I do understand your pain... and I've settled for a Windows 2000 Professional virtual machine on vmware for my games.

It's strange how certain problems seem to follow people through the years no matter how much time has passed or how many different machines they try things on. It won't be much comfort to you but I've never had such problems with any Win 9x install I've attempted.

The first thing I would attempt to do is look at the device manager and see if you are getting any warnings or have any uninstalled hardware drivers. If you don't know how this is done just right click on 'My Computer' , choose 'Properties', then 'Hardware' tab, then 'Device Manager'.

My first suspicion would be the SATA to IDE adapters. Also you don't mention how much RAM you are using in these machines, I imagine since you are able to install you are at or under 512MB but perhaps you have an unusual configuration? Just checking to make sure.

Don't use unofficial service packs, ever. 98SE plus USB drivers is all you should need.

Can you boot into safemode by pressing F8 during boot? How does the computer operate when you are in safe mode? Do you still have weirdness?

Remove all hardware except a video card, ram, and a mass storage device. I would consider trying an IDE HDD so you can avoid the SATA to IDE adapter. Don't install any drivers windows itself doesn't install and see if the system is stable. Then install one device at a time and check for system stability after each. That way we can try to narrow down what might be causing the issue.

Also another thought, have you tried different RAM?

Stick with it, the only way to ever put these troubles to rest is head on.

I have to say I can not really relate.
Sure the installer isn't 100% and especially fdisk is pretty useless most of the time but I've never experienced such major hassle as you have.
The only time I really ran into major problems, bluescreens and crashes was when I first used an Abit KT7A RAID with the bugged VIA southbridge and a SoundBlaster Audigy 2 so I got lots of data corruption. The problem was solved by using the integrated RAID controller for the HDD and obviously hardware related.
Cutting it short I don't know why it works so badly for you. 🙁
I remember Win98 crashing between once a week to once a month back then and that's about the rate I'm experiencing now. Obviously that wouldn't be acceptable with a modern system but back then it was considered normal.
CF/SD cards can cause short system freezes when write-behind caching is enabled btw.

When I had some of the problems you are describing, it was a failing HDD. Am I right that you have used only one IDE HDD? I don't use SSD (didn't even know this was possible with 98SE), CF, or SD with 98SE -- just old fashioned IDE HDD. I would source another one rather than use the solid state stuff, which works great in DOS for me, but I don't trust it for Windows.

boxpressed wrote on 2020-02-16, 06:16:

When I had some of the problems you are describing, it was a failing HDD. Am I right that you have used only one IDE HDD? I don't use SSD (didn't even know this was possible with 98SE), CF, or SD with 98SE -- just old fashioned IDE HDD. I would source another one rather than use the solid state stuff, which works great in DOS for me, but I don't trust it for Windows.

I run an SSD on my Win98SE rig without a problem but I have native SATA support.

Shagittarius wrote on 2020-02-16, 06:02:

The first thing I would attempt to do is look at the device manager and see if you are getting any warnings or have any uninstalled hardware drivers. If you don't know how this is done just right click on 'My Computer' , choose 'Properties', then 'Hardware' tab, then 'Device Manager'.

Device manager, after all drivers are installed I'm pretty sure is always devoid of any of those yellow exclamation points.

Shagittarius wrote on 2020-02-16, 06:02:

My first suspicion would be the SATA to IDE adapters. Also you don't mention how much RAM you are using in these machines, I imagine since you are able to install you are at or under 512MB but perhaps you have an unusual configuration? Just checking to make sure.

The SATA to IDE adapters I'm using are the StarTech ones I've had good luck with on consoles like Dreamcast. I also picked up a different type (suggested in my build topic I made here – the guy says it's his go-to and that he's tried many others) which plugs directly into the IDE on the MB. Also have (on the non-Dell computer) a regular spinning mechanical drive.

