Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-22, 12:56:

Nice! Though DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM D=64 MIN=0 should be under DOS1 instead of DOS2, right?

Oh, true. I will edit this. Didn't read the menus entirely. 🤣

I was confused a bit with my own CONFIG.SYS due to muscle memory.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-22, 12:17:

On a DOS configuration with a menu one can group multiple lines to avoid repetition. […]
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On a DOS configuration with a menu one can group multiple lines to avoid repetition.

For example on CONFIG.SYS:

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1[MENU]
2menuitem=WINDOWS, Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition
3menuitem=DOS1, MS-DOS 7.10 - Expanded Memory
4menuitem=DOS2, MS-DOS 7.10 - Extended memory
5menuitem=DOS3, MS-DOS 7.10 - Conventional Memory
6menudefault=WINDOWS, 5
7
8[COMMON]
9DOS=NOAUTO
10FILES=45
11BUFFERS=30,0
12LASTDRIVE=E
13SET TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
14SET TMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
15
16[HIMEM]
17DOS=HIGH,UMB
18DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
19
20[SETVER]
21DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE
22
23[DOSINIT]
24DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001
25SHELL=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:512 /P
26
27[WINDOWS]
28INCLUDE=HIMEM
29INCLUDE=SETVER
30
31[DOS1]
32INCLUDE=HIMEM
33DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM D=64 MIN=0
34INCLUDE=SETVER
35INCLUDE=DOSINIT
36
37[DOS2]
38INCLUDE=HIMEM
39INCLUDE=SETVER
40INCLUDE=DOSINIT
41
42[DOS3]
43INCLUDE=SETVER
44INCLUDE=DOSINIT

On AUTOEXEC.BAT:

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1@ECHO OFF
2PROMPT $p$g
3PATH C:\;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;C:\CTCM;C:\DOSPACK\ORPHINIT;C:\DOSPACK\THROTTLE
4
5goto %config%
6
7:WINDOWS
8goto end
9
10:DOS1
11:DOS2
12:DOS3
13REM Add sound initialization here
14IF "%config%"=="DOS3" goto NOHIMEM
15LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
16LH C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
17goto end
18
19:NOHIMEM
20C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
21C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
22goto end
23
24:end

While using PIF files with specialized CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT or "Restart in MS-DOS mode" is the proper way on Windows 9x, it's much less convenient for me due to having to restart many times. Also Phil's video when doing this with COMMAND.COM will get you less conventional memory (check with MEM /C /P command and you'll see two COMMAND) but not with other executables.

"Restart in MS-DOS mode" has DOSSTART.BAT located in C:\WINDOWS for the mouse driver and sound initialization but one cannot deal with content related to CONFIG.SYS for memory managers.

While most of the DOS programs works within Windows 9x without CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT like jakethompson1 said, there are some of them that doesn't and must be run in MS-DOS mode.

Just a note, but I had to include "DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\IFSHLP.SYS" under [WINDOWS] else I would get VFAT init errors; might be a YMMV thing, though.

TehGuy wrote on 2021-09-24, 01:31:

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-22, 12:17:

On a DOS configuration with a menu one can group multiple lines to avoid repetition. […]
Show full quote

On a DOS configuration with a menu one can group multiple lines to avoid repetition.

For example on CONFIG.SYS:

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1[MENU]
2menuitem=WINDOWS, Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition
3menuitem=DOS1, MS-DOS 7.10 - Expanded Memory
4menuitem=DOS2, MS-DOS 7.10 - Extended memory
5menuitem=DOS3, MS-DOS 7.10 - Conventional Memory
6menudefault=WINDOWS, 5
7
8[COMMON]
9DOS=NOAUTO
10FILES=45
11BUFFERS=30,0
12LASTDRIVE=E
13SET TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
14SET TMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
15
16[HIMEM]
17DOS=HIGH,UMB
18DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
19
20[SETVER]
21DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE
22
23[DOSINIT]
24DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001
25SHELL=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:512 /P
26
27[WINDOWS]
28INCLUDE=HIMEM
29INCLUDE=SETVER
30
31[DOS1]
32INCLUDE=HIMEM
33DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM D=64 MIN=0
34INCLUDE=SETVER
35INCLUDE=DOSINIT
36
37[DOS2]
38INCLUDE=HIMEM
39INCLUDE=SETVER
40INCLUDE=DOSINIT
41
42[DOS3]
43INCLUDE=SETVER
44INCLUDE=DOSINIT

On AUTOEXEC.BAT:

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1@ECHO OFF
2PROMPT $p$g
3PATH C:\;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;C:\CTCM;C:\DOSPACK\ORPHINIT;C:\DOSPACK\THROTTLE
4
5goto %config%
6
7:WINDOWS
8goto end
9
10:DOS1
11:DOS2
12:DOS3
13REM Add sound initialization here
14IF "%config%"=="DOS3" goto NOHIMEM
15LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
16LH C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
17goto end
18
19:NOHIMEM
20C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
21C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
22goto end
23
24:end

While using PIF files with specialized CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT or "Restart in MS-DOS mode" is the proper way on Windows 9x, it's much less convenient for me due to having to restart many times. Also Phil's video when doing this with COMMAND.COM will get you less conventional memory (check with MEM /C /P command and you'll see two COMMAND) but not with other executables.

