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The frustrations of the GPU market

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Reply 40 of 131, by appiah4

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-01-20, 10:05:

Yes a certain segment, in this case two Low Tier and Mid Tier which is what I said in my post, GPUs at the top end are selling for prices very similar to what they did 3 years ago.

Excuse me, was there a $1,500 card in the market 3 years ago? Thought not.

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Reply 41 of 131, by TrashPanda

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appiah4 wrote on 2022-01-20, 10:13:
TrashPanda wrote on 2022-01-20, 10:05:

Yes a certain segment, in this case two Low Tier and Mid Tier which is what I said in my post, GPUs at the top end are selling for prices very similar to what they did 3 years ago.

Excuse me, was there a $1,500 card in the market 3 years ago? Thought not.

Of course there was, unless you live under a rock or dont bother to notice that Halo GPUs cost a small fortune to buy, bought a 1080ti for 1400 AUD two years previous to the 2080ti.

I bought my 2080ti for 2600 AUD 3 years ago, bought a 3080ti two months ago for 2600 AUD, prices for halo product's have hardly moved, I cant talk about US prices as I dont live in the US but here in Australia its the Low and Mid tiers that have the crazy markups over prices 3 years ago.

Also it was just last year the US government removed tariffs on GPUs which caused price hikes since ya know being subsidised tends to lower prices. As for Europe .. way to many factors to even bother with GPU prices there, too many countries, taxes and regional pricing to factor in.

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Reply 42 of 131, by appiah4

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You are grasping at straws, not only is 1400 AUD not even remotely close to 1,500 USD, but 1080ti MSRP was actually 700 USD.

The fact is, RTX 3090 MSRP is 1,500 USD.

This, 3 years ago, was a price point that did not exist.

And before you bring in retail prices to the comparison, the 3090 actually sells for around 3,200 USD today.

So yeah, you are simply wrong.

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Reply 43 of 131, by Garrett W

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I don't think they're entirely wrong.

Like I said, the original Titan was 1000$ MSRP. After that, Titan Z was 3000$ MSRP, which admittedly was a card with very specific usage, but the Pascal based Titan X was 1200$ MSRP. Couple of years later, 2080 Ti launched at 1200$ MSRP with Titan RTX at 2500$ MSRP.
And if NVidia can pull this off, why not AMD? 6800 XT for 1000$ MSRP. This has been a long-time coming in a sense, even if it didn't exactly hit 1500$ MSRP for "mainstream" cards (though I'd argue Titan is/was closer to "mainstream" than workstation/production).

Reply 44 of 131, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-01-20, 10:24:

I bought my 2080ti for 2600 AUD 3 years ago, bought a 3080ti two months ago for 2600 AUD,

Side question: how well does 2080Ti run DirectX9 games? Are there many old games that refuse to run on 2080Ti?

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
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Reply 45 of 131, by The Serpent Rider

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Side question: how well does 2080Ti run DirectX9 games? Are there many old games that refuse to run on 2080Ti?

You can circumvent a lot of problems with DXVK now, which translates old DX API to Vulkan.

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Reply 46 of 131, by BEEN_Nath_58

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Side question: how well does 2080Ti run DirectX9 games? Are there many old games that refuse to run on 2080Ti?

If DX9 games worked fine on GTX series, they should too on RTX, if Nvidia doesn't decide to remove proprietary features (and what I have read, none). So expect the same compatibility. Of course there's dgVoodoo2, DxWnd, DXVK if you need them.

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Reply 47 of 131, by BitWrangler

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IDK if you might need to use a less current driver though, because there was an update last year where they sheared out a lot of legacy support, cards and maybe API wise, and made ppl mad.

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Reply 48 of 131, by zyzzle

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I'd sooner keel over rather than pay $3200 for a video card. Nothing smacks of needless excess and self-entitlement than what the modern gaming paywall of today has become. The days when $100 was expensive for a card I remember fondly. And, frankly, onboard video is good enough for me now. Call it "boomer" or whatever denigrating expletive you wish, but I'm sticking with games which run at 640x480 at 30fps, preferably in DOS. That's good enough for me; the quality of the game is so incredibly much more important than the graphics quality.

