VOGONS


First post, by bionicle_159

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I’ve just managed to get my 98SE build up and running, works great for Windows as you’d expect - but with DOS, try as I might to tweak settings and follow other’s posts on Vogons, I still can’t get any music. LGR makes this look way easier than it is!
The SET BLASTER is set up and I’ve tried disabling and enabling stuff in device manager, changing Address, IRQ and DMA settings, tried making new MIDI output schemes in the A3D properties. I’ve been spoiled by NT by never having to go near this stuff 🤣

Any advice is appreciated, my build is listed at the bottom of my post, it’s not the end of the world if I can’t get it to work, but it’s a more genuine experience for me to play DOS games on real hardware and not via source ports or DOSBox via Lutris.

Edit: I believe my card is an MX-300

Last edited by bionicle_159 on 2020-06-22, 22:55. Edited 1 time in total.

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98SE Rig - AthlonXP 1700, 512MB 166Mhz, NForce A7N8X-X, V3 2000 PCI, Aureal Vortex 2 SQ2500

Reply 1 of 28, by bionicle_159

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looked up old posts and still can't get it to work.
I have an MX300 and am using an Nforce Athlon board.

Edit: posts merged

Last edited by bionicle_159 on 2020-06-22, 22:55. Edited 1 time in total.

Work Rig - Ryzen 2700X, 16GB 3200Mhz, MSI B450 LN91340, HD 7970 Ghz (I know...), SB 1500
XP Rig - C2Q Q6600, 4GB 800Mhz, GA-P31-DS3L , GTX 750Ti, SB 0820
98SE Rig - AthlonXP 1700, 512MB 166Mhz, NForce A7N8X-X, V3 2000 PCI, Aureal Vortex 2 SQ2500

Reply 2 of 28, by collector

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Wrong forum. This forum is for DOS games on modern systems. Ask old hardware and driver/configuration questions in Marvin. Marvin, the Paranoid Android

The Sierra Help Pages -- New Sierra Game Installers -- Sierra Game Patches -- New Non-Sierra Game Installers

Reply 3 of 28, by bionicle_159

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collector wrote on 2020-06-22, 13:31:

Wrong forum. This forum is for DOS games on modern systems. Ask old hardware and driver/configuration questions in Marvin. Marvin, the Paranoid Android

Already tried asking under the Marvin section a week ago with no replies.

Not trying to be a nuisance, just need people with more knowledge in this area to get my problem fixed, the main DOS section gets a lot more traffic so this was my next option for getting help with DOS setup on 98SE

Last edited by Stiletto on 2020-06-22, 21:46. Edited 1 time in total.

Work Rig - Ryzen 2700X, 16GB 3200Mhz, MSI B450 LN91340, HD 7970 Ghz (I know...), SB 1500
XP Rig - C2Q Q6600, 4GB 800Mhz, GA-P31-DS3L , GTX 750Ti, SB 0820
98SE Rig - AthlonXP 1700, 512MB 166Mhz, NForce A7N8X-X, V3 2000 PCI, Aureal Vortex 2 SQ2500

Reply 4 of 28, by Stiletto

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Not a big fan of cross-posting for more views - also, I'd argue that Marvin is getting far more views than other sections of the forums these days.

Merged with previous thread.

"I see a little silhouette-o of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you
do the Fandango!" - Queen

Stiletto

Reply 5 of 28, by bionicle_159

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Stiletto wrote on 2020-06-22, 21:46:

Not a big fan of cross-posting for more views - also, I'd argue that Marvin is getting far more views than other sections of the forums these days.

Merged with previous thread.

Again, not trying to give mods a hard time, just didn’t have any options less annoying than this. I doubt anyone’s gonna see this old post now it’s been buried a week later from newer ones.

Edit: I stand corrected, didn’t know merging made threads be reposted

Work Rig - Ryzen 2700X, 16GB 3200Mhz, MSI B450 LN91340, HD 7970 Ghz (I know...), SB 1500
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98SE Rig - AthlonXP 1700, 512MB 166Mhz, NForce A7N8X-X, V3 2000 PCI, Aureal Vortex 2 SQ2500

Reply 6 of 28, by darry

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My memory could be playing tricks on me, but I am pretty sure that the wavetable synth integrated into Aureal chips only works under Windows . Under DOS, you get Sound Blaster Pro compatibility and, again if memory serves, access to the waveblaster daughterboard (if installed) or an external MIDI module (if connected) through an MPU-401 compatible interface .

Reply 7 of 28, by bionicle_159

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darry wrote on 2020-06-22, 23:54:

My memory could be playing tricks on me, but I am pretty sure that the wavetable synth integrated into Aureal chips only works under Windows . Under DOS, you get Sound Blaster Pro compatibility and, again if memory serves, access to the waveblaster daughterboard (if installed) or an external MIDI module (if connected) through an MPU-401 compatible interface .