"Restart in MS-DOS mode" has DOSSTART.BAT located in C:\WINDOWS for the mouse driver and sound initialization but one cannot deal with content related to CONFIG.SYS for memory managers.

While most of the DOS programs works within Windows 9x without CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT like jakethompson1 said, there are some of them that doesn't and must be run in MS-DOS mode.

Just a note, but I had to include "DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\IFSHLP.SYS" under [WINDOWS] else I would get VFAT init errors; might be a YMMV thing, though.

Indeed, since DOS=NOAUTO is set in [COMMON] adding IFSHLP.SYS is very important for Windows. DOS=AUTO (which is the default) always includes this along with DBLBUFF.SYS.

I have modified that post once again as a measure.

One last thing to note about custom PIF files, as shown in Phil's video. Clicking on such a PIF file will obviously restart your computer and load DOS 7.x. Less obviously, your computer will remain in DOS mode until you type "Exit" even if you shut it down using the power button or restart it using CTRL+ALT+DEL. Even pressing the reset button on the case won't end this mode, only typing the "Exit" command will.

This can be useful if you primarily want to play DOS games on your Win9x machine and don't need Windows to load at all. Of course, there are also other ways to boot straight into DOS on a Win9x system.

Preetty glad I asked about this in advance 😁

I took that DOS=NOAUTO from one of PhilsComputerLab templates I found, apparently without it coventional memory boot option still ended up with XMS memory. It didn't have IFSHLP.SYS or DBLBUFF.SYS anywhere in there, but Phil was using .PIFs in his guide so I guess those aren't needed in that case?

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-24, 06:27:

I took that DOS=NOAUTO from one of PhilsComputerLab templates I found, apparently without it coventional memory boot option still ended up with XMS memory. It didn't have IFSHLP.SYS or DBLBUFF.SYS anywhere in there, but Phil was using .PIFs in his guide so I guess those aren't needed in that case?

You could move DOS=NOAUTO into DOS3 for more safety, but it will load IFSHLP.SYS and DBLBUFF.SYS besides HIMEM.SYS and SETVER on the other menus automatically. Alternatively you can use DOS=HIGH,UMB,NOAUTO instead on configurations other than [WINDOWS]. I have edited the post for once again for convenience. Phil reason for adding this into [COMMON] was due to using MS-DOS Mode on a PIF file.

Joseph_Joestar is correct about everything in using COMMAND.COM as a custom PIF file, but as I said on a previous post you will get less conventional memory this way.

Thanks again 😀

This stuff seem like an art form and witchcraft at the same time, don't know should I marvel at the code or go find a crucifix.

Also, it might be worth using FILESHIGH, BUFFERSHIGH, LASTDRIVEHIGH over the non-high entries to free up a bit more conventional memory for anything including HIMEM. I think it takes me from ~600k to ~620k when booting with DOS1.

I moved the non-high versions from [COMMON] to [DOS3] since it's the only one that doesn't use HIMEM, but you could probably lower some of the values for FILES and BUFFERS to squeeze a bit more memory out under that environment if you need it.

TehGuy wrote on 2021-09-24, 14:39:

Also, it might be worth using FILESHIGH, BUFFERSHIGH, LASTDRIVEHIGH over the non-high entries to free up a bit more conventional memory for anything including HIMEM. I think it takes me from ~600k to ~620k when booting with DOS1.

I moved the non-high versions from [COMMON] to [DOS3] since it's the only one that doesn't use HIMEM, but you could probably lower some of the values for FILES and BUFFERS to squeeze a bit more memory out under that environment if you need it.

Alright, is this correct?

1[COMMON]
2SET TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
3SET TMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
4
5[HIMEMDOS]
6DOS=HIGH,UMB,NOAUTO
7DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
8FILESHIGH=45
9BUFFERSHIGH=30,0
10LASTDRIVEHIGH=E
11
12[DOS3]
13DOS=NOAUTO
14INCLUDE=SETVER
15INCLUDE=DOSINIT
16FILES=45
17BUFFERS=30,0
18LASTDRIVE=E

Haven't got a clue how much I could lower those values though, any idea?