Reply 49 of 131, by Hoping

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Well, it would be interesting to know how much it really costs to manufacture, for example, an RTX 3090. Just as it has been investigated how much it costs to manufacture an iPhone and how much an iPhone is sold for later in the store.
The same would be true for graphics cards, what real benefit does the manufacturer/assembler get?
Without having a clue, I would say that an RTX costs between $300 and $500 to manufacture, based on hardware prices from years ago. It's also interesting to note that motherboards haven't gone up in price the same as graphics cards and are also quite complex. I'd say the motherboards even went down in price. With basic motherboards, here where I live, for €60 new.

Reply 50 of 131, by The Serpent Rider

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Motherboards don't have most modern and complex chips in them. Their PCB is also relatively simple, compared to high-end video card. And you're forgetting that CPUs are also priced crazy, and always were, considering that it's just one chip on a very small PCB. That's where the cost of a video card mostly is. But manufacturing crisis for notebooks and motherboards is already looming on horizon, due to new wave of pandemic.

Last edited by The Serpent Rider on 2022-01-20, 15:11. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 51 of 131, by BitWrangler

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Hoping wrote on 2022-01-20, 14:32:

I'd say the motherboards even went down in price. With basic motherboards, here where I live, for €60 new.

Don't forget that memory controllers have been offloaded/uploaded to the CPU, so "half the work" of a motherboard, or at least the northbridge, has been removed.

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Reply 52 of 131, by BitWrangler

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Hoping wrote on 2022-01-20, 14:32:

Well, it would be interesting to know how much it really costs to manufacture, for example, an RTX 3090. Just as it has been investigated how much it costs to manufacture an iPhone and how much an iPhone is sold for later in the store.
The same would be true for graphics cards, what real benefit does the manufacturer/assembler get?
Without having a clue, I would say that an RTX costs between $300 and $500 to manufacture, based on hardware prices from years ago. It's also interesting to note that motherboards haven't gone up in price the same as graphics cards and are also quite complex. I'd say the motherboards even went down in price. With basic motherboards, here where I live, for €60 new.

This might give you some idea... https://www.techinsights.com/products/bom-1811-811

edit: the more accessible instant answer if not sufficiently motivated to sign up to that site, from https://www.mooreslawisdead.com/post/nvidia-s-ultimate-play

9/3/20 Update: As covered in Broken Silicon #68, I have concluded that the average BOM of an AIB RTX 3080 is ~$600 based on input from multiple AIBs. Thus the FE is being sold at ~10% margins at most, and any price drops from the $700 MSRP will be hard to swallow.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 53 of 131, by Hoping

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BitWrangler wrote on 2022-01-20, 15:11:
This might give you some idea... https://www.techinsights.com/products/bom-1811-811 […]
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Hoping wrote on 2022-01-20, 14:32:

Well, it would be interesting to know how much it really costs to manufacture, for example, an RTX 3090. Just as it has been investigated how much it costs to manufacture an iPhone and how much an iPhone is sold for later in the store.
The same would be true for graphics cards, what real benefit does the manufacturer/assembler get?
Without having a clue, I would say that an RTX costs between $300 and $500 to manufacture, based on hardware prices from years ago. It's also interesting to note that motherboards haven't gone up in price the same as graphics cards and are also quite complex. I'd say the motherboards even went down in price. With basic motherboards, here where I live, for €60 new.

This might give you some idea... https://www.techinsights.com/products/bom-1811-811

edit: the more accessible instant answer if not sufficiently motivated to sign up to that site, from https://www.mooreslawisdead.com/post/nvidia-s-ultimate-play

9/3/20 Update: As covered in Broken Silicon #68, I have concluded that the average BOM of an AIB RTX 3080 is ~$600 based on input from multiple AIBs. Thus the FE is being sold at ~10% margins at most, and any price drops from the $700 MSRP will be hard to swallow.

