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AZ2316 v. ES1868F

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First post, by viper32cm

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As referenced in some other posts, I'm building a P100 system with Dos 6.22 and Win 3.11. I have all the parts except the sound card.

I'm leaning heavily towards a card based on the AZ2316 chipset since that's what my childhood P100 system had. It has a Yamaha OPL chip, and I've read good reviews of the card.

However, I've also give some consideration to an ES1868F. I know it's not a Yamaha chip, but what I've heard of it sounds good and it can be a little less expensive.

Are there any particular advantages or disadvantages between these too? Is there something else I should consider?

Reply 1 of 27, by darry

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ESFM (ESS FM implementation) has its fans but sounds different from a Yamaha OPL3 (or clone) . I do not know where you are located, so shipping costs may vary, but an ES1868F base card is about 18 Canadian dollars whereas an Aztech one base on the AZ2316 is about 45 Canadian dollars, with shipping .

Another option is an Aztec AZT2320 based card . The integrated FM reputedly is quite similar to the Yamaha OPL3 (I have not compared myself) .

I understand that cost may be an issue, but personally would get whatever satisfies your nostalgia, considering the price difference is fairly small .

Reply 2 of 27, by gdjacobs

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IIRC, the AZT2320 used a licensed OPL3 core. I was never too enthused with having to stick with Intel ICA to allocate PnP resources, but better tools have just recently come available, so it's less of an issue.

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Reply 3 of 27, by Oetker

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Seeing if the 2320 is cheaper is a good idea. In any case it's anecdotal but on my PC, which is a P3 (so significantly faster) I had more issues with the 2316 acting weird than with an ESS1869, and the ESS also behaved better in Windows (2316 sometimes muffles the end of sounds). The 2320 is the best of both worlds for me.

Reply 4 of 27, by GigAHerZ

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I just got myself a AZ2320, and while i haven't yet tested this myself, short research shows that in general, it's pretty perfect card in compatibility, but some complain that it's FM sounds are "too pure" and not filtered and wavetable header is also missing. Some say it has quite high noise level as well.

But functionally, based on that short research it seems to be pretty perfect card in terms of functionality.

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Reply 5 of 27, by ShovelKnight

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In my experience, ES1868/1869 are not speed sensitive at all, whereas AZ2316 is (FM doesn’t work properly on faster machines). It shouldn’t matter for a P100 machine, but something to keep in mind.

Reply 6 of 27, by dionb

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Not sure exactly where speed sensitivity kicks in, but was able to use an AZT2316A with no issues on a P200MMX, so on a P100 it's fine.

Quick rundown:

AZT2316A
- FM: OPL3 (real or 1:1 clone)
- SBPro2 compatible DA
- WSS compatible for 16b audio
- bug-free MIDI
- low self-noise
- non-PnP, oneshot config tool to set settings in EEPROM

ESS1868F
- FM: ESFM - not bad, but not OPL3
- SBPro2 compatible DA
- WSS compatible for 16b audio
- bug-free MIDI on chip, but some cards mess up implementations (non-functioning wavetable header 🙁 )
- low self-noise
- PnP card

Personally I'd choose an ESS1868F over a CQM-equipped MIDI-bugging PnP SB16, and even with OPL3 non-PnP SB16 it depends on what I wanted to do with it. But I really, really like AZT2316 cards and would go for one of those above all. Thing is also that all AZT2316 cards I've seen are made by Aztech themselves and are of good quality, whereas ESS1868F cards are a mixed bag. A good one can be really good, but there's some crap out there too...

Reply 7 of 27, by viper32cm

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I think the AZ2316 is the way to go. I'm not worried about speed sensitivity with a P100. While not the paragon of reliability or quality, Packard Bell shipped thousands of systems in the mid-90s with AZ2316-based sound cards , either as dedicated cards or as part of the a modem/sound card combo card, including the Legend 130CD Supreme I had as a kid.

Reply 8 of 27, by Grzyb

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dionb wrote on 2020-04-24, 10:46:

ESS1868F
[...]
- WSS compatible for 16b audio

Not.
16-bit audio on ESS Audiodrive chips isn't compatible with WSS, ie. AD1848

It isn't compatible with SB16, either.
Probably irrelevant for games, but in the era, it was a noticable drawback in MOD/S3M/XM/... players, as it limited them to 8-bit SB Pro.

Żywotwór planetarny, jego gnijące błoto, jest świtem egzystencji, fazą wstępną, i wyłoni się z krwawych ciastomózgowych miedź miłująca...

Reply 9 of 27, by dionb

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Grzyb wrote on 2020-04-24, 23:26:
dionb wrote on 2020-04-24, 10:46:

ESS1868F
[...]
- WSS compatible for 16b audio

Not.
16-bit audio on ESS Audiodrive chips isn't compatible with WSS, ie. AD1848

The datasheet disagrees:
http://www.electroscheme.ru/datasheet/ESS-tech/PB1868C.PDF

Compatibility:

[...]

Supports Microsoft® Windows™ Sound System®

It isn't compatible with SB16, either.

