Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-18, 09:00:

Hi everyone, […]
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Hi everyone,

Just saw this video and thought I should share it with you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-0iCEcuAXw

Gratefully, people here at Vogons are generally not like that.

The problems being mentioned in the video should be kept in mind, maybe, however.
So they won't find another ground to grow in.

Before watching this, I didn't really realize the dimension of the matter.

The worst I knew were Commodore diehards arguing on the web. 😁
- On the other hand, the guys at Forum64 are friendly, too, afaik. 🙂👍
Ok, ok, enough about that now.

Best wishes,
Jo22

interesting, i really am not involved enough to pick up on it - i guess its mostly aimed at anyone who produces any content (even just a pic) and exists mostly on 'social media'

it would be good in such cases to say "I am playing zelda..... on an emulator that's 2 versions out of date .. with an xbox controller... on a landscape flat screen !!" to emphasise that it doesn't really matter

At this rate the original hardware is all going to die off at some point , so those gatekeepers aren't doing themselves any favors ,
sooner or later emulation or simulation(FPGA) or recompilation and porting will be the only way to run the original software.

I mean I like OG hardware too , maybe somewhat disproportionately , but I use emulation as well , PCem and WinUAE are really useful bits of software , that cannot be understated.

I also used Dosbox for ages before I even built my first rig , that's how I learned to use dos , it was basically a gateway drug.
Also some people just don't want the hassle of temperamental old systems that act like primadonnas and might bite the dust any second.

I'm assuming some of the gatekeeping might be due to sunken cost fallacy ,
people have invested so much money and energy that they have gone too far to not defend their stake in things.
Lest they admit they are potentially foolish.

Gatekeeping would be also stupid because if they scare everyone away and they all die off along with the hardware ,
no one will give a toot about it in the future and no one will remember it ,
it seems a bit counterintuitive if you care so much about whatever system you like so much.

Either way at the end of the way everyone has their preference and nobody is any lesser for using emulators to play what they like.

AppleSauce wrote on 2023-01-18, 11:26:

At this rate the original hardware is all going to die off at some point , so those gatekeepers aren't doing themselves any favo […]
Show full quote

At this rate the original hardware is all going to die off at some point , so those gatekeepers aren't doing themselves any favors ,
sooner or later emulation or simulation(FPGA) or recompilation and porting will be the only way to run the original software.

I mean I like OG hardware too , maybe somewhat disproportionately , but I use emulation as well , PCem and WinUAE are really useful bits of software , that cannot be understated.

I also used Dosbox for ages before I even built my first rig , that's how I learned to use dos , it was basically a gateway drug.
Also some people just don't want the hassle of temperamental old systems that act like primadonnas and might bite the dust any second.

I'm assuming some of the gatekeeping might be due to sunken cost fallacy ,
people have invested so much money and energy that they have gone too far to not defend their stake in things.
Lest they admit they are potentially foolish.

Gatekeeping would be also stupid because if they scare everyone away and they all die off along with the hardware ,
no one will give a toot about it in the future and no one will remember it ,
it seems a bit counterintuitive if you care so much about whatever system you like so much.

Either way at the end of the way everyone has their preference and nobody is any lesser for using emulators to play what they like.

gerry wrote on 2023-01-18, 10:00:

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-18, 09:00:

Hi everyone, […]
Show full quote

Hi everyone,

Just saw this video and thought I should share it with you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-0iCEcuAXw

Gratefully, people here at Vogons are generally not like that.

The problems being mentioned in the video should be kept in mind, maybe, however.
So they won't find another ground to grow in.

Before watching this, I didn't really realize the dimension of the matter.

The worst I knew were Commodore diehards arguing on the web. 😁
- On the other hand, the guys at Forum64 are friendly, too, afaik. 🙂👍
Ok, ok, enough about that now.

Best wishes,
Jo22

interesting, i really am not involved enough to pick up on it - i guess its mostly aimed at anyone who produces any content (even just a pic) and exists mostly on 'social media'

it would be good in such cases to say "I am playing zelda..... on an emulator that's 2 versions out of date .. with an xbox controller... on a landscape flat screen !!" to emphasise that it doesn't really matter

What me (personally) worries the most is that "you're too young to talk about stuff" attitude that's being mentioned in the video.

There are people like me who're interested in technology that's slightly before their time (in my case, it's 60s/70s tech).

Nevertheless, that circumstance also allows such people / "us" to learn about it without being biased.

Whereas some of the people who lived through that time may still inherent old falsehoods and stereotypes or simply don't think it's anything special.