So the average cost of manufacturing an RTX 3080 is $600 and the average price I find is €1,500 minimum. So the benefit would be around 300%.
I'm sorry, but it's clearly theft, taking advantage of the users' need.
The fact that Nvidia sells its processors through the back door to make extra profits at the expense of normal users does not speak very well of the brand.
The last article only demonstrates how Nvidia manipulates the market at will thanks to those who allow it, that is, those who claim to know a lot about hardware and spend huge amounts of money knowing that they are being robbed.
All of this is really ridiculous.
Nvidia is not the way it's meant to be played. It's the way the computer game market will end. Consider how both Sony and Microsoft now use Amd hardware for their consoles after Nvidia supplied faulty hardware in previous generations.

Reply 54 of 131, by Hanamichi

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote on 2022-01-20, 12:43:
TrashPanda wrote on 2022-01-20, 10:24:

I bought my 2080ti for 2600 AUD 3 years ago, bought a 3080ti two months ago for 2600 AUD,

Side question: how well does 2080Ti run DirectX9 games? Are there many old games that refuse to run on 2080Ti?

3070Ti seems to run all DX8, DX9 games tested fine so far, no compatibility issues. Framerate limiting needed sometimes just to keep heat and squeal away.

Main reason I went for NV over AMD. DXVK is cool but why should I need to put in the extra effort for my old DX9 games to run.

The only issue I have had is that the RTX series dropped support for interlaced resolutions even with DP->VGA or HDMI->VGA adapters.. this only bothers very few CRT/Plasma use cases.

Reply 55 of 131, by Jasin Natael

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I'm still holding onto my GTX 1080 (nonTI) for probably quite some time.
I sidegraded (sorta) from a Vega 56 that was a blower card. It ran everything I needed it to just fine, but it was dang banshee.
I had a buddy who managed to snag a 3080 at launch for MSRP and he sold me the 1080 (Asus Strix) for like $300, which was a great deal at the time and and even greater deal now.

Honestly I have very little to zero time to play games these days. I work a ton and have two kids under the age of 5, one of them special needs.
So even though I have a relatively powerful "gaming" PC and a 34" 1440p ultrawide display I never get to use it.
If I do get any time to play it is usually on my laptop which has a modest GTX1650, or more likely than that on my Switch.

I think my long gaming sessions are behind me. But the current GPU market does absolutely suck. If it weren't for gorssly inflated prices I probably would have sold my old GPU and upgraded by now "just cause"
I do still have my old Sapphire RX580 8GB GPU, and honestly between the RX580 and the GTX1080 I think these two cards are going to go down in history as two of the GOAT's.

Reply 56 of 131, by liqmat

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Jasin Natael wrote on 2022-01-20, 22:19:

I'm still holding onto my GTX 1080 (nonTI) for probably quite some time.

As you should. The 1080 is a great performer. My wife uses a 1080 for 1080p gaming. All the latest games run smooth with full detail. Ray tracing excluded, but no tears being shed about that.

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Reply 58 of 131, by drosse1meyer

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liqmat wrote on 2022-01-20, 22:25:
Jasin Natael wrote on 2022-01-20, 22:19:

I'm still holding onto my GTX 1080 (nonTI) for probably quite some time.

As you should. The 1080 is a great performer. My wife uses a 1080 for 1080p gaming. All the latest games run smooth with full detail. Ray tracing excluded, but no tears being shed about that.

Yep. Also I think that DLSS is a much better selling point over ray tracing for the Turing+ arch, at least for now

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Reply 59 of 131, by drosse1meyer

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appiah4 wrote on 2022-01-20, 06:16:
TrashPanda wrote on 2022-01-20, 06:00:

Funnily its only a certain segment of the GPU market that has seen stupid price hikes ..

No. A Radeon RX6500XT retails for 270-300 USD today. This is a card that is roughly on par with an RZ480 4GB released in 2016 for 200 USD. 6 years old, same performance, almost 50% markup. The ENTIRE product range is fucked up.

Even 980tis are going for 400$ on ebay. The market is ridic I agree... Whats the term? A rising tide lifts all ships

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