I think its cool.. but with no compatibility, I don't get it. You only have so many developers willing to write software for a custom retro-style machine. After the "oh that's neat" factor wears off, devs will just abandon it and move onto the next cool thing, or trickle out a few games/programs here and there. It would have made more sense to release an enhanced hardware board backwards compatible with C= software. So, cool concept, but poor design choices. After watching the video the other day, I've made up my mind I won't be pursuing a purchase of one.

As for newly created machines, compatiblity is key. Not many people want to dump $200+ into a board that only has a custom feature set and can't play the games they love. I hate to say it, but for most new boards, FPGA provides the diversity and ease of implementation to duplicate retro hardware design-on-chip.. that's why the Mister project was so successful. It's the wide range of compatiblity that people want.

It originally was supposed to be a 16mhz “16bit” 65816

Considering it’s meant to be a imagined spiritual successor to a c64 using all off the shelf parts and considering with one exception nothing commodore itself made in the 8 bit era was compatible with anything else I think he succeeded
And made a system that runs commodore basic programs.

Would it be nice if it was a 65816 like an Apple IIGS that could natively emulate other 6502 equipment from the past,? sure.

But There are many other projects if all you want is a replicant of a c64 or an emulation / FPGA system .

That said I have no interest in a hobby kit for learning to solder and code. Similar to a certain low end hobby gameboy like project that is also a unicorn for learning to code. (I keep forgetting there is more than one “system “ like that)

But I guess it’s not made for me or you,
though I can respect he made something unique for educating a future generation, which by its nature isn’t appealing to someone wanting to run the s100 OS that lacks any good graphical games.

As for 6502 based CPM, yeah that was never a thing and I doubt anyone cares about omitting a z80.

That said having a fast physical z80 and 65816 on board would have made native “emulation “ in real hardware of many target systems quite easy but I guess there are millions of systems already for that even if they are just an FPGA or software driven

I look at it like the Mega65. Massively expensive and its not really "retro" or anything. its inspired by the classic machines we love, but feels somewhat pointless.

I almost forgot that existed

BloodyCactus wrote on 2022-10-14, 12:06:

I look at it like the Mega65. Massively expensive and its not really "retro" or anything. its inspired by the classic machines we love, but feels somewhat pointless.

Damn Germans and their overpriced fast compatible c64 emulated in hardware

Yeah, I'm not sure about the Commander X16 anymore either. I was excited about it at first, but it seems a little dead end with no C64 compatibility. Unless they really think it'll catch on and become a thriving retro platform in it's own right.

While I was waiting and watching that project, I wound up just ordering a NuXT instead. Satisfies my need for a relatively unthreatening platform to noodle around in assembly on, and anything I write for/on it is still ostensibly compatible with PCs. Or DOSBOX if nothing else.

I got the impression that he would like to use the machine as a "springboard" of sorts to market his own games.
While that in itself is a neat idea...I don't see that being a successful venture.
His Planet X series of games are pretty good but he has already made them available on so many other platforms, I can't see exclusives doing very well.

Of course I could be wrong and he just had a idea for his ideal retro machine and he wanted to make it happen. Either way I don't see it taking off.

I just don't get it why he had chosen the awful Commodore Basic v2.
If it was Simons' Basic or Commodore Basic v7..
But the old C64 Basuc was just horrible. It always ran out of memory, too.
To make things fit, the datasette routines had to be removed, even.

Personally, I'd rather recreate a BASIC from scratch that has the C64 Basic instructions for porting over existing code.

But why the C64, at all? An Amiga inspired 16-Bit system would be much more enjoyable, anyway.

The C64 had and still has a fantastic community, kudos!, but the machines were full of bugs.

The 1541 floppy drives, especially, were horrible (the 1541C models were fixable, the 157x were okay).
Both software wise (polling due to practically broken shifter registers) as well as hardware wise (constant head-banging; no light-barrier installed).

More information found here:
https://theindustriousrabbit.com/blog/2021-04 … anaging-bosses/

If it wasn't for the SID and all those fantastic text adventures,
I'd perhaps never even tried using that "Personal Computer" in first place.

It's really hard to understand for me why someone wants to model a dream computer after a C64.
The C128? Sure, the native mode and Z80+CP/M mode were fascinating.
The floppy sub system was fixed, too! It has an 80 char mode, even!
CGA-like graphics abilities, two independent video chips! Yay!

Edit: Edited.

Jo22 wrote on 2022-10-14, 14:23:

It's really hard to understand for me why someone wants to model a dream computer after a C64. The C128? Sure, the native mode […]
Show full quote

It's really hard to understand for me why someone wants to model a dream computer after a C64.
The C128? Sure, the native mode and Z80+CP/M mode were fascinating.
The floppy sub system was fixed, too! It has an 80 char mode, even!
CGA-like graphucs abilities, two independent video chips! Yay!

The heart wants what the heart wants. I see a lot of nostalgia for programming 8-bit home computers. And programming the VIC2 and SID chips specifically. A lot of people really seem to enjoy making those chips sing. My understanding with the C64 specifically is that every piece of hardware was memory mapped somewhere, which made interfacing with it relatively simple. And the 6502 instruction set is relatively intuitive and simple. Or at least I found it to be in my dabbling.

