Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Discussion about old sound cards, MIDI devices and sound related accessories.

Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby CodeKiller » 2012-9-13 @ 17:48

Based on some info here (jumpers), datasheets of ICs, pc hardware book (joy port) and mainly based on some pictures of the card, I have further reversed it. The joystick port is fully traced, but the 6581 /CS, the 74ls245 /oe and the ISA bus 'i/o ch rdy' lines are still not known.

However the clock divider isn't what you expected: the first stage (74ls192) resets to 2 after counted 9 (upwards) - making it a 1/8 divider, and then it drives a 1/2 counter to make a 50% square wave. (effectively making it 1/16 divider)
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby Great Hierophant » 2012-9-13 @ 21:15

This would suggest that the pitch of this SID, compared to the NTSC C64 would be about 14% lower.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby Jolaes76 » 2012-9-23 @ 20:49

Let me add a little off topic. I bought "Card #2" from dBob. Actually he put it on auction on a local site. Then when I discovered this it was too late to negotiate for a price reduction as an outside bid came in. The Buy It Now price (lightning price in Hungarian) seemed fair enough for such an ultra rare collectors' item anyway so I hit that button...

DBob's P1 MMX computer (that you can see in his 2011 yotube video) is mine since January as well, so I might just "restore" that machine with the Innovation SSI 2001.

I want to try all the games ported from C64 to PC on it, as well as the handful of PC exclusive games with Inno SSI 2001 support. It would be awesome to have passthru support for the card in a C64 emulator, so I could put the card in a better rig and kick some butt in the C64 classics with authentic sound. Not going to happen, is it...?

BTW, congrats to all of You studying and reverse engineering the card, this will make it availabe for everyone, for free, in Dosbox. Simply awesome :happy:
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby Cloudschatze » 2012-9-23 @ 21:24

Jolaes76 wrote:I bought "Card #2" from dBob. Actually he put it on auction on a local site.


Having personally kept in contact with Penya for the past four years, hoping he'd let me know if/when he ever decided to sell the card (that must have become DBob's at some point), this news is just a bit disappointing. C'est la vie...

It would be awesome to have passthru support for the card in a C64 emulator, so I could put the card in a better rig and kick some butt in the C64 classics with authentic sound. Not going to happen, is it...?


I wouldn't say it's impossible. Similar pass-through support is available for the Catweasel and HardSID cards. Seems like the pitch discrepancy that Great Hierophant mentioned would need to be compensated for though.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby Great Hierophant » 2012-9-24 @ 00:09

Having listened to the recordings DBob made of Ultima VI and F-19 against their Commodore counterparts, the NTSC machine is much faster.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby nforce4max » 2012-9-24 @ 00:20

Well if there is anyone out there that has the money and the patents on this card are expired they could have it cloned but if there is any specialized code it is still under copyright. If not then if someone has a machine can print the board maybe a small batch can be made with empty sockets.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby Great Hierophant » 2012-9-24 @ 04:27

nforce4max wrote:Well if there is anyone out there that has the money and the patents on this card are expired they could have it cloned but if there is any specialized code it is still under copyright. If not then if someone has a machine can print the board maybe a small batch can be made with empty sockets.


The work done has gone 90% at least to being able to make a clone board possible.

A clone is quite possible based on the work done already. If you eliminated the gameport, that would help reduce the number of parts to be used and soldered.

An improvement on the design would be to have removable filter caps, so the device can be made closer to the original C64. Another improvement would be to have a jumper settable counter that could divide the OSC signal by 14 (NTSC C64), 15 (PAL C64) and 16 (true Innovation).
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby Yvan512 » 2012-11-07 @ 02:30

I'll try and get scans of my "original" SSI2001 programming manual (it was photocopies that I got in the mail). It might be a bit late but it could help with some specific questions, especially about the jumpers, addresses, etc.

P.S.: This is Yvan256, I just lost my password and can't even remember which email I've used to register my account the first time around.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby bristlehog » 2013-11-05 @ 04:13

I think I will continue this work since shock__ disappeared into oblivion.

Jolaes76, will you please make highest possible resolition photos of your card's front and back? I will be placing an order to a PCB factory and want to eliminate any doubts in card design. Or even scan the card with a scanner (with SID chip removed if possible).