I put up an eBay alert for a Promise SATA150 TX2plus PCI card (said to be best, and only one which has Win98 drivers), and I finally got one this week but haven't tried it out yet. Seems to be able to run 2x SATA drives (without any adapters/converters but the PCI card itself) + a regular IDE drive (assuming two on the same cable) but I haven't used it yet (haven't even researched what's involved yet). Ideally this would let me run my 2gb CF card for DOS on IDE, my primary 120gb SSD via SATA, and my secondary 120GB SSD on the 2nd SATA line.

I'm using 256mb of RAM. I was told that certain DOS games (think they mentioned Crusader?) won't play if you have more RAM than that.

Shagittarius wrote on 2020-02-16, 06:02:

Don't use unofficial service packs, ever. 98SE plus USB drivers is all you should need.

Can you boot into safemode by pressing F8 during boot? How does the computer operate when you are in safe mode? Do you still have weirdness?

I didn't use any service packs until a couple weeks in - and they seemed to do more harm than good TBH (the 2004 security patch one I can't tell if it does anything positive or not - just started using that one this week).

I'm using the nubs36E USB driver (and that's how I get most of the files onto this machine...well, all the games are on a 2nd SSD now since I've been switching them back and forth as I format and reinstall windows).

Safe mode only lets me have a small like 640x480 desktop (if that), so it's unusable for anything (even copying files I can barely fit 2x Explorer windows side by side!). I can boot into safe mode fine. And sometimes when regular mode freezes up on reboot, I can boot into safe mode, then reboot again into regular and it'll be fine.

Shagittarius wrote on 2020-02-16, 06:02:

Remove all hardware except a video card, ram, and a mass storage device. I would consider trying an IDE HDD so you can avoid the SATA to IDE adapter. Don't install any drivers windows itself doesn't install and see if the system is stable. Then install one device at a time and check for system stability after each. That way we can try to narrow down what might be causing the issue.

Also another thought, have you tried different RAM?

I tried that at the very first problem as that's the first step of troubleshooting in my eyes....but it's not that easy. These problems don't always crop up immediately (like they've done today, 2x reinstalls in a row grrr!). They can be fine for a few days, or fine for a couple hours.

For RAM – it tests fine in the BIOS (the boot-up test), and I believe is matched brand/type. The other Dell has mismatched RAM (at least different brands, one is taller than the other). I'm sure I can buy some RAM for cheap if you think that's worth it to try (I have 3x banks, and these are 128mb in 2x of those).

I also want to reinforce that the two computers I've been messing with the most are the two Dell's. Totally separate machines with different RAM, HDD's, etc. Same exact type of problems on each of them. The other system is the one I was messing with probably a year ago the most often (only a bit now), and I know I had other weird/similar issues on Win98SE on that one as well.... so I just don't know what it could be. That one didn't even have any of these fancy cards - it has integrated graphics and sound even (and I would be lying if I said I remembered exactly what that one did....just know I had to reinstall Windows probably 3+ times on that to get it to work half way decently).

boxpressed wrote on 2020-02-16, 06:16:

When I had some of the problems you are describing, it was a failing HDD. Am I right that you have used only one IDE HDD? I don't use SSD (didn't even know this was possible with 98SE), CF, or SD with 98SE -- just old fashioned IDE HDD. I would source another one rather than use the solid state stuff, which works great in DOS for me, but I don't trust it for Windows.

I've tried 2x SSD's (120gb max size for Win98), with 3x SATA to IDE adapters (2x different brands/types), + a regular old fashioned spinning mechanical HDD for the non-Dell.

I know I was never able to get the SSD's "4k partition aligned" due to not having a Linux box (and numerous boot-up partition CD's won't boot-up on Pentium III's evidentially so those didn't work), but it seems like I would need millions and millions of writes on these SSD's before they start to go corrupt so I haven't been worrying about it.