Thanks for the input,
I thought that too from what I've read online but LGR somehow managed to get retail Duke Nukem 3D, of all games, to have FX and music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5_JFrEHmTk

It works fine with source ports like zdoom98, but for some reason following his steps with the Aureal control panel doesn't work. I thought perhaps his AWE64 and it's TSR helped out but I've got no clue.

Work Rig - Ryzen 2700X, 16GB 3200Mhz, MSI B450 LN91340, HD 7970 Ghz (I know...), SB 1500
XP Rig - C2Q Q6600, 4GB 800Mhz, GA-P31-DS3L , GTX 750Ti, SB 0820
98SE Rig - AthlonXP 1700, 512MB 166Mhz, NForce A7N8X-X, V3 2000 PCI, Aureal Vortex 2 SQ2500

Reply 8 of 28, by darry

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bionicle_159 wrote on 2020-06-23, 00:39:
Thanks for the input, I thought that too from what I've read online but LGR somehow managed to get retail Duke Nukem 3D, of all […]
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darry wrote on 2020-06-22, 23:54:

My memory could be playing tricks on me, but I am pretty sure that the wavetable synth integrated into Aureal chips only works under Windows . Under DOS, you get Sound Blaster Pro compatibility and, again if memory serves, access to the waveblaster daughterboard (if installed) or an external MIDI module (if connected) through an MPU-401 compatible interface .

Thanks for the input,
I thought that too from what I've read online but LGR somehow managed to get retail Duke Nukem 3D, of all games, to have FX and music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5_JFrEHmTk

It works fine with source ports like zdoom98, but for some reason following his steps with the Aureal control panel doesn't work. I thought perhaps his AWE64 and it's TSR helped out but I've got no clue.

With Sound Blaster Pro support under pure DOS, you can get emulated FM music in Duke Nukem 3D and other games, if you choose Adlib/Sound Blaster/Sound Blaster Pro in the game's setup . You will not, however, be able to use the Aureal wavetable synth under pure DOS . The Aureal wavetable synth should work for DOS programs if you run them under Windows 9x , if you set "DOS Box MIDI Out" to "Vortex AU8830 wavetable" in the Aureal Control Panel (you also need to set the game to the right port address for General MIDI through an MPU-401 compatible interface, this is usually port 330h or 300h) .

AFAIK, Zdoom98 is a Windows application and, like pretty much all Windows applications, it will send MIDI data to the device selected in the Windows MIDI mapper . This is the case unless you configure a Windows application to use a specific MIDI device, regardless of MIDI mapper settings (some applications allow that) .

EDIT : The AWE64 or AWE32 TSR does absolutely nothing when running Windows . Under pure DOS, the AWE64 or AWE32 TSR can allow DOS programs that support General MIDI over a MPU-401 interface to use the AWE64 or AWE32 wavetable synthesizer . It will do nothing if you do not have an AWE64 or AWE32 .

Reply 9 of 28, by foil_fresh

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hey so I wrestled with a similar issue a year back, using an nforce2 board along with the same aureal card (mx300). i had to install the windows driver only pack that excludes DOS drivers. got that pack from phils' site.

the nforce2 chipset simply cannot route the dma/irq info correctly needed for DOS audio (something about non-maskable interrupts). this prevents any SB emulation at all. now FM and MIDI in DOS might be a different story but i imagine you'd need an even more modified driver that doesn't touch the sound effects stuff and leaves FM/Midi alone to initialise.

I got the same problems when testing out an SB Live as confirmation. had to disable legacy audio driver in safe mode in order for windows to start. maybe there's another type of sound card that uses a different emulation method which could help you out?

my advice: another retro pc with ISA slots 😜 440BX slot 1 / VIA socket 370 / socket 7 mvp3

Reply 10 of 28, by darry

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Just to be clear, LGR is clearly running Duke Nukem 3D in a dos box under Windows, not in pure DOS. That is not some special feat as the card is designed to work that way (wavetable for DOs programs running under Windows). I am certain at this point that the Aureal wavetable will not work under pure DOS , it even says so in one of the driver READMEs (http://ftp.usal.es/software/windows/drivers/T … full/readme.txt) . The "DOS box" reference is to a DOS box/window under Windows, not the DOSBOX application .

D. REAL-MODE DOS
================

DOS runs in real mode when Windows 95 is not loaded, or when you
restart the computer in MSDOS mode from Windows 95. In real mode,
make sure the game is configured correctly. Select Sound Blaster
or Sound Blaster Pro for both the Music and the Effects device
(unlike in DOS box where you can select MIDI for Music)
. You can
select MPU-401 output if you have an external synthesizer connected
to the Vortex MIDI port. Make sure the settings for I/O, IRQ, and
DMA match the configuration for the Vortex card.

The Nforce2 chipset may present additional challenges (especially when running under pure DOS, a.k.a. real mode) as mentioned by foil_fresh whose recommendation of building a PC with ISA slots (and corresponding sound card) is a good one for an optimal DOS experience, IMHO as well.