Just like smartphones aren't anything special to young people who grew up with them.

Anyway, I don't mean to generalize things here. People are all different out there.
My father, for example, is still fascinated by older equipment of his own time
and keeps learning new old things now and then.

But on the other hand, there are also teenagers into chip tunes who try to write NES emulators or do compose music for it.

Or, what also comes to mind: The SRB2 fan game.
It started in the late 90s/early 2000s, now the kids of the original project members work on it (* if I understand correctly).
It became a generation project, so to say.

Gratefully, people here at Vogons are generally not like that.

I'm not sure I agree with this. There are a fair few hostile people and gatekeeping is definitely a problem here, too.

Oerg866 wrote on 2023-01-18, 12:15:

Gratefully, people here at Vogons are generally not like that.

I'm not sure I agree with this. There are a fair few hostile people and gatekeeping is definitely a problem here, too.

True, while this forum has nice people and valuable information, I have seen some here being elitist regarding specs and prices for old hardware. In the latter, sometimes blaming people like LGR or Phil even though they are encouraging younger generations to get into the retro hobby.

To be fair, this is an emulator support forum. People who insist on running their games on 'old junk' are not really supposed to be here.

Errius wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:01:

To be fair, this is an emulator support forum. People who insist on running their games on 'old junk' are not really supposed to be here.

Especially "period correct" crowd =P

Errius wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:01:

To be fair, this is an emulator support forum. People who insist on running their games on 'old junk' are not really supposed to be here.

Yep, VOGONS is an acronym for "Very Old Games On New Systems" if it wasn't that obvious. 😀

However, a good part of the current forum activity is in the Marvin section.

I don't think that gate keeping is inherently bad or a problem. Gate keeping is only about preserving something to stay what it was originally meant to be instead of diluting it to be more inclusive for an audience who isn't even even interested in said thing.

Also, the thing in the video is not gate keeping, just plain social media toxicity. Don't confuse the two things. Retro gaming/computing is very much immune to true gate keeping.

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:08:

I don't think that gate keeping is inherently bad or a problem. Gate keeping is only about preserving something to stay what it was originally meant to be instead of diluting it to be more inclusive for an audience who isn't even even interested in said thing.

Yes, though even the "to stay what it was originally meant to be" part is problematic sometimes.

There we have the RGB/SCART/pixel-perfect diehards and the scan lines aficionados, for example.

In reality, however, each platform was different.

The PC did have different video systems (CGA 15KHz with blurry screens or mono monitors, VGA with scan doubled lines, Hi-res Hercules etc), not just one in particular.

However, by contrast, the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive didn't use RGB video in practice, not even Composite.
The default video was RF. All other connections were available - but optional, non-standard.

Players had to buy these cables in a games shop, needed a real video monitor to use them.

The old TVs kids got from grandparents or older siblings often were RF only.
Games were designed to look good on RF, thus.

This is something that gets mixed up by all those preservatives -err- preservists, I'm afraid. 😉

Just because the development systems for said video games were high-end and used RGB monitors with a fine dot pitch doesn't mean that developers used them as a reference.

The game studios had their own game testers with bog standard game consoles connected to all sorts of TVs.

The refusal to check games on old TV sets with RF input is something that silently depresses me,
as someone who lived with that old tech in past times.

That's something I like emulators for, by the way.
Emulators allow the simulation of blurry NTSC or PAL video monitors:
Kega Fusion has a nice NTSC and RF filter, Vice64 has good PAL emulation.

Strictly speaking, emulators are no contradiction to real hardware, I think.
They always were being around in one form or another.
To me, emulators are fine development tools, rather. Just like assembler/disassembler, debugger or EPROM simulators. ^^

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:08:

Also, the thing in the video is not gate keeping, just plain social media toxicity. Don't confuse the two things. Retro gaming/computing is very much immune to true gate keeping.

Good point. Though I also noticed some exceptions.
People got upset about a company which dared to create/sell transparent replica cases for the C64 (using the original mold).
It was/is a no go to those C64 users. They think it's a sacrilege or something, because the transparent version was a special edition/limited edition.
Makes me wonder what happens if the chassis of the holy golden C64 is being replicated eventually. 😰

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:32:

However, by contrast, the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive didn't use RGB video in practice, not even Composite.
The default video was RF. All other connections were available - but optional, non-standard.

