Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Discussion about old sound cards, MIDI devices and sound related accessories.

Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby syche » 2016-9-07 @ 11:50

sUPERtOTO009, Roland User, James-F, Falcosoft

Thanks for your replies, guys! Much appreciated.

James-F wrote:
syche wrote:Could someone confirm that in the attached midi (theme.mid) file between 1:41 and 1:56 Tubular bells (channels 14 and 15) are almost inaudible (in any mode, btw), even though it shows them as playing at a high level?

Well that's simple.
All SC instruments have a range, the velocity of these tubular bells is around 50 (out of 127) and the pitch is very high, it's simply out of the sound canvas range.
You will not hear it on any sound canvas including the hardware because the song was not composed on a sound canvas.

Have fun.


Yeah, that's what I thought initially. (I noticed that tubular bells on channel 4 sound just fine in other parts of the song, where their velocity is lower) However, I found several recordings of the soundtrack which were made on the real SC-55 hardware, where tubular bells at this moment were more pronounced. One example is here (skip to 1:43):
http://www.ultima.rabbitslair.de/ultima8_roland/03%20-%20Pagan%20Theme.ogg

Also I think that the music for Ultima 8 was, indeed, composed on Roland hardware. The reason I think that is because in 1994 not long after developing U8, Origin published a music CD called "Origin Audi CD vol.3" with Ultima 8 medley on it, which sounds very very "Rolandy". Here:
http://www.ultima.rabbitslair.de/origin ... Medley.ogg
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby James-F » 2016-9-07 @ 12:51

Alright I've recorded the ENDGAME.MID using my SC-55 MKII.
The tubular bells are there (1:49).
They sound exactly the same in SC-VA with SC-55 mode but slightly quieter.
Attachments
SC-VA SC55 quiet Tubular Bells.mp3
(193.13 KiB) Downloaded 40 times
Endgame SC-55 MKII.mp3
(4.71 MiB) Downloaded 42 times
Last edited by James-F on 2016-9-07 @ 13:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby syche » 2016-9-07 @ 13:09

James-F wrote:Alright I've recorded the ENDGAME.MID using my SC-55 MKII.
The tubular bells are there (1:49).


Thank you very much! Interesting. Looks like the algorithm in SC-VA is a bit different than in SC-55 hardware and it messes up some instruments under some circumstances.
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby James-F » 2016-9-07 @ 13:16

I added the SC-VA version but only the part where the bells are, they are there but quieter.

Yes the SC-VA is not perfect in SC-55 mode, but so is the SC-88 (and up) in SC-55 mode.
A lot of instrument don't sound the same with newer hardware models in SC-55 mode, even the manuals state so.

If you want the SC-55 sound, you get the SC-55 hardware.
But anything from SC-88 and up, the SC-VA does I'd say 99.9% accurately.
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby syche » 2016-9-07 @ 13:45

James-F wrote:I added the SC-VA version but only the part where the bells are, they are there but quieter.


Yes, quite a bit quieter actually, as if almost not there at all. I had to crank up the volume "to 11" to hear them.

James-F wrote:If you want the SC-55 sound, you get the SC-55 hardware.


Nah, I think SC-VA emulates SC-55 sound good enough. For me, at least. I can cope with it messing up a bit here and there. :-)
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby James-F » 2016-9-07 @ 14:13

Here is a comparison of the hardware SC-55 and SC-VA in SC-55 Map.

Doom
From 00:09 you can hear a muted Crash Cymbal on the hardware SC-55 (as the composer intended), but on SC-VA it is not muted but freely ringing and has a different sound.
From 00:42 there is a Ride Cymbal which sounds completely different on SC-VA, and the same un-muted crash afterwards.

Duke3D
Immediately 00:00 you can hear the different Ride Cymbal sound like on the doom track on 00:42.
A completely different Kick Drum sound.

These different sounds appeared on the SC-88 and replaced the SC-55 sounds even in SC-55 Map on the real hardware.
You can actually acknowledge this fact by going to this wonderful site and listening by yourself:
http://www.wavetable.nl/?cat=4

Doom - E1M1 [Roland SC-8820_55MAP].mp3, You can hear that the SC-8820 mutes the Crash Cymbal but SC-VA don't (they didn't emulate the control rom properly),
also the Ride Cymbal at 00:44 is not like on the real SC-55 hardware which proves Roland completely replaced some sounds in SC-88 and up.
Doom - E1M1 [Roland SC-8820_88MAP].mp3, The Crash Cymbal doesn't mute because it is not on SC-55 Map, and obviously different ride cymbal sound.
Duke Nukem 3D - Intro [Roland SC-8820_55MAP].mp3, Same as the SC-VA, the drum sounds are different.

