within reason) that a DVI capable video card can output will work . The E1S will have the added picture quality advantage of not converting and subsampling RGB output to 422 YCbCr . Practically all other (affordable) capture devices, including the Cam Link 4K, convert and subsample to 422 YCbCr .

This post and most of the thread might also be of interest to you Re: VGA Capture Thread

Hey this worked, thanks a lot! Well mostly, the HDMI splitter worked to ensure the graphics card in my Windows ME machine got the EDID from my 1600x1200 Samsung monitor and not the capture card. The capture card I have on hand does not do more than 1024x768 for native capture, I tried manually entering 1280x960 and 1600x1200 but no dice. It can 'capture' those resolutions but has to stretch them to fit 1920x1080. This is at least *just* a capture card issue however and the one I have here is just borrowed while I test. You helped me solve the biggest problem with the EDID. I can borrow some other capture hardware and test to find higher resolution 4:3 capature.

Reply 10 of 22, by darry

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Fujoshi-hime wrote on 2021-11-09, 00:51:
darry wrote on 2021-11-08, 03:51:

Both the Datapath E1S and the Elgato Cam Link 4K (now Corsair owned branded) handle 1600x1200 capture according my tests . The Cam Link 4K does so unofficially . Both also handle oddball non VESA resolution such as the custom one used here : 70Hz in pure DOS at 1600x1200 (or other) over DVI on an old card (FX5900) with modern monitor is possible and here Re: VGA Capture Thread

Based on that experience (and other tests), at least with those 2 capture devices, my guess is that practically anything (within reason) that a DVI capable video card can output will work . The E1S will have the added picture quality advantage of not converting and subsampling RGB output to 422 YCbCr . Practically all other (affordable) capture devices, including the Cam Link 4K, convert and subsample to 422 YCbCr .

This post and most of the thread might also be of interest to you Re: VGA Capture Thread

Hey this worked, thanks a lot! Well mostly, the HDMI splitter worked to ensure the graphics card in my Windows ME machine got the EDID from my 1600x1200 Samsung monitor and not the capture card. The capture card I have on hand does not do more than 1024x768 for native capture, I tried manually entering 1280x960 and 1600x1200 but no dice. It can 'capture' those resolutions but has to stretch them to fit 1920x1080. This is at least *just* a capture card issue however and the one I have here is just borrowed while I test. You helped me solve the biggest problem with the EDID. I can borrow some other capture hardware and test to find higher resolution 4:3 capature.

I am happy to read that you are getting closer to your objective . I have tried some other capture cards cards, including bottom-of-the-barrel cheap ones, and most have been disappointing and/or unusable for non-HDTV resolutions . The previously mentioned Datapath E1S and Cam Link 4K have been the best ones I have tested . You could probably get some more recommendations from people in the VGA capture thread, but I doubt you will find something decent for much cheaper than the options that I am suggesting . A refurbished Cam Link 4K (USB 3.0) is about 100 $US on the Jeff Bezos initiated marketplace that shall not be named and a used Datapath E1S (PCI Express) can be had for less than that on a certain site that rimes with "free hay". 😉

Reply 11 of 22, by Fujoshi-hime

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
darry wrote on 2021-11-09, 02:51:

I am happy to read that you are getting closer to your objective . I have tried some other capture cards cards, including bottom-of-the-barrel cheap ones, and most have been disappointing and/or unusable for non-HDTV resolutions . The previously mentioned Datapath E1S and Cam Link 4K have been the best ones I have tested . You could probably get some more recommendations from people in the VGA capture thread, but I doubt you will find something decent for much cheaper than the options that I am suggesting . A refurbished Cam Link 4K (USB 3.0) is about 100 $US on the Jeff Bezos initiated marketplace that shall not be named and a used Datapath E1S (PCI Express) can be had for less than that on a certain site that rimes with "free hay". 😉

I tested my GF's fancy new 4K Avermedia capture device and it outright refused any 4:3 resolution. I tried an old $20 USB2.0 capture device and it totally does 1280x960 and 1600x1200, it's even in it's EDID natively, ha ha. However 1600x1200 only does 30fps. But I zoomed in and it's a least pixel perfect.

Reply 12 of 22, by Fujoshi-hime

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
darry wrote on 2021-11-09, 02:51:

I am happy to read that you are getting closer to your objective . I have tried some other capture cards cards, including bottom-of-the-barrel cheap ones, and most have been disappointing and/or unusable for non-HDTV resolutions . The previously mentioned Datapath E1S and Cam Link 4K have been the best ones I have tested . You could probably get some more recommendations from people in the VGA capture thread, but I doubt you will find something decent for much cheaper than the options that I am suggesting . A refurbished Cam Link 4K (USB 3.0) is about 100 $US on the Jeff Bezos initiated marketplace that shall not be named and a used Datapath E1S (PCI Express) can be had for less than that on a certain site that rimes with "free hay". 😉

I picked up a Cam Link 4K and now I have more questions. With the chinese knockoff 'Can't Link', even though it could only do 1024x768 at 60hz, and the refresh rate lowered if you went any hire, and it was MJPEG only, it was fine on resolution changes. You could set a fixed output resolution and any inputs would be scaled. It cleanly changed resolutions as the PC changed resolution, I could even boot the PC and capture the entire process before Windows booted. It was at worse, a bit slow in changing resolution.