If anyone wishes to buy a clone after (hopefully) it's finished, you better show up so that I order enough PCBs. Price will be high, I think on par with Adlib or even higher. But before the process is done, I can't exactly judge how much it money it will consume.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby Jolaes76 » 2013-11-05 @ 10:38

I have not posted this piece of info in this thread (but did in another): lacking the time for proper testing and realizing I AM a PC guy and not even a real collector after all, I sold the card to Cloudschatze (who waited quite a long time for this piece of his puzzle)
...so please ask him for the high res scans, if he did not already published them over at queststudios.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby shock__ » 2013-11-16 @ 09:36

I've not disappeared into oblivion - the subject just got a little too frustrating for me to put it simple.
Finding one such card for sale (for a low price) to have it end up catching dust only to get recycled later on is quite heartbreaking. As a final attempt I've e-mailed the original creator once again - after I didn't hear anything from him in over 2 years. I'll let you know if this gets anywhere.

About recreating the card - pretty much all info needed should be in this thread. There are my semi-complete PCB drawings and H-A-L-9000's "experimental" schematics alongside some additional info and the DOSBox sourcecode of course. Also there are at least 2 other fully working implementations of the 6581 on an ISA bus (HardSID ISA and another non commercial one).
Just keep in mind - the card is probably the second to last least supported soundcard for the PC (only surpassed by the PC Mockingboard) and Cloudschatze (who's the kind of underappreciated collector/historian) has sampled pretty much all software that supported this card over here: http://queststudios.com/smf/index.php?topic=3511.0.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby bristlehog » 2013-11-17 @ 19:23

Glad you're still here, shock__.

I've found a technician who agreed to draw card scheme, however, he got no clue of how traces go under all three 74LS74. We wait some info from Cloudschatze who might clarify this. I also wait photos of manual from yvan256 who is, though, currently on a vacation.

I am aware of the card being all but unsupported. However, I intend to have fun and gain some experience of building such things, rather than being serious about using it much afterwards.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby shock__ » 2013-11-18 @ 05:16

Have fun then :)

I've done something similar for a 68k based speeder card for amiga/atari systems with roughly 600 solder points (redrawn from empty PCBs), which was quite an error-prone process.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby Beegle » 2013-12-01 @ 02:33

bristlehog wrote:If anyone wishes to buy a clone after (hopefully) it's finished, you better show up so that I order enough PCBs. Price will be high, I think on par with Adlib or even higher. But before the process is done, I can't exactly judge how much it money it will consume.


I finally joined after years of lurking, to show interest in preserving/testing (at least a clone of) this card. I'd be interested in one.
Name your price when the time comes and I'm sure we'll agree on something.

Any news from yvan256 and the manual yet?
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby bristlehog » 2013-12-01 @ 04:16

No any news from yvan256 and his manual yet.

By the recommendation of specialist who is making card scheme, first a test exemplar will be done on an improvised PCB, so that there will be an opportunity to debug things before ordering factory PCBs. I have ordered myself two MOS6581R4 to use in the project. Currently we are waiting for Cloudschatze to clarify some information about 74LS74 and few other card elements to finish the scheme and start making of a test exemplar.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby bristlehog » 2013-12-06 @ 09:06

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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby shock__ » 2013-12-26 @ 10:32

http://home.arcor.de/skoe/sidcard_e.html and http://imageshack.us/a/img703/2918/h6yr.png

There you go, just adapt the clockrate (since this one uses it's own oscillator, rather than deriving it from the isa clock - HAL's scheme does that) and use a proper voltage for the 6581 and you're good to go.
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby shock__ » 2013-12-27 @ 17:34

So, I got bored, since my other project has entered prototyping and I'm waiting for the PCBs to arrive.

Image
Parts are all within a 25mil tolerance of their original placement.
Still a few gaps left, but using codekiller's drawings and hal's schemes + a few save assumptions this should be enough to derive a schematic based upon the original card.
Once that has been done I'll shrink down the card a little to narrow down the footprint so a finished board might be cheaper to produce.


Edit: Also HardSID-ISA: http://hardsid.8m.net/
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby shock__ » 2013-12-30 @ 16:58

Considering the interest beyond the scales, my other project taking most of my time and me not knowing when/if I can resume working on this, I'm uploading everything I have related to this card (mostly pictures and newsgroup posts), including the contact data of the original creator and someone who possesses one such card as well as my incomplete PCB layout (Eagle .brd, can be opened in KiCAD). Enjoy.

http://www.file-upload.net/download-846 ... 1.rar.html
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Re: Innovation SSI 2001 re-engineering and/or conclusions

Postby bristlehog » 2013-12-31 @ 15:21

Thank you, I hope we make use of your groundwork.
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