No, it isn't. Don't think anyone claimed that.

Probably irrelevant for games, but in the era, it was a noticable drawback in MOD/S3M/XM/... players, as it limited them to 8-bit SB Pro.

If the game truly supports 16b audio you really notice the difference - whether WSS or SB16 (or indeed PAS16), but that's pretty rare indeed.

Reply 10 of 27, by Grzyb

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dionb wrote on 2020-04-25, 00:28:

The datasheet disagrees:
http://www.electroscheme.ru/datasheet/ESS-tech/PB1868C.PDF

Compatibility:

[...]

Supports Microsoft® Windows™ Sound System®

Yes, I've seen it many times, and the most likely explanation is that it means that Windows drivers are provided.
Many have tried running software configured for WSS on ESS cards, and all failed.
Note that the datasheet also specifies: "Programmable sample rates from 4 kHz to 44.1 kHz for record and playback", while one of the key features of AD1848 is support for up to 48 kHz.

Żywotwór planetarny, jego gnijące błoto, jest świtem egzystencji, fazą wstępną, i wyłoni się z krwawych ciastomózgowych miedź miłująca...

Reply 11 of 27, by viper32cm

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Maybe a change of plans. I have a P233MMX Win95 system with an Audician 32 Plus. What if I moved that card to my P100 and then put a CT4380 in the P233MMX? The Audician 32 is great for the 1995 and before time frame I'm shooting for with the P100, and the CT4380 seems like it would be a good upgrade for P233

Reply 12 of 27, by darry

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viper32cm wrote on 2020-04-26, 02:36:

Maybe a change of plans. I have a P233MMX Win95 system with an Audician 32 Plus. What if I moved that card to my P100 and then put a CT4380 in the P233MMX? The Audician 32 is great for the 1995 and before time frame I'm shooting for with the P100, and the CT4380 seems like it would be a good upgrade for P233

Sounds like a plan .

Reply 13 of 27, by appiah4

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A Yamaha YMF71x is the best of both worlds and I use one in my 486 build though my pentiums use ES1688/1868 Cards because I rely less on OPL3 and more on GM on those and the ESS cards are easier to set up IME (and I think ESFM is just fine, better than CQM and ALS and on par with CMI.. Crystal is just too different to rank but I love that even more than original OPL3 for games - for chiptune music not as much..)

As for Aztech ISA cards I have no experience but I want to try them particularly after what a nice surprise CMI8330 has been for me.

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Reply 14 of 27, by gex85

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gdjacobs wrote on 2020-04-24, 05:13:

IIRC, the AZT2320 used a licensed OPL3 core. I was never too enthused with having to stick with Intel ICA to allocate PnP resources, but better tools have just recently come available, so it's less of an issue.

I recently tried to get an AZT2320 (MM PRO16III PNP) working in a very similar build (P100, DOS 6.20, WfW 3.11) but ultimately gave up and used a SB16. I fiddled around with ICA quite a bit but without success. So I am curious what tools you are referring to?

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Reply 16 of 27, by Oetker

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gex85 wrote on 2020-04-27, 08:56:
gdjacobs wrote on 2020-04-24, 05:13:

IIRC, the AZT2320 used a licensed OPL3 core. I was never too enthused with having to stick with Intel ICA to allocate PnP resources, but better tools have just recently come available, so it's less of an issue.

I recently tried to get an AZT2320 (MM PRO16III PNP) working in a very similar build (P100, DOS 6.20, WfW 3.11) but ultimately gave up and used a SB16. I fiddled around with ICA quite a bit but without success. So I am curious what tools you are referring to?

UniSound

derSammler wrote on 2020-04-27, 09:00:

Why would you need PnP tools for a P100 system anyway? I've never seen any Pentium mainboard not having a PnP-capable BIOS.

My P3 BIOS has zero settings related to setting/reserving ISA pnp resources. A card will work but you don't get to choose its resources.

Reply 17 of 27, by derSammler

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You don't reserve ISA resources, because these are then NOT used for PnP at all. That function is for non-PnP cards only, which the PnP BIOS can of course not detect, but still need to know that they are there.

The default PnP profile 0 of the AZT2320 card (be it the MM PRO16III PNP or some other) should use exactly the most common resources with no need to change them.

Reply 18 of 27, by gdjacobs

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Oetker wrote on 2020-04-27, 09:13:
gex85 wrote on 2020-04-27, 08:56:

I recently tried to get an AZT2320 (MM PRO16III PNP) working in a very similar build (P100, DOS 6.20, WfW 3.11) but ultimately gave up and used a SB16. I fiddled around with ICA quite a bit but without success. So I am curious what tools you are referring to?

UniSound

Precisely.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 19 of 27, by TechieDude

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If I can recommend something outside these two, I've also had good luck with Avance Logic ALS100 (NOT +, just regular ALS100!). Very compatible and it has a 1:1 copy of OPL3. It also has drivers for Windows 3.1 which are very easy to install. You just run setup.exe from within Windows and it installs the drivers for both Win3.1 and DOS.
It is also PnP.