X58 + Yamaha7x4/AureaV1/2 Sound-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list(+i865/VIA) +research+ultimate configs, WIP- gurus needed

Getting old software/games running on older hardware.

Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-19 @ 18:22

I removed old config files and update configs destription to be up to date.

Also added - Brief summary of modern HW options and there advantages and disadvantages at top of the guide.

Update: Transformem some EMS problem, tuning text to some basic how to set EMS guide.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-20 @ 00:37

Ok, i wrote summary of X58 testing - at the end of first post. I will still add some more games to compatibility lists in future from time to time.

For now i did everything what i could without additional help from other people or additional hardware.
Im would need help in those areas, to make additional progress:
  1. JEMM with DSDMA.exe - i dont know that else to try, i think that i could reach dead end, because when DSDMA.EXE is loaded and some more modern games im getting:
    DOS/16M error: [17] system software does not follow VCPI or DPMI specifications
  2. Test results of games from my problematic games (~25) demo versions would be good too by other people with Yamahas.
  3. Test results of games from my problematic games (~25) demo versions would be good too by other people with X58 or other modern MB with Aureal Vortex 2, im planning to buy one but it take months
  4. Help to analyse why problematic games not working and make some workarounds, code some fixed, or fix them with use of additional utilities.
  5. There is still lots of things in For now few(= a lot) questions / todo (answered things moved in other sections- slowly..) section, who could be address to make things more clear.
Thanks to all who helped.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby dr_st » 2018-7-20 @ 06:39

dr_st wrote:
Falcosoft wrote:I would not bet against you and it's because of the 'can use' phrase. But I do think it's also not so easy to list games that require EMS. I don't think there are so many. Just for a reference:
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/inde ... 24091.html
Yes, that's indeed the first thing you see. I saw that thread too. :) I would also clarify that in my view, if a game needs EMS for some important functionality, like digital audio, it also falls into the "needs" category, rather than "can use".

In any case, I can really try to start such a list, by trying all my titles in DOSBox with "ems=false" and see which ones complain. I recall it was more than a couple, but it was so long ago that I don't remember specifics.
I've completed the check with the DOS games I have in my current DOSBox setup, and started a list:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Li ... equire_EMS
(I only added games I could verify myself; some of the ones in that VCFED thread I don't have and couldn't check)

Feel free to contribute, and to start a similar list of games that require real mode. :)
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-20 @ 16:26

dr_st wrote:I've completed the check with the DOS games I have in my current DOSBox setup, and started a list.

Something from my research, rechecked in Dosbox..
NHL 93 - Insufficient EMS available. Requires an additional 204KB bytes.
Ultima Underwold - Out of EMS memory. Error code C001.
Ultima Underwold 2 - - Out of EMS memory. Error code C001.
Dark lands - Unable to find EMS memory
Master of Magic - You must have at least 2700K of expanded memory.
I did not test all games from my list in no EMS mode, but these are i checked that is not working.

Ganes which are requiring realmode or protection mode:
Wing Commander: Armada
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-7-20 @ 19:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby dr_st » 2018-7-20 @ 18:25

ruthan wrote:Something from my research, rechecked in Dosbox..
NHL 93 - Insufficient EMS available. Requires an additional 2047 J bytes.
Ultima Underwold - Out of EMS memory. Error code C001.
Ultima Underwold 2 - - Out of EMS memory. Error code C001.
Dark lands - Unable to find EMS memory
Master of Magic - You must have at least 2700K of expanded memory.
I did not test all games from my list in no EMS mode, but these are i checked that is not working.
Thank you! I added them to the list and referenced your post in the edit notes.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby PARUS » 2018-7-21 @ 20:58

ruthan, you do first test on very fast system and want to get proper results with all tested games. It is incorrect way. You don't know now 100% if a game won't work because sound card or too fast CPU/FSB or PCI-E video. If you want to be sure about sound card(s) compatibility with DOS games you should first exclude too fast system issues. I.e. at first to test on slow system with equal other conditions, and then at second a same tests on X58.

"Equal other conditions" - a system without DDMA support. But as slowest as it possible and with native PCI bus + PCI video card. ICH5 doesn't suit, it has DDMA. There are i915+ICH6 and i945+ICH7. You can plug one of slowest 775 CPUs - Celeron 420/430 or Celeron D 2,53-2,66GHz and throttle CPU 8 times via 19Ah MSR (0x12 value); take a card like S3 Trio or similar. It will be ensurance that you will not get overkill CPU speed issues. Then compare games results to X58 and Core i7. And it will be correct way!