That being said, assuming it is driven by nostalgia for the fundamental capabilities and architecture of the C64, if not how it was implemented specifically, I still think it misstepped.

The most interesting part of this design is the vera chip for having analog graphics output. From what I remember, there was no original chip to output analog graphics that the 8bit guy could use or wanted to design himself. So I think he found something already being worked on and then integrated that instead despite not being an exact clone anymore. I think that this chip has potential for being the missing piece in having analog support in a newly manufactured device today, since no one else wants to produce for that anymore.

I agree that not having compatibility, and the commodore basic focus (where is the market for that really?) kind of hurts the potential. It's pretty much for the nostalgia of that type of computer or maybe for a few beginners in basic computing that have an interest in that era. I'd personally like to see classic pcs back in reproduction, with newly manufactured chips, and with full compatibility so that it has a market and use on day one. It's is essentially an open source compute platform if there is any. But it's cool that the commodore has been cloned (in essence), the kernal and basic has essentially been clean reverse engineered and recreated as an open source rom right? I hope so.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-10-14, 11:24:

Please get me right, I'm not trying to discourage those who are involved in the project or to dissuade anyone from buying it. But I have a question, does such a machine make any sense at all? And the more important question, what kind of neo-retro machine, 8-bit or 16-bit, would actually make sense to you?

A few things come to mind for me:

1. Compatibility with older games. I don't need to expand on this much, as this has been discussed already. Nonetheless, I would also add that I would love to be able to play older Commodore or Atari games on actual hardware. I've been wanting a C64 for awhile, but I don't have the electronics know how to deal with the hassles of fixing any problems that arise. I've seen some tested systems on eBay, but the prices are well outside of my budget. I've come close to buying one a few times, but I worry that I'll pay a decent amount of money for something that won't last that long.

2. An affordable handheld computer. I'm not too big into handheld gaming, but there seemed to be a lot of interest in projects like the Open Pandora that could be used for retro games that needed a keyboard. Unfortunately, that project was fairly expensive iirc.

3. An entirely new "fantasy" console designed with some hardware in mind. The Pico-8 comes to mind:

https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

This project is based on a fantasy console that has never existed. Basically, it wasn't designed to reproduce a console from the past, but was meant to have a lot of the limitations of older consoles like the NES or SNES. This project has been pretty successful despite not being based on an old system that people are nostalgic for. It attracted a pretty decent sized community, so there are a lot of games available for it, which shows you can be successful without having an existing software catalog ready to use. Also, Pico-8 has enough quality of life features that helps keep people interested. For example, anyone can easily open the source code for a game to see how it works or to make changes to the game itself. Also, it uses a scripting language that is more familiar to modern programmers. It also makes downloading games easy because that's built right into the interface.

The more I think of the fantasy console approach, the more I like it. I don't see myself learning Commodore basic, but I already use Python for my job. Instead of finding games on another computer and transferring them over, it would be really convenient to fire up a machine and have the ability to browse games easily from the interface. I could even see multiplayer gaming working with a retro style system over the internet. Because you're not compromising between making something new and also being similar to a specific computer from the past, you can avoid a lot of the problems like finding new hardware that would work with decades old software or any of the licensing issues.

Of course, one major challenge would be building up a sizeable community in the first place. There have been other fantasy consoles, but I don't think any of them were nearly as successful. I think this is in large part to them not being first.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-10-14, 11:24:

And the more important question, what kind of neo-retro machine, 8-bit or 16-bit, would actually make sense to you?

I'd want something that is both generally compatible with the software of the era, plus improves on reliability or fixes issues of the original hardware it is emulating.

I don't otherwise have an interest in a machine that is emulating a bygone era if it can't use the software of that bygone era.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-10-14, 11:24:

Yesterday I've watched a new video of The 8-Bit Guy about his Commander X16 project which is in the final stages of its development.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcWqMGju7fk

First of all I have to say that any project and any attempt in the retro computing field deserves respect, but ... And here comes a big 'But'. From a short explanation in the video I understood that it is an 8-bit computer, that it is not compatible with any Commodore machine, that it can't run CP/M, and that it has almost zero software available for it (only few games that are on a different stages of development now). The only thing it is capable of is a Commodore Basic.

Ever upgraded a computer? Ever then wanted to completely max it out? To get it to be as good as you could - best CPU upgrade, maxmimum amount of RAM, fastest/biggest storage. That's what's the Commander X16 is, if your starting/reference point is 8-bit Commodore machines. Not my bag, but certainly is his.

nfraser01 wrote on 2022-10-16, 20:38:

Ever upgraded a computer? Ever then wanted to completely max it out? To get it to be as good as you could - best CPU upgrade, maxmimum amount of RAM, fastest/biggest storage. That's what's the Commander X16 is, if your starting/reference point is 8-bit Commodore machines. Not my bag, but certainly is his.