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-24, 16:10:

Alright, is this correct? […]
Show full quote

TehGuy wrote on 2021-09-24, 14:39:

Also, it might be worth using FILESHIGH, BUFFERSHIGH, LASTDRIVEHIGH over the non-high entries to free up a bit more conventional memory for anything including HIMEM. I think it takes me from ~600k to ~620k when booting with DOS1.

I moved the non-high versions from [COMMON] to [DOS3] since it's the only one that doesn't use HIMEM, but you could probably lower some of the values for FILES and BUFFERS to squeeze a bit more memory out under that environment if you need it.

Alright, is this correct?

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1[COMMON]
2SET TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
3SET TMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
4
5[HIMEMDOS]
6DOS=HIGH,UMB,NOAUTO
7DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
8FILESHIGH=45
9BUFFERSHIGH=30,0
10LASTDRIVEHIGH=E
11
12[DOS3]
13DOS=NOAUTO
14INCLUDE=SETVER
15INCLUDE=DOSINIT
16FILES=45
17BUFFERS=30,0
18LASTDRIVE=E

Haven't got a clue how much I could lower those values though, any idea?

Yes, but for DOS1 there's still stuff that will be put on conventional memory due to lack of UMB (no issues adding FILESHIGH, etc on [HIMEMDOS] though). I also suggest adding adding STACKS=9,256 to [COMMON] in addition for better stability, not STACKSHIGH due to compatibility issues.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-24, 16:17:

Yes, but for DOS1 there's still stuff that will be put on conventional memory due to lack of UMB (no issues adding FILESHIGH, etc on [HIMEMDOS] though). I also suggest adding adding STACKS=9,256 to [COMMON] in addition for better stability, not STACKSHIGH due to compatibility issues.

Added!

But doesn't DOS1 include UMB through INCLUDE=HIMEMDOS?

1[HIMEMDOS]
2DOS=HIGH,UMB,NOAUTO

Or am I misunderstading something here?

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-24, 16:27:

Added! […]
Show full quote

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-24, 16:17:

Yes, but for DOS1 there's still stuff that will be put on conventional memory due to lack of UMB (no issues adding FILESHIGH, etc on [HIMEMDOS] though). I also suggest adding adding STACKS=9,256 to [COMMON] in addition for better stability, not STACKSHIGH due to compatibility issues.

Added!

But doesn't DOS1 include UMB through INCLUDE=HIMEMDOS?

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1[HIMEMDOS]
2DOS=HIGH,UMB,NOAUTO

Or am I misunderstading something here?

DOS=UMB does nothing unless you installed a real mode UMB driver such as UMBPCI as mentioned on a previous post or EMM386 is added after HIMEM.SYS, but the latter one forces the CPU into v86 mode which reduces compatibility with some DOS games.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-24, 16:31:

DOS=UMB does nothing unless you installed a real mode UMB driver such as UMBPCI as mentioned on a previous post or EMM386 is added after HIMEM.SYS, but the latter one forces the CPU into v86 mode which reduces compatibility with some DOS games.

Alrighty then.

I bet figuring this stuff out back in the 80's and 90's was easy and fun without internet 😁

Edit: Oh, and I also just noticed your example Config.sys currently has DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE and DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001 for DOS3 even though it doesn't load HIMEM.SYS.

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-24, 16:42:

Edit: Oh, and I also just noticed your example Config.sys currently has DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE and DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001 for DOS3 even though it doesn't load HIMEM.SYS.

Fixed I think? Current Config.sys:

1[MENU]
2menuitem=WINDOWS, Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition
3menuitem=DOS1, MS-DOS 7.10 - Expanded Memory
4menuitem=DOS2, MS-DOS 7.10 - Extended memory
5menuitem=DOS3, MS-DOS 7.10 - Conventional Memory
6menudefault=WINDOWS, 5
7
8[COMMON]
9STACKS=9,256
10SET TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
11SET TMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
12
13[HIMEMDOS]
14DOS=HIGH,UMB,NOAUTO
15DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
16FILESHIGH=45
17BUFFERSHIGH=30,0
18LASTDRIVEHIGH=E
19
20[SETVERHIGH]
21DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE
22
23[SETVER]
24DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE
25
26[DOSINITHIGH]
27DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001
28SHELL=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:512 /P
29
30[DOSINIT]
31DEVICE=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001
32SHELL=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:512 /P
33
34[WINDOWS]
35REM Since DOS=AUTO is the default everything essential will be loaded automatically
36
37[DOS1]
38INCLUDE=HIMEMDOS
39DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM D=64 MIN=0
40INCLUDE=SETVERHIGH
41INCLUDE=DOSINITHIGH
42
43[DOS2]
44INCLUDE=HIMEMDOS
45INCLUDE=SETVERHIGH
46INCLUDE=DOSINITHIGH
47
48[DOS3]
49DOS=NOAUTO
50FILES=45
51BUFFERS=30,0
52LASTDRIVE=E
53INCLUDE=SETVER
54INCLUDE=DOSINIT

The current modifications you did on CONFIG.SYS are good enough for now. 👍

might as well change STACKS= to STACKSHIGH=

I personally always set those to 0,0 and never had problems with it. but YMMV.

oh and

DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS /testmem:off

to speed up the boot process a little

weedeewee wrote on 2021-09-24, 21:04:

might as well change STACKS= to STACKSHIGH=

I personally always set those to 0,0 and never had problems with it. but YMMV.