If a game works properly on slow 775 system but won't work properly on X58 you will know exactly: it is not game-soundcard incompatibility.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-22 @ 01:15

PARUS wrote:ruthan, you do first test on very fast system and want to get proper results with all tested games. It is incorrect way. You don't know now 100% if a game won't work because sound card or too fast CPU/FSB or PCI-E video. If you want to be sure about sound card(s) compatibility with DOS games you should first exclude too fast system issues. I.e. at first to test on slow system with equal other conditions, and then at second a same tests on X58.

I would say that is typical chicken / egg problem.. i also would say than claims about to fast CPU/FSB are generally overated and i tested all problematic game with setmul l1d, which downgraded my machine somewere to 486 is slow enough.. also too fast problem could be tested in Dosbox.. from my all 150+ tested games i found only 3 games which are really blocked by CPU speed and where setmul l1d not worked, there were all from company Microprose.. and its known that problem occurs at least on PIII 450, so i would probably have to my test on something like Pentium 200. If games are working without sound well, probably is not because of too fast CPU, there is greyzone, when game has broken sound but i have found less than 5 such games, some have are not working because of yamaha driver limitation (its requiring EMS, some game dont support EMS mode).. and i have found only 6 games which are not working at all - 3 of them because using specific DPMI*.ovl driver, which is high probability not supported by Yamaha driver.. Look at end you my first post - here is such summary. I would say that is theoretically possible that up to 10 games not working because of speed issues, but in reality my quest is real number would be 5..

For me its important how Yamaha 744 works on X58 - i tested it, yeah im interested also in why its not working, but less.. If know that are people with Yamahas and slower machines, so why i would have to all heavy lifting by myself, i did a lot and for other is there only 25 games from 155 to test on slower machines, so say if problems are caused by Yamaha or my too fast machine.. I would bet big money that most of problems are Yamahas problems, because errors messages point to this conclusion.

PARUS wrote:"Equal other conditions" - a system without DDMA support. But as slowest as it possible and with native PCI bus + PCI video card. ICH5 doesn't suit, it has DDMA. There are i915+ICH6 and i945+ICH7. You can plug one of slowest 775 CPUs - Celeron 420/430 or Celeron D 2,53-2,66GHz and throttle CPU 8 times via 19Ah MSR (0x12 value); take a card like S3 Trio or similar. It will be ensurance that you will not get overkill CPU speed issues. Then compare games results to X58 and Core i7. And it will be correct way!

If a game works properly on slow 775 system but won't work properly on X58 you will know exactly: it is not game-soundcard incompatibility.

I retested all problematic games with PCI ATI MACH 64 2MB, after Ati X800 and Nvidia 730/220 testing as i wrote to first post videocards compatibility is overrated a lot.. I would say that maybe 7/8 games have videocards related issues, not all are mandatory... and with Ati 800x / Geforce 730 and primary video card slot selection bios feature i manage to get all of them working.. even without ATI Mach 64.. I dont even fiddle with Univbe and vmodes and similar things - because i dont fully understand them yet. Yeah maybe S3 Trio /Virge would be slighly better, but there were known for some issues even back in day were they were new.. In fact, i have play to get such cards, if it would be cheap and test it, but i really doubt that i will fix more than 1 or 2 problematic games, if any at all.

Equal conditions - i thing that such test would be interesting for you because you have s775 machine :) I thing that is only one generation difference, so not big deal, i something like PI / PII / or K6-II, K6-II test would be much more interesting, but i dont have such machine ready.

BTW Do you have some documentation to burnmem.sys what exactly means parameters - i was able to find magic number for 32 MB of ram on some board, but it not work for other machine.. Documentation in file you linked is in Russian, Chinese or something like that, i can read that.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-22 @ 04:14

I just checked Aureal Vortex 2 dos driver, there is Au30dos.txt where is nice long list of games which were tested with driver and there are also marked games which are requiring realmode.
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/aureal-vortex-2.html - DOS drivers
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby PARUS » 2018-7-22 @ 05:05

:) No, you think wrong, it's not because I have 775 machine. I already said, it's because the slowest machine without DDMA is on ICH6/ICH7 bridge.

OK, you guess that setmul and l1d is good enough. I don't think so. But maybe you're right, I don't know. By the way tests on pentium2/k6 and similar aren't interesting because DDMA present.