Whether I ever wanted to max out an 8-bit computer to the degree when it becomes not compatible with any previous model but still has not a CP/M capability? Of course not!

I think it should be treated the same way as steampunk, in a good sense.
It's not really about practical applications or compatibility, it's about retrofuturism - reimagining the the possible future of early micros if we had our current knowledge back then.
As such it's only great for recreational purposes for those involved in its design, and those living in fantasies on how it could have been if we could do all this at the time.
The involvement in fantasy is the prime factor, nothing else really matters.

vstrakh wrote on 2022-10-17, 10:45:

I think it should be treated the same way as steampunk. It's not really about practical applications or compatibility, it's abou […]
Show full quote

I think it should be treated the same way as steampunk.
It's not really about practical applications or compatibility, it's about retrofuturism - reimagining the the possible future of early micros if we had our current knowledge back then.
As such it's only great for recreational purposes for those involved in its design, and those living in fantasies on how it could have been if we could do all this at the time.
The involvement in fantasy is the prime factor, nothing else really matters.

Well, I have nothing against those who admire locomotives that produce lots of steam and noise, but go nowhere. But I'm not one of them. 🙂

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-10-17, 11:12:

vstrakh wrote on 2022-10-17, 10:45:

I think it should be treated the same way as steampunk. It's not really about practical applications or compatibility, it's abou […]
Show full quote

I think it should be treated the same way as steampunk.
It's not really about practical applications or compatibility, it's about retrofuturism - reimagining the the possible future of early micros if we had our current knowledge back then.
As such it's only great for recreational purposes for those involved in its design, and those living in fantasies on how it could have been if we could do all this at the time.
The involvement in fantasy is the prime factor, nothing else really matters.

Well, I have nothing against those who admire locomotives that produce lots of steam and noise, but go nowhere. But I'm not one of them. 🙂

Some (maybe many) people see the entire retro computer hobby as pointless nonsense, I am not one of them.

Some people love listening to music on vinyl LPs, I am not one of them (I see vinyl as a medium that I will use if I have to based on unavailability of given content on other media that offer a closer experience to studio master recordings. I do have an interest in the technical aspects of the medium, however ).

Some people are into both of the above hobbies.

I have no idea if the Commander X16 will be commercially successful (I hope it at least beraks even), but I am not considering getting one. In the meantime, I will keep following up on it as I do find it an interesting, if not personally appealing, device.

As for Steampunk, I have absolutely 0 interest in even the concept, but I do have lots of intest in alternate history (retrofuturism) fiction, like in the Turbo Kid movie and old 70s/80s/90s post apocalyptic movies as they all now feel pretty similar conceptually from the perspective of the current time.

To each his own.

darry wrote on 2022-10-17, 12:27:

Well, Some (maybe many) people see the entire retro computer hobby as pointless nonsense, I am not one of them. […]
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Well, Some (maybe many) people see the entire retro computer hobby as pointless nonsense, I am not one of them.

Some people love listening to music on vinyl LPs, I am not one of them (I see vinyl as a medium that I will use if I have to based on unavailability of given content on other media that offer a closer experience to studio master recordings. I do have an interest in the technical aspects of the medium, however ).

Some people are into both of the above hobbies.

I have no idea if the Commander X16 will be commercially successful (I hope it at least beraks even), but I am not considering getting one. In the meantime, I will keep following up on it as I do find it an interesting, if not personally appealing, device.

As for Steampunk, I have absolutely 0 interest in even the concept, but I do have lots of intest in alternate history (retrofuturism) fiction, like in the Turbo Kid movie and old 70s/80s/90s post apocalyptic movies as they all now feel pretty similar conceptually from the perspective of the current time.

To each his own.

First I’ve heard of this project. I watched the video. I see a guy living his dream and it looks like he loves what he does. Good for him. Like any hobby, we all enter it for different personal reasons. Sometimes it aligns with others, sometimes not. The C64 was my first computer and got me interested in computers as a teenager. The C128 fell flat with me. Too little, too late. The first Amiga is what got my blood pumping. All of the sudden I saw the future.

Edit: Oh, and I’ve been to a couple of Steampunk festivals in my lifetime. They can be truly fascinating.

It's not for me but I can see the appeal.

I'd like to see a BOM-optimized version with SMD parts. It seems like if you're sticking an FPGA on it anyway you might as well eliminate some of that glue logic.

Something not discussed is the fact the original Commodore 128 could emulate some other 8 bit machines of the time.

Considering you already have a fast 6502 w/ lots of memory I don’t see it a leap that this could potentially emulate a variety of 8bit micros even without the proper video subsystem, sound might be non-existent or off.

Unfortunate they couldn’t get the 16mhz 16bit 65816 to work with a 6502 mode, that would make emulation even more possible and cycle accurate with a real 6502 is more likely.

Also porting 6502 software from another platform might even be possible to automate given how well know the hardware (target->host) is now days

Another possibility is making a variety of different rom/bios’s available to give the unit different modes of operation

I honestly was uncertain why having selectable ROMs / firmware on such a system wasn’t a thing