What does everybody think of me trying Windows 2000 Professional? I'm burning a CD of it right now...just sayin' 😉 . I'm finding some posts that say it won't run DOS games at all....which seems weird to me since 2000 is based on DOS. Are they maybe talking about running DOS games inside Windows and the compatibility there not being as good as Win98?? I'm fine rebooting into DOS mode to run DOS games (I've been using Phil's Computer Lab's reboot file for that to good effect).

Besides that, what else can I try on the Win98 setups? Like I said I can't really run like 1 card at a time until I find out that the problem is (if it's even one card alone causing issues).... like what would I be doing with the computer in the meanwhile? I can't test and run/play games without sound if I remove the sound cards. Can't play much of anything if I switch out the GeForce 4 ti card for a super slow/older one. Can't run the Voodoo2's in SLI without a 2D card installed as well (and again, would drive me crazy to play anything without proper sound!).

Are there any testing programs I should be using to run tests? Like HDD tests (which I don't know how well those would do on a SSD), RAM tests, video card tests, etc. It really does seem like a hardware fault somewhere...

Thanks for all the suggestions so far (and letting me know I'm not completely alone in my issues 🤣).

Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-02-16, 07:44:

I'm using the nubs36E USB driver (and that's how I get most of the files onto this machine...well, all the games are on a 2nd SSD now since I've been switching them back and forth as I format and reinstall windows).

I doubt this is causing your issues, since they seem to be much more severe than what I've ever experienced, but I thought I'd mention it just in case. On my Abit Kt7A, the on-board USB was somewhat troublesome, so I disabled it completely. My main problem was that it seemed to take up at least 3 separate IRQ values, which conflicted with my sound card and caused it to behave strangely, sometimes failing to initialize other times stuttering in games. Nusb also never worked reliably for me, often causing weird failures when copying files to and from the USB stick.

As for transferring data to and from the retro computer, I'm now using an old Realtek 100 Mbit network card. It has drivers for Win9x and uses only a single IRQ value (which I can select manually) and that works perfectly for my needs. It might be worthwhile to disable on-board USB in BIOS, install Windows 98SE without the nusb drivers or any other service packs and see if that makes a difference.

What does everybody think of me trying Windows 2000 Professional? I'm burning a CD of it right now...just sayin' 😉 . I'm finding some posts that say it won't run DOS games at all....which seems weird to me since 2000 is based on DOS.

Windows 2000 is not based on DOS. It's a successor to Windows NT 4.0 and is using much of the same technology.

You won't have much luck with DOS games there, but most Windows 9x games should work fine.

Starting the Windows 9x setup via CD-ROM is often buggy.
(Hey, It's Win9x, after all. It must be buggy. 😉 )

A long time ago I switched to partitioning/formatting the HDD first, -without making things bootable- (FORMAT C: /B),
then copying WIN98 (WIN9X) and DRIVERS directory over to it.

After that, I boot via WIN98 CD-ROM, select the CD-ROM driver enabled option and after DOS is up and running, manually switch to C:\WIN98,
from where I invoke SETUP with or without the parameters /N /M..

Windows 2000 Pro is a great OS in its own right, but it is most certainly NOT built on DOS. It's true NT kernel. You might as well go with Windows XP

Some systems are just not meant for some OSes. I used win98se from 2000 to 2006 (Yes, I was happy with it), and during this period have re-installed it many times without a problem. Why so many re-installs, it wasn't pc's or win98's fault, because I was screwing it up, I was experimenting a lot and breaking it down, trying to understand how pc works. Also not yet knowing how to dual-boot, I was sometimes installing linux suse, and after a week of realizing that it is crap I was reinstalling win98se again.

I'm running Win98se on about 10 retro systems now and never had such problems. I usually don't mix old and new hardware, however. SSDs, SATA-to-IDE crap and all that stuff does not belong into a Win98 retro machine based on a Pentium III. Use proper hardware from that time period and all will probably work as it should.