I don't want to compare with my 775 system. I've checked it many times, it can get performance down to XT easy and without issues. 99,99% games work properly. Not simply "work" but exactly "properly" i.e. without gameplay time jumps/freezes.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby dr_st » 2018-7-22 @ 08:45

ruthan wrote:i also would say than claims about to fast CPU/FSB are generally overated and i tested all problematic game with setmul l1d, which downgraded my machine somewere to 486 is slow enough.. also too fast problem could be tested in Dosbox.. from my all 150+ tested games i found only 3 games which are really blocked by CPU speed and where setmul l1d not worked, there were all from company Microprose.. and its known that problem occurs at least on PIII 450, so i would probably have to my test on something like Pentium 200. If games are working without sound well, probably is not because of too fast CPU, there is greyzone, when game has broken sound but i have found less than 5 such games
It's true that games that are very speed-sensitive usually break down and become unplayable way before you reach Core 2 or even Pentium 4.

But the sound detection routines are a bit tricky. There are games where the gameplay itself is properly coded to be independent of CPU clock, but the sound detection routines are not; so a game might play fine at proper speed, but will not detect the sound card if CPU is too fast. Off the top of my head I can think of a few such games - Lemmings, Prince of Persia (original 1.0 release), Mortal Kombat. There are definitely more.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby PARUS » 2018-7-22 @ 09:44

dr_st, yes! I mean this too.

And in my experience minimal multiplier + l1d is very rude. It is better to have different disabling l2/l1 and activate throttle MSR for additional opportunity.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-22 @ 18:18

Speed issues - i would be against myself to dont test all problematic games with setmul l1d to check, if slower cpu would make game working.. so there is such issues, unless too slow machine, could broke it too?

I played all tested games for while and i Dosbox too and with help of slowdos and setmul l1d, i really made all games with speed issues working fine.. Someone could retest it too and my personal credibility is involved, so it would be stupid to made false claims.
I found maybe 3 games with broken (absend) frame pacing like Battle arena Toshiden and Destruction Derby 2, where you need to use slodows and other games need only some adjustment and i added to ever working game, note which value was used. Setmul is usually needed for much older games, for which is slow 486 speed fair enough.. I dont mind some better tools for adjusting speed, but i dont find game, where is wouldnt be able to set right speed with setmul or slowdos combo..

dr_st wrote:
ruthan wrote:Lemmings, Prince of Persia (original 1.0 release), Mortal Kombat.

I didnt test MK I, but for Lemmings and Prince of Persia, i had to use setmul l1d and there is slow 486 machine speed just fine.

Update: I wonder if Throlle and MSRED, Chacectl are working on Core 2 machines in ems mode? Because as Falcosoft point out, such utilities could require protected mode and it means no sound with Yamaha DSDMA anyway.. this would be benefit of Core 2 machine..
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby RayeR » 2018-7-22 @ 20:02

You can add another 1 game:
Sandwarriors - sfx: SB16, music: adlib, works fine, clean sound. (game doesn't need EMS just v86 mode for DSDMA).
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-22 @ 20:27

RayeR wrote:You can add another 1 game:
Sandwarriors - sfx: SB16, music: adlib, works fine, clean sound. (game doesn't need EMS just v86 mode for DSDMA).

Thanks i need also name of Mboard, where is was tested, i have found demo, so to keep guidelines, i will test it too on X58.

Also added more info about Aureal Vortex 1 / 2 and ESS-Solo cards..
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-7-22 @ 21:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby RayeR » 2018-7-22 @ 20:37

MB: Gigabyte GA-P67-DS3-B3
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby Kamerat » 2018-7-23 @ 10:30

Repost of the original 2nd post of the therad:

I made a little compatibility list for the YMF744

using the DSDMA TSR a couple of years ago if you're interested (done on the older P965 chipset though).


I listed Warcraft II under compatible, but it still got issues with scrolling like you did. Pinball Fantasies

needs disabling of cache for smoother sound.

ruthan wrote:Games which are not working for now:
...
Dune II - At least in XMS mode - i select house and nothing happens.. Music is still playing, PC Speaker mode

is working fine, with sound driver its working. Setmul l1d doesnt help. // Dosbox:Ok

Seems like Dune II struggles with the

YMF744 even in DDMA mode.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-23 @ 21:33

Just find out list of CPU sensitive games there, add to guide:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Li ... tive_games // I would say that this list like Setmul, almost as i do.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-24 @ 04:05

Config files overhaul lots of new features - QEMM support, 5 different Audiocards drivers possibilities selection in all branches selection just by set 1 variable in autoexec header (Creative, Yamaha, Aureal V1+V2,ESS Solo-1), SHSUCDX and its virtual cd driver ready to use.. Drivers and utils package to supplement config files.. to make it almost copy and run.. Every line commented, long guide for EMS problem solving and tuning.