The Cam Link 4K on the other hand, in OBS, and VirtualDub2, seems to 'die' when the resolution changes and you have to reset it. This is no good when capturing PC games that might go from a 1600x1200 desktop to a 640x480 2D game menu, to the game at 1024x768 when rendering in 3D. Is there a way around this? Better software? Also the official Elgato software doesn't even work, it reports that the resolutions it's getting are simply not compatible, meanwhile in OBS it's fine. Ideas?

Reply 14 of 22, by darry

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
imi wrote on 2021-11-24, 16:16:

the camlink also just "dies" without anything changing, it's not a good capture device 😒

That has not been my experience with the Cam Link 4K I have . Capturing through it during 2+ hour-long continuous stretches works fine for me .

Are you referring to the original (non 4K) Cam Link ? AFAICR, that one reportedly had some issues (can't recall the exact nature), but I have never used one .

Reply 15 of 22, by darry

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Fujoshi-hime wrote on 2021-11-24, 16:07:
darry wrote on 2021-11-09, 02:51:

I am happy to read that you are getting closer to your objective . I have tried some other capture cards cards, including bottom-of-the-barrel cheap ones, and most have been disappointing and/or unusable for non-HDTV resolutions . The previously mentioned Datapath E1S and Cam Link 4K have been the best ones I have tested . You could probably get some more recommendations from people in the VGA capture thread, but I doubt you will find something decent for much cheaper than the options that I am suggesting . A refurbished Cam Link 4K (USB 3.0) is about 100 $US on the Jeff Bezos initiated marketplace that shall not be named and a used Datapath E1S (PCI Express) can be had for less than that on a certain site that rimes with "free hay". 😉

I picked up a Cam Link 4K and now I have more questions. With the chinese knockoff 'Can't Link', even though it could only do 1024x768 at 60hz, and the refresh rate lowered if you went any hire, and it was MJPEG only, it was fine on resolution changes. You could set a fixed output resolution and any inputs would be scaled. It cleanly changed resolutions as the PC changed resolution, I could even boot the PC and capture the entire process before Windows booted. It was at worse, a bit slow in changing resolution.

The Cam Link 4K on the other hand, in OBS, and VirtualDub2, seems to 'die' when the resolution changes and you have to reset it. This is no good when capturing PC games that might go from a 1600x1200 desktop to a 640x480 2D game menu, to the game at 1024x768 when rendering in 3D. Is there a way around this? Better software? Also the official Elgato software doesn't even work, it reports that the resolutions it's getting are simply not compatible, meanwhile in OBS it's fine. Ideas?

I have never captured using mine during while dynamically changing resolution . The Cam Link 4K hardware might not be able to handle this .

On the software side, AFAIU, the capture application must be able to support dynamic resolution changes while capturing IF the hardware capture device does not allow automatically scaling input resolutions to a given fixed (possibly selectable) capture resolution (Cam Link 4K definitely does not scale). As this is not one of my use cases, I have not experimented with this scenario .

EDIT : AFAIU, the official Elgato software only works at HDTV widescreen resolutions (3840 x 2160 , 1920x1080 , 1280x720) . The only use I had for the said software is updating the Cam Link 4K firmware .

I see 2 possible ways to address the dynamic resolution change issue

a) get a software/hardware combination that handles resolution changes during capture
b) Use an inline scaler between the retro PC and Cam Link 4K to scale all resolutions to a specific resolution on the fly . Options include the Cypress CP-252 (VGA to DVI) and Extron RGB-DVI 300 ( VGA to DVI ). The latter of these is likely the best option .

Also, another potential option, if capturing from a new enough video card, would be to configure the retro PC for GPU scaling to a fixed resolution .

Last edited by darry on 2021-11-26, 01:29. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 16 of 22, by imi

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
darry wrote on 2021-11-25, 21:22:
imi wrote on 2021-11-24, 16:16:

the camlink also just "dies" without anything changing, it's not a good capture device 😒

That has not been my experience with the Cam Link 4K I have . Capturing through it during 2+ hour-long continuous stretches works fine for me .

Are you referring to the original (non 4K) Cam Link ? AFAICR, that one reportedly had some issues (can't recall the exact nature), but I have never used one .

I'm using the original camlink, sometimes it works for hours and hours on end without issue, but usually only after it disconnected a few times before and I unplug/replugged it.
I do appreciate it for supporting regular 4:3 resolutions though.

Reply 18 of 22, by Fujoshi-hime

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
darry wrote on 2021-11-25, 21:48:

a) get a software/hardware combination that handles resolution changes during capture
b) Use an inline scaler between the retro PC and Cam Link 4K to scale all resolutions to a specific resolution on the fly . Options include the Cypress CP-252 (VGA to DVI) and Extron RGB-DVI 300 ( VGA to DVI ). The latter of these is likely the best option .

Also, another potential option, if capturing from a new enough video card, would be to configure the retro PC for GPU scaling to a fixed resolution .

So, I'm using a Windows 9X PC and it really won't do the GPU scaling I want, like more modern hardware would, even though I'm using a Radeon X800, which is the last ATi card for Win9X

Anyway, I'm going with the Orei 🤣-4000 scaler, which will let me select fixed outputs in many 4:3 resolutions, so I can use that to scale the input when it goes outside of the 'main' resolution I'm targeting. I'm in like CAD$285+TAX for this setup, but it should be pretty much all I need once I have it cooking at least.