Also, I never use any ISOs downloaded from the net. I copy the install files from my original CD and that is all I ever use. There are only two issues with Win98 you almost can't avoid: In most cases, the first shutdown / reboot after seeing the Desktop for the first time will result in a blue screen (about every second system did that). Second, shutting down is generally unstable and often will hang with a blinking cursor.

Another thing Win98 is very bad at is ACPI. Make sure it's turned off in the BIOS *before* installing Win98, as you can not remove ACPI support from Win98 once it has been installed.

derSammler wrote on 2020-02-16, 15:57:

I'm running Win98se on about 10 retro systems now and never had such problems. I usually don't mix old and new hardware, however. SSDs, SATA-to-IDE crap and all that stuff does not belong into a Win98 retro machine based on a Pentium III. Use proper hardware from that time period and all will probably work as it should.

Basically this. I find it hard to believe that you are replicating the same errors across multiple systems and components. Simplify. Buy a brand new 120GB IDE HDD from eBay for $20, and stop watching Phil's videos for a while.

Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-02-16, 07:44:

.... Also have (on the non-Dell computer) a regular spinning mechanical drive. ....

You have a clearly a problem with your harddisk subsystem.
So I fully agree with the answers of the other people here.

What about that mechanical drive? Did you install Windows 98 SE on that? Did it work?

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-02-16, 08:28:

As for transferring data to and from the retro computer, I'm now using an old Realtek 100 Mbit network card. It has drivers for Win9x and uses only a single IRQ value (which I can select manually) and that works perfectly for my needs. It might be worthwhile to disable on-board USB in BIOS, install Windows 98SE without the nusb drivers or any other service packs and see if that makes a difference.

With all the cards installed I don't have room for an ethernet adapter - every slot is filled. Right now though, since I have all the cards except the video card pulled I guess I could try that. One of the Dell's came with an ethernet card which I assume works in Win98.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-02-16, 08:28:

What does everybody think of me trying Windows 2000 Professional? I'm burning a CD of it right now...just sayin' 😉 . I'm finding some posts that say it won't run DOS games at all....which seems weird to me since 2000 is based on DOS.

Windows 2000 is not based on DOS. It's a successor to Windows NT 4.0 and is using much of the same technology.

You won't have much luck with DOS games there, but most Windows 9x games should work fine.

Thanks for clarifying. The Wiki said that Windows ME was "the last DOS-based version of Windows", and since Window 2000 came out before ME I just assumed 2000 was based off DOS as well. I guess asking if I should try Windows ME instead is out of the question? I still remember all the problems everybody was having with that OS back then.... and since the majority of the games I play are later DOS games I don't want to use XP (I have so many games, that for proper midi sound I have to reboot into MS-DOS mode so I don't think XP is an option).

Jo22 wrote on 2020-02-16, 11:14:

A long time ago I switched to partitioning/formatting the HDD first, -without making things bootable- (FORMAT C: /B), then copyi […]
Show full quote

A long time ago I switched to partitioning/formatting the HDD first, -without making things bootable- (FORMAT C: /B),
then copying WIN98 (WIN9X) and DRIVERS directory over to it.

After that, I boot via WIN98 CD-ROM, select the CD-ROM driver enabled option and after DOS is up and running, manually switch to C:\WIN98,
from where I invoke SETUP with or without the parameters /N /M..

I started trying to format the SSD's with 4K partition alignment which Win98 setup did NOT like (think I posted about that problem here as well). After that I gave up and usually booted from Win98SE CD into DOS mode, used Fdisk to delete the partition on the SSD then create a new primary one, then relaunched Windows setup (either by rebooting or doing to D:\ and running setup). I never tried any /N or /M setting (don't know what those do). Windows then always prompted me to do a full format of the SSD which takes about an hour and a half.