Details:
- my ultimate branched config - 9 Dos configuration branches (+ others could be enabled, but you have to disable some now enable, 9 enabled branches is max.):
a) First 2 are Windows 98 boot and Windows 98 safe mode boot,
b) EMS(HimemX (or burnmem+Himem.sys) + emm386.exe RAM),
c) NOEMS (HimemX (or burnmem) + EMM386.EXE noems),
d) Realmode (HimemX/ burnmem loaded, no EMS loaded) no sound because Yamaha TSR - DMA driver requiring EMS/NOEMS) / same for Creative SB for Audigy/!Live
e) Protection mode (no Himem, no EMS) , no sound because Yamaha TSR - DMA driver requiring EMS/NOEMS) / same for Creative SB for Audigy/!Live
f) 4 items are debugs for testing games with / without Sound / CD-ROM/ Smart-Drive/ driver loaded and two with SB IRQ 7 - because it matters, are also UMPCI mode (no Yamaha /Creative sound) and JEMM386 mode, EMEX mode and two QEMMU modes. JEMM and JEMM386 not working for my machine with Yamaha DSDMA.exe which is needed on new chipsets for Sound, so no sound.
- every used variable and lines are commented!, when is some line firstly used, its any other config files on internet you have to searching on internet.. IF you want to clean code only just remove all lines with starting REM or @REM with some inteligent text replacing utility.
Config supports 5 different Audio drivers for all branches - there are options for Yamaha 72x/74x (up to X58 and H67). Creative cards - !Live/Audigy DOS/Win98 compatible cards for up to i865 chipsets, ESS Solo-1 (it work somewhere up to i865), Aureal Vortex 1 and 2 (there are working on new chipsets too, at least up toX58).
- Change sound card driver is very easy, just set value on my variable at the top of autoexec.bat and change is used for all branches with support sound on particular card!
- There is also possibility to select CD-ROM handler for all branches for CD-ROM, you can select betwen MSCDEX(conventional mem eater) and SHSUCDX - less memory and there is added even virtual CD drive ready to use, just replace iso file, once again, all of these could be changed by 1 parameter at top of autoexec.bat.
- Problems:
1) i dont have burnemem.sys documentation so my magic value for 32MB of dos Ram not working everywhere, alternative is disable burnmem.sys and himem.sys lines and enable himemX as alternative, i compatibility is same..
2) On some machine you have problem with default EMS - EMM386.exe RAM setting, it simply not working on some machine, it give you in front magic variable with are working on every machine, but in config is very long guide how to fix it and squeeze maximal amount of conventional memory for every machine..
3) There some reported error in Config.sys Common block with some optimal lang. setting, i dont know where is problem, but its minor..
4) First CD-ROM letter is hardcoded to E, because SHSUCDX otherwise using A and B letters, if they are free. To change it replace all /L:E for MSCDEX and SUSHCDX
5) SET PATH is ok for MS-DOS 7.1 (up to 260 lettters), but is too long for 6.22- 126 letter you have to some deletion

Drivers /utils package to support config files
- i created Drivers package to just copy files to target machine and make it working. All drivers have to be copied to C:\Drivers all pathes and ini files are set to this directory - you use change it by mass replace in package by search this string by some multiple text files replace utility.
I cant include MS files, which are described in !AddFile.txt in driver root, as EMM386,MSCDEX etc.. all of these should be also copied to C:\Drivers directory to make package maximaly portable, because people are using different patches and version of WIndows and DOS etc. Some is with other licenced tools like QEMM etc..config files are ready to use it.
Download: // last version: 20180724-2
download/file.php?id=50249