I think the Mega Drive 2 came with a bundled Composite cable around these parts (Europe), but I'm not sure. I do remember magazines with ads for optional, third-party SCART cables for the SNES, Mega Drive and PlayStation from the mid '90s. Might even still have a few of those mags somewhere in my attic. I do have a few period-correct SCART cables for both my Mega Drive and my PlayStation, but I rarely use them nowadays because they are inferior to modern ones.

We were fortunate here in Europe since the vast majority of our CRT TVs made after the 1980s had an RGB SCART port by default. Only the cheapest of the low-end models were RF only.

To me, if you feel emulation is cool. Then great 😀 If you feel FPGA is awesome, then good for you ! 😀 If you feel original hardware is cool, then it is absolutely great 😀 but elitism/gatekeeping in retro gaming has been around for MANY years. I still remember ASSEMbler games, getting hacked by Neo Geo fans, and no I am not joking. Seriously though, if I should go some way with retro games. It would be a mixture of real hardware and some emulation. Like therasteri´s " weeCee " and a raspberry pie , that emulates the fantastic midi soundcards, like the Roland sound canvas, and the MT32. I am an old fart , my first pc was an Olivetti 486 25 mhz , 4 megabytes of ram , 240 megabytes harddrive, and VGA. Plus Windows 3.11 and MS DOS 6 or 6.22. Would I love to go back those stats ? Oh heck no ! would I love to upgrade such an old machine and put some non period correct hardware in it ? Oh yes, that would be swell ! Also here is a cool thing I experienced back in 2019, which I have mentioned before. I met a young guy at a rock and metal bar, and we spoke about old games, consoles and what not. And he knew about an old game like Stunts, and we spoke about dis-assembling, and or decompiling. Because as far I am aware, the source code for Stunts is lost. But what made me proud was that he guessed correctly about how the SNES sounded, when I played a tune from an old SNES game. Seriously who ever those people are, who gate-keeps. Needs to grow up, and become human beings. I get proud every time some young whipper-snapper gets interested in old things, whether it has anything to do with either electronics or for that matter ham radio. Or 80s music or older. We as human beings should be proud of people wanting to play old games, with or without emulation, or for that matter with a CRT or not. At least they are having fun, the elitism is so much like extremism, which I dislike too !

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-01-18, 14:19:

Jo22 wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:32:

However, by contrast, the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive didn't use RGB video in practice, not even Composite.
The default video was RF. All other connections were available - but optional, non-standard.

I think the Mega Drive 2 came with a bundled Composite cable around these parts (Europe), but I'm not sure.

I still have my childhood Mega Drive 2 and it came only with RF. The manual says the French model came with "peritel cable" which is apparently just another name for SCART in France so I guess they got composite video out the box, can't imagine it was full RGB.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-01-18, 14:56:

I still have my childhood Mega Drive 2 and it came only with RF. The manual says the French model came with "peritel cable" which is apparently just another name for SCART in France so I guess they got composite video out the box, can't imagine it was full RGB.

Not sure about the peritel cable, but the third-party SCART cables that I could buy during the mid-late 90s were full RGB.

As mentioned before, I still have one of those and its picture clarity is a clear step up over Composite, not to mention RF. But it does suffer from interference issues (waves, lines and such) due to poor shielding, which is why I replaced it with a newly made cable from RGC. Their cables are top notch, and I use them for all of my consoles nowadays.

Back in the day in the UK we had SCART on the VCR before we had one on the TV and several 8 bit looked better even hooking up through that, because the VCRs modulator was much higher quality than the ones in/with the 8 bits. I wanna say something like 4 times the size, not through integration differences, but more like more filters and symetrically balanced amplification type circuits vs one transistor and done.

Anyhoooo, in general I try not to be gatekeepery, but get a bit stompy when it sounds like ppl are just making shit up. Also things like tryna steer people away from dissappointment, like if they realllly want to enjoy a 286 machine, maybe don't get a 5170 as your first.

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:08:

I don't think that gate keeping is inherently bad or a problem. Gate keeping is only about preserving something to stay what it was originally meant to be instead of diluting it to be more inclusive for an audience who isn't even even interested in said thing.

Also, the thing in the video is not gate keeping, just plain social media toxicity. Don't confuse the two things. Retro gaming/computing is very much immune to true gate keeping.

Yeah, I can agree with this. Hobby specific communities need gatekeeping. I've seen too many communities I used to be a part of, that were ostensibly about X have a bunch of entriest sweep in, somehow take over, and suddenly it's about Y now instead.