A little later I also did format, and quick format (think so, /q) of the SSD on occasion from DOS since the full format Windows setup does takes so long.

maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-02-16, 15:39:

Windows 2000 Pro is a great OS in its own right, but it is most certainly NOT built on DOS. It's true NT kernel. You might as well go with Windows XP

I have so many games I have to run with 'reboot in ms-dos mode' to get sound working I don't think XP is an option for me.

mhdbox385 wrote on 2020-02-16, 15:46:

Some systems are just not meant for some OSes. I used win98se from 2000 to 2006 (Yes, I was happy with it), and during this period have re-installed it many times without a problem. Why so many re-installs, it wasn't pc's or win98's fault, because I was screwing it up, I was experimenting a lot and breaking it down, trying to understand how pc works. Also not yet knowing how to dual-boot, I was sometimes installing linux suse, and after a week of realizing that it is crap I was reinstalling win98se again.

I totally agree I'm new and learning. But we're literally talking about multiple installs where I pop the Windows 98 CD in, hit next, next, next, next, then boot-up (like literally ZERO chance of user error), and I still get funky things happening right off the get-fo...like complete with me taking pictures and filming such behavior....like it's insane...and we're talking different computers here with different burns of Win98SE... haven't even tried to dual-boot yet either!

derSammler wrote on 2020-02-16, 15:57:

I'm running Win98se on about 10 retro systems now and never had such problems. I usually don't mix old and new hardware, however. SSDs, SATA-to-IDE crap and all that stuff does not belong into a Win98 retro machine based on a Pentium III. Use proper hardware from that time period and all will probably work as it should.

Also, I never use any ISOs downloaded from the net. I copy the install files from my original CD and that is all I ever use. There are only two issues with Win98 you almost can't avoid: In most cases, the first shutdown / reboot after seeing the Desktop for the first time will result in a blue screen (about every second system did that). Second, shutting down is generally unstable and often will hang with a blinking cursor.

Several times I used my original ISO of regular Windows 98 (don't think it was SE). I've had that file on my computer for ~20ish years! (the CD was long since damaged). Using this also gives me problems.

I just looked on eBay to buy a new physical/original disk. Am I ok with the versions which say "for distribution with a new PC only"? I always worry about those being like Dell-centric or Gateway-centric or whatever which might not play nice on the wrong model computer. Don't know which versions of SE would be the regular vanilla version which works on ANY PC from any manufacturer (oh, and I use the phrase "works" with a grain of salt of course 😉

For the blue screen, strangely enough that has been one of my most rare problems. And out of ~20 or so (I really don't know how many, I've literally lost count it's been so many times) I only had one install with the hang bug where it wouldn't shut down regularly (BUT, I remember this happening ALL the time back in the day - like for 10 years straight I couldn't shut down without manually turning the computer off!).

derSammler wrote on 2020-02-16, 15:57:

Another thing Win98 is very bad at is ACPI. Make sure it's turned off in the BIOS *before* installing Win98, as you can not remove ACPI support from Win98 once it has been installed.

ACPI is the power management? Could that possibly cause any of these weird problems? In my 440bx BIOS I have "Power Management" as "Enabled" - so I should definitely turn that off?

boxpressed wrote on 2020-02-16, 16:26:

derSammler wrote on 2020-02-16, 15:57:

I'm running Win98se on about 10 retro systems now and never had such problems. I usually don't mix old and new hardware, however. SSDs, SATA-to-IDE crap and all that stuff does not belong into a Win98 retro machine based on a Pentium III. Use proper hardware from that time period and all will probably work as it should.

Basically this. I find it hard to believe that you are replicating the same errors across multiple systems and components. Simplify. Buy a brand new 120GB IDE HDD from eBay for $20, and stop watching Phil's videos for a while.

Only same components are the video and sound cards I'm using on both Dell's. Everything else I have multiples of (entire different computers with MB's, RAM, SSD's, cables, CD drives, floppy drives, etc.). for the last 2 weeks it's been mainly on my Dell T500 (with 700mhz Slot 1 upgrade) since that has the non-jacked-up case. For the ~2 weeks prior to that I had the Dell T700r (both bought from eBay as I couldn't find anything local for the last year or so).