Drivers / Utils Package contains these items:
  • Pure Dos Audio drivers for all cards mentioned above
  • CPUcache - for slowdown
  • Dos32A extender, which you could try when you have problems with game which is using DOS4GW
  • Doskey - commaline with autocompletion and memory
  • FW - advanced File Wizzard
  • JEMM / JEMMEX alterantive memory manager to EMM386 from Freedos
  • RunTE200 - it could fix some game executable files with Runtime error 200 (pascal)
  • SHSUCDX - CD rom handler and virtual cd rom driver and imaging utility
  • SpeedSys - HW monitoring benchmarking utility
  • UMBPCI - alternative memory driver / manager
  • Burnmem.sys for limiting max memory for pure Dos to fix too much RAM problems
  • CTMouse - freedos mouse utility, less memory used, more options
  • 3 different CD ROM drivers for physical CD-ROM, because so not working with some drivers, chipset.. sata included, just enable / disable specific line in CDROM block of config.sys its aplied to all branches
  • HimemX - to limit max RAM for pure to burnemem.sys + himem.sys alternative.. now its used only for Win9x branches, you can use it for pure DOS, just by comment and uncomemnt 3 lines.
  • CHKCPU - cpu info utility up to 2016
  • Memory usage detail utility - good to debug
  • MTRRLFBE - videocard speedup utility for DOS.
  • Rawspeed - Rayers utility to measure disk speed
  • Serren - Rayers utility to enable some magic to make Creative card working on some chipsets
  • Setmul - utility to enable / disable cpu cache, very good slow down utility, disable L1 could give you something like slow 486 speed on X58
  • Shutdown - shutdown / reset from commandline
  • Slowdos - slowdown utility, where you can set speed my very small steps
  • Udma - driver to speed up files transfers, config is ready for it, just uncomment it if you have enough conventional memory

Download: // last version: 20180724-2
download/file.php?id=50250

Licence thing - if you own right on something in package or know about some licence problems with included utility, just write me PM i will remove it.

I dont mind add support for more PCI sound cards when you will give best drivers for dos and autoexec/config lines.. I dont want to add ISA cards support, to keep reasonable scope, this project and huge config make more sense for modern machines.

Disclaimer: I never was expert if these things, but its helping me, so it could help someone too. I dont have supported audio cards, so some testing is needed. Any practical edit notes are welcome.

All of these added to first post, i have to move not working games to second post because of post characters limit.
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-7-24 @ 17:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-24 @ 16:42

Small config drivers package update, links above were refreshed
- added CMEDIA 8738 PCI Soundcard which had some pure Dos support, there is test by Phil on Slot1 MB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHKa-TE-U4Y&t=2063s // It tested in on X58 device not found.
- ESS-Solo1, because driver not requiring EMS (benefit) to run all to all Branches with Sound..
- change if not valid variable value for Sound card or CD handler is set, there is not first valid options used, instead - no sound driver and no cd handler

Added Powerslave as compatible.. Vortex 1 card is on the way.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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ruthan
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-25 @ 01:57

Config files fixes / improvements:
- Some jumps not worked how they should - resulted that soundcards driver with EMS only drivers, where loaded in no EMS sections - it should be fixed, all
jump labels are now unique per branch. Same for CD handlers, it ws lots of editing so its possible that some shenanigans will occur..
- first CD-ROM driver had wrong name optical - changed to CDROM, to bu compabitle withou other options, Afaik i can use if branching in config.sys,
co you have select drivers CD-ROM driver by editation of config.sys CD-ROM section, there 3 drivers for different types of drives and machines.
- definition of first cd letter for all branches are at 1 place at the top of
autoexec
- right name for QEMM NO EMS path - label was same as for EMS option
- prompt visual change $p to $p$g
- IRQ 7 for CMedia instead of IRQ5 copy/paste mistake
- PATH parameter for MS DOS 6.22 and earlier has limit 126 character, so i added, at the top of autoexec variable for it- default is Dos7 PATH

Drivers package:
- Added Rayers 512MB+ w98iopatch for safe mode with HIMEMX.exe.. or you can sure burnmem for this option too
- added some text info files to some utils
- added Cachectl Slowdown for Core 2 machines and earlier
- added MSRED Slowdown for Core 2 machines
- added Throttle - CPU slowdown utility for Core 2 Duo, not working for X58 in
EMS mode
- added Vesa info print info about videocard capabalities use with vesainfo >vesainfo.txt to print it to file

Files are uploaded to first post - search for 20180725 text
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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ruthan
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Posts: 1094
Joined: 2013-3-07 @ 04:01
Location: Schwarz Wald-from France to Ukraine, from Denmark to Austria. Celts+German+Slavs melting pot.

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