WolverineDK wrote on 2023-01-18, 14:48:

To me, if you feel emulation is cool. Then great 😀 If you feel FPGA is awesome, then good for you ! 😀 If you feel original hardware is cool, then it is absolutely great 😀

You speak my language, buddy. Once I was known as someone who hoarded retro hardware like Thrustmaster HOTAS controllers and Voodoo5 5500, but the reason I did it because it was not easy to emulate my favorite games during that time. Now we have things like DxWnd, DXGL, and dgVoodoo2, GLide wrappers are getting better, and modern CPUs are fast enough to run 3d texture-mapped DOS games in 640x480, not to mention some great flight sims in the past lile this and this have been modded to work on modern system. If you can run Total Air War on modern GPU with 16xAA or better, I'd definitely choose it over running it on period correct hardware. In fact, I've been preferring DOSBOX for low res, 320x200 VGA game, because you can use bigger resolution than the original with various filtering options. To me, Martian Dreams running in 1080p using 2xsai definitely looks better than running it in 320x200 on a CRT monitor.

WolverineDK wrote on 2023-01-18, 14:48:

but elitism/gatekeeping in retro gaming has been around for MANY years.

To me, such elitism is self-defeating. Great old games would gradually fade into oblivion if nobody plays them anymore. The reasons old games are being sold on GoG is because there is a market for it, because there are people who love and play those games.

The same goes with vintage audio. Market place like this exists because there are people who love vintage audio, and will continue to exist as long as there are still people who love such vintage gears.

WolverineDK wrote on 2023-01-18, 14:48:

I still remember ASSEMbler games, getting hacked by Neo Geo fans, and no I am not joking. Seriously though, if I should go some way with retro games. It would be a mixture of real hardware and some emulation. Like therasteri´s " weeCee " and a raspberry pie , that emulates the fantastic midi soundcards, like the Roland sound canvas, and the MT32. I am an old fart , my first pc was an Olivetti 486 25 mhz , 4 megabytes of ram , 240 megabytes harddrive, and VGA. Plus Windows 3.11 and MS DOS 6 or 6.22. Would I love to go back those stats ? Oh heck no ! would I love to upgrade such an old machine and put some non period correct hardware in it ? Oh yes, that would be swell ! Also here is a cool thing I experienced back in 2019, which I have mentioned before. I met a young guy at a rock and metal bar, and we spoke about old games, consoles and what not. And he knew about an old game like Stunts, and we spoke about dis-assembling, and or decompiling. Because as far I am aware, the source code for Stunts is lost. But what made me proud was that he guessed correctly about how the SNES sounded, when I played a tune from an old SNES game. Seriously who ever those people are, who gate-keeps. Needs to grow up, and become human beings. I get proud every time some young whipper-snapper gets interested in old things, whether it has anything to do with either electronics or for that matter ham radio. Or 80s music or older. We as human beings should be proud of people wanting to play old games, with or without emulation, or for that matter with a CRT or not. At least they are having fun, the elitism is so much like extremism, which I dislike too !

It's always nice to know that there are younger people who love old games.

Errius wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:01:

To be fair, this is an emulator support forum. People who insist on running their games on 'old junk' are not really supposed to be here.

What the hell, though? Why offer Marvin and have it grow so much if it's unwanted here? That's kind of the problem. VOGONS even when it comes to talking about old hardware is too big to ignore, even with all the downsides.

I also consider this "Let's make new hardware noone can afford nor will we tell anyone when and how to buy them but we love free attention and clout so we post many threads about them anyway" crowd a massive gatekeeping problem in itself. It's sad, really :\

Errius wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:01:

To be fair, this is an emulator support forum. People who insist on running their games on 'old junk' are not really supposed to be here.

To be fair, many of the long standing members of this forum are people who insist on running their games on retro hardware; people like 5u3, Great Hierophant, Malik, and WolverineDK. They are good people and helpful forum members, and I could't imagine this forum without their contributions, especially around 2006 - 2007, where the PC subforum was full of people discussing about building proper retro hardware to play old games (before such discussions were moved to Marvin). Things like motherboards with ISA slots, 3dfx video cards, Creative hanging note bugs, best soundfont-capable card for DOS system, latest nVidia and ATI GPUs that still support Windows 98, and how to connect retro sound module to modern PCs; those were the things back then.

In fact, the reason I joined Vogons is to find out more about building the best retro PC to play the games I like. On the other hand, DOSBOX is pretty much straightforward that I hardly need help to play DOS games with it. If it was for DOSBOX alone I wouldn't be likely to join this forum, since running DOS games in DOSBOX tend to be straightforward and trouble-free.