I just popped in the 10GB mechanical drive from the non-Dell... but REALLY don't want to give up on SSD's as they limit one more moving part prone to breakage...

CoffeeOne wrote on 2020-02-16, 16:43:

You have a clearly a problem with your harddisk subsystem. So I fully agree with the answers of the other people here. […]
Show full quote

Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-02-16, 07:44:

.... Also have (on the non-Dell computer) a regular spinning mechanical drive. ....

You have a clearly a problem with your harddisk subsystem.
So I fully agree with the answers of the other people here.

What about that mechanical drive? Did you install Windows 98 SE on that? Did it work?

I haven't used the mechanical drive on the Dell's - just popped it out of the non-Dell though... it worked OK on the non-Dell, still had to reinstall several times to get a working install (but it was WAY easier on that non-Dell because I was using the integrated graphics and sound - no cards/drivers to deal with really....but a VERY limited system because of that - doesn't even have AGP or ISA slots for example, only PCI).

So are you pretty certain that it couldn't be something else? Like bad RAM or bad cable(s) or something I can't even think of? I keep telling myself 'there's no way TWO computers could BOTH have faulty parts'....but who friggin knows.

So are you pretty certain that it couldn't be something else? Like bad RAM or bad cable(s) or something I can't even think of? I keep telling myself 'there's no way TWO computers could BOTH have faulty parts'....but who friggin knows.

Bad RAM certainly not. With bad RAM, Windows would constantly blue-screen and programs would crash with a GPF. What you describe is certainly a problem with the drive Windows is installed on. Especially those lags of up to several minutes is something I experienced myself when using Win9x on flash media. It would fill many pages to explain the technical background why this happens, so let me try to keep it short: due to the lack of flash media support in Win9x (actually up to XP), no TRIM command is ever issued, which in turn means that flash cells are never empty (for the controller) and must be erased whenever Windows writes to the disk. Since only whole blocks but not individual cells can be erased (which is a problem, as block size of the flash memory and cluster size of the FAT are not aligned), this causes a cascade of reads, erasures, and writes. Erasing is very slow, and even a simple action like starting the Windows Explorer may cause thousands of such events. As a result, Windows will be very sluggish.

Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-02-16, 18:54:

I guess asking if I should try Windows ME instead is out of the question? I still remember all the problems everybody was having with that OS back then.... and since the majority of the games I play are later DOS games I don't want to use XP (I have so many games, that for proper midi sound I have to reboot into MS-DOS mode so I don't think XP is an option).

I have only used ME for a few weeks back when it came out, and all I remember is that it crashed constantly on my computer from then. Never tried it since, but I hear other people have had better luck with it.

Also, I think ME removed the "Restart in MS-DOS mode" option.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-02-16, 19:36:

Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-02-16, 18:54:

I guess asking if I should try Windows ME instead is out of the question? I still remember all the problems everybody was having with that OS back then.... and since the majority of the games I play are later DOS games I don't want to use XP (I have so many games, that for proper midi sound I have to reboot into MS-DOS mode so I don't think XP is an option).

I have only used ME for a few weeks back when it came out, and all I remember is that it crashed constantly on my computer from then. Never tried it since, but I hear other people have had better luck with it.

Also, I think ME removed the "Restart in MS-DOS mode" option.

That was a piece of cake to reinstate.

I wonder if your motherboard is going bad. It sounds annoyingly similar to the issues I've been experiencing:
Re: Super Socket 7 Win98SE masochism (work in progress)

I would be tempted to suggest checking the power supply if all other avenues of inquiry have been exhausted.

Dochartaigh wrote on 2020-02-16, 05:41:

The lovely repeating problem of Explorer freezing if I move, copy, or delete a lot of files (seems to be a fault of IE6).

This is indeed a very well-established problem with IE6. Solutions are available.
https://msfn.org/board/topic/84451-98-fe-98-s … shell32dll-fix/