This is a small example but there are more sounds that differ on the later models in SC-55 Map from a real SC-55.
This should make obvious that not even the later hardware models can sound like the SC-55.
So to conclude once again, if you want an authentic SC-55 experience which a lot of DOS games are composed on, find a good SC-55 on Ebay, buy it and keep it.
But anything from SC-88 and up, I believe is perfectly emulated on SC-VA since the developers based it on the 8820 which has the same control rom as the 88 and 88Pro.
Attachments
Doom SC-55.mp3
(2.29 MiB) Downloaded 71 times
Doom SC-VA (SC-55).mp3
(2.24 MiB) Downloaded 58 times
Duke3D SC-55.mp3
(1.58 MiB) Downloaded 46 times
Duke3D SC-VA (SC-55).mp3
(1.46 MiB) Downloaded 41 times
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby Roland User » 2016-9-07 @ 21:27

James-F
I have two questions )))
1) why Roland created SC-VA with SC-8820 map instead SC-8850 ?
2) what prevented Roland create SC-VA so to fully fit SC-55 , SC-88 , SC-88 Pro , SC-8820 maps as in each hardware version ?
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby kode54 » 2016-9-07 @ 21:32

Possibly because that would involve writing four emulators instead of just one? In this case, they emulate a synthesizer that has compatibility modes. If they wanted to be truly faithful to each of the older synthesizers, they would need to emulate each piece of hardware completely, as well as bundle the full sample ROM data for each one.
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby Silanda » 2016-9-07 @ 23:06

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that the SC-8820 was the last model in the proper Sound Canvas line, so perhaps was Roland's preferred device to emulate. Besides that, the VSTi wasn't really designed for retro gaming purposes, and there aren't that many people who are going to be in the market for a perfect recreation of the SC-55 (not to mention that there would need to be SC-55 pre-GM, SC-55 post-GM, and SC-55 Mk II modes for true accuracy).
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby Roland User » 2016-9-08 @ 15:07

Silanda wrote:Also, it's worth bearing in mind that the SC-8820 was the last model in the proper Sound Canvas line, so perhaps was Roland's preferred device to emulate. Besides that, the VSTi wasn't really designed for retro gaming purposes, and there aren't that many people who are going to be in the market for a perfect recreation of the SC-55 (not to mention that there would need to be SC-55 pre-GM, SC-55 post-GM, and SC-55 Mk II modes for true accuracy).


Whats ? SC-8820 it was latest and end step in Sound Canvas ? And how SC-8850 ? This it was top Sound Canvas sound modules )
Or you think whats this not Sound Canvas module ?
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby Silanda » 2016-9-08 @ 17:58

Roland User wrote:
Silanda wrote:Also, it's worth bearing in mind that the SC-8820 was the last model in the proper Sound Canvas line, so perhaps was Roland's preferred device to emulate. Besides that, the VSTi wasn't really designed for retro gaming purposes, and there aren't that many people who are going to be in the market for a perfect recreation of the SC-55 (not to mention that there would need to be SC-55 pre-GM, SC-55 post-GM, and SC-55 Mk II modes for true accuracy).


Whats ? SC-8820 it was latest and end step in Sound Canvas ? And how SC-8850 ? This it was top Sound Canvas sound modules )
Or you think whats this not Sound Canvas module ?


IIRC the 8820 was released after the 8850, making it the last true Sound Canvas. There was also a keyboard and another module released later, but they too were both based on the 8820, not the 8850.

The SD-50/90 Studio Canvas modules came much later, but IIRC they were pretty much their own thing with GS support for only the SC-55 level tones.
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby Roland User » 2016-9-08 @ 19:25

What for create simplified variand ton generator if have top ton generator SC-8850 ?
I understand what SC-8850 and SC-8820 different only ROM sound bankset and all.
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby Roland User » 2016-9-21 @ 13:09

About quiet sounds in SC-VA , heve this melody.
SC-VA played 0:50 verry silend , S-YXG50 playing this segment clearly
Attachments
axelf2.zip
(5.57 KiB) Downloaded 32 times
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby Falcosoft » 2016-10-16 @ 00:30

If someone is interested I have added VSTi support to FSMP. This means that FSMP itself can host e.g. SC-VA so no other VST host is required.
https://youtu.be/mzZhhLXG0kk

Download:
http://falcosoft.hu/softwares.html#midiplayer
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby Kamerat » 2016-10-16 @ 06:41

Thanks Falcosoft! Working fine with the Yamaha S-YXG50 VSTi in Windows 98SE. If you integrate Munt, then we don't need any other software for a MIDI box. :happy:
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby KainXVIII » 2016-10-16 @ 10:54

I don't get it, how to to use new FSMP to play dosbox with roland sc (it does not show up in mixer /listmidi command) or windows games?
PS - i already uninstalled savihost and loopmidi which work fine by me :confused:
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby James-F » 2016-10-16 @ 10:59

Settings -> Midi In -> Activate.
Input Port: windows default or what dosbox will send midi data to.

You can also use Capital Tone Fallback with the SC-55 map for games that rely on CTF like on the first revision of the SC-55.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrKfDTjvKDs
Select Roland_SCVA.ins and SCVA-55 in both sections under it.
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Re: Heads Up: Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin!

Postby KainXVIII » 2016-10-16 @ 11:28

James-F wrote:Settings -> Midi In -> Activate.
Input Port: windows default or what dosbox will send midi data to.

You can also use Capital Tone Fallback with the SC-55 map for games that rely on CTF like on the first revision of the SC-55.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrKfDTjvKDs
Select Roland_SCVA.ins and SCVA-55 in both sections under it.

I can't activate midi in, its grayed out
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