Stay away from STACKSHIGH, I tried that times ago and it causes issues with Bio Menace. 😀

At least with STACKSHIGH=9,256 though.

oh and for old times sake

FCBS=1,0 or FCBSHIGH ? can't remember :-p

frees up a little more memory.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-24, 21:09:

weedeewee wrote on 2021-09-24, 21:04:

might as well change STACKS= to STACKSHIGH=

I personally always set those to 0,0 and never had problems with it. but YMMV.

Stay away from STACKSHIGH, I tried that times ago and it causes issues with Bio Menace. 😀

At least with STACKSHIGH=9,256 though.

Would it do the same with 9,128? From what I can find, it seems to be the 'default' for DOS <=6.22 (DOS 7+ seems to default it to 0,0)

EDIT:

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-24, 17:29:

Fixed I think? Current Config.sys: […]
Show full quote

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-24, 16:42:

Edit: Oh, and I also just noticed your example Config.sys currently has DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE and DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001 for DOS3 even though it doesn't load HIMEM.SYS.

Fixed I think? Current Config.sys:

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1[MENU]
2menuitem=WINDOWS, Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition
3menuitem=DOS1, MS-DOS 7.10 - Expanded Memory
4menuitem=DOS2, MS-DOS 7.10 - Extended memory
5menuitem=DOS3, MS-DOS 7.10 - Conventional Memory
6menudefault=WINDOWS, 5
7
8[COMMON]
9STACKS=9,256
10SET TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
11SET TMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
12
13[HIMEMDOS]
14DOS=HIGH,UMB,NOAUTO
15DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
16FILESHIGH=45
17BUFFERSHIGH=30,0
18LASTDRIVEHIGH=E
19
20[SETVERHIGH]
21DEVICEHIGH=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE
22
23[SETVER]
24DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE
25
26[DOSINITHIGH]
27DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001
28SHELL=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:512 /P
29
30[DOSINIT]
31DEVICE=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001
32SHELL=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:512 /P
33
34[WINDOWS]
35REM Since DOS=AUTO is the default everything essential will be loaded automatically
36
37[DOS1]
38INCLUDE=HIMEMDOS
39DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM D=64 MIN=0
40INCLUDE=SETVERHIGH
41INCLUDE=DOSINITHIGH
42
43[DOS2]
44INCLUDE=HIMEMDOS
45INCLUDE=SETVERHIGH
46INCLUDE=DOSINITHIGH
47
48[DOS3]
49DOS=NOAUTO
50FILES=45
51BUFFERS=30,0
52LASTDRIVE=E
53INCLUDE=SETVER
54INCLUDE=DOSINIT

So, and I just found this out, you should just be able to use DEVICEHIGH over DEVICE in DOSINIT since it will load into conventional memory should there not be enough UMB or it just doesn't exist. It isn't going to change things functionally if that's true, but it will reduce a bit of clutter :p

Per http://info.wsisiz.edu.pl/~bse26236/batutil/h … lp/DEVICEHS.HTM

If upper memory is not available, the DEVICEHIGH command
functions just like the DEVICE command.

TehGuy wrote on 2021-09-24, 22:00:

Would it do the same with 9,128? From what I can find, it seems to be the 'default' for DOS <=6.22 (DOS 7+ seems to default it to 0,0)

STACKS=9,128 works fine with that game, but not with STACKSHIGH=9,128. It froze/rebooted just right after killing the first enemy, no wonder why this game was discontinued early. DOS mode of Windows 9x defaults to STACKSHIGH=9,256, I checked that with mem /d/p to make sure. So one wouldn't notice this problem unless there is UMB.

Bio Menace even shows warning messages at startup about "Random lockups" and suggest adding STACKS=9,256 to CONFIG.SYS.

TehGuy wrote on 2021-09-24, 22:00:

So, and I just found this out, you should just be able to use DEVICEHIGH over DEVICE in DOSINIT since will load into conventional memory should there not be enough UMB or it just doesn't exist. It isn't going to change things functionally if that's true, but it will reduce a bit of clutter :p

Per http://info.wsisiz.edu.pl/~bse26236/batutil/h … lp/DEVICEHS.HTM

If upper memory is not available, the DEVICEHIGH command
functions just like the DEVICE command.

This is why exactly I showed CONFIG.SYS only with [DOSINIT] and [SETVER].