Having said all that, if you want to try a bit more with the AU8830, I suggest you first concentrate on running DOS applications under Windows :

If you run Duke Nukem 3D under Windows and choose Adlib for music and nothing for sound effects, do you get music?

If you set "DOS Box MIDI Out" to "Vortex AU8830 wavetable" in the Aureal Control Panel and then run Duke Nukem 3D under Windows while choosing General MIDI (port 330h) for music and nothing for sound effects, do you get music?

If you set "DOS Box MIDI Out" to "Vortex AU8830 wavetable" in the Aureal Control Panel and then you run Duke Nukem 3D under Windows while choosing General MIDI (port 300h) for music and nothing for sound effects, do you get music?

Reply 11 of 28, by bionicle_159

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I've had the most luck running the DOS games under Windows, but it still can't figure out how to talk to the Wavetable hardware even though it is occupying that address port.
If I try and set up each option just for Music I get errors saying it can't detect an FM chip or for the GM option it says it can't detect an MPU 401. I've got soundblaster sound effects but if I force it to start up with the GM music address set to the right port, it makes the game run at a quarter speed with no music.

Work Rig - Ryzen 2700X, 16GB 3200Mhz, MSI B450 LN91340, HD 7970 Ghz (I know...), SB 1500
XP Rig - C2Q Q6600, 4GB 800Mhz, GA-P31-DS3L , GTX 750Ti, SB 0820
98SE Rig - AthlonXP 1700, 512MB 166Mhz, NForce A7N8X-X, V3 2000 PCI, Aureal Vortex 2 SQ2500

Reply 13 of 28, by bionicle_159

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appiah4 wrote on 2020-06-23, 10:17:

You are using an nForce board. Good luck with that.

It gives me IRQ and DMA options in the bios, only obstacle that I can see is knowing what settings to change

Work Rig - Ryzen 2700X, 16GB 3200Mhz, MSI B450 LN91340, HD 7970 Ghz (I know...), SB 1500
XP Rig - C2Q Q6600, 4GB 800Mhz, GA-P31-DS3L , GTX 750Ti, SB 0820
98SE Rig - AthlonXP 1700, 512MB 166Mhz, NForce A7N8X-X, V3 2000 PCI, Aureal Vortex 2 SQ2500

Reply 14 of 28, by darry

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bionicle_159 wrote on 2020-06-23, 12:51:
appiah4 wrote on 2020-06-23, 10:17:

You are using an nForce board. Good luck with that.

It gives me IRQ and DMA options in the bios, only obstacle that I can see is knowing what settings to change

It's not just that . There is a reason I asked you to run specific aforementioned tests. The fact that, under Windows, DOS software that would normally just use port 388h (Adlib) or port 330h/300h (General MIDI over MPU-401) is a bad sign . Playing with IRQs and DMA options will not fix those, as they do not use any .

You may have better luck with other (newer or older) driver versions, but as others have mentioned, the Nforce2 is probably at the heart of the issue with essentially all audio chips with DOS support, not just the AU8830. AFAIK, there is no known workaround . Personally, I think it's time to give up on Nforce2 and DOS audio support.

See posts in these threads also.
NForce2 and DOS Sound question
Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Last edited by Stiletto on 2020-06-24, 03:53. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 15 of 28, by bionicle_159

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darry wrote on 2020-06-23, 13:30:
It's not just that . There is a reason I asked you to run specific aforementioned tests. The fact that, under Windows, DOS softw […]
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bionicle_159 wrote on 2020-06-23, 12:51:
appiah4 wrote on 2020-06-23, 10:17:

You are using an nForce board. Good luck with that.

It gives me IRQ and DMA options in the bios, only obstacle that I can see is knowing what settings to change

It's not just that . There is a reason I asked you to run specific aforementioned tests. The fact that, under Windows, DOS software that would normally just use port 388h (Adlib) or port 330h/300h (General MIDI over MPU-401) is a bad sign . Playing with IRQs and DMA options will not fix those, as they do not use any .

You may have better luck with other (newer or older) driver versions, but as others have mentioned, the Nforce2 is probably at the heart of the issue with essentially all audio chips with DOS support, not just the AU8830. AFAIK, there is no known workaround . Personally, I think it's time to give up on Nforce2 and DOS audio support.

See posts in these threads also.
NForce2 and DOS Sound question
hqttps://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=778102#p778102

Keep in mind that I haven’t installed every driver for the system due to it extending the boot time for a while longer than it reasonably should. These include the Ethernet and the PCI system management bus, which in hindsight could be the cause of my problems.

*On a separate note I would like to know if DOSBox (the modern day emulator) works with Windows MIDI devices? I know it connects to external GM modules like the SC-55 and the MT-32. It would be insane if they had one for it but I really doubt it.

Edit: device manager tells me the MPU 401 is set up at 330f not 330h like you mentioned, I don’t see an option for a ‘h’ address

Work Rig - Ryzen 2700X, 16GB 3200Mhz, MSI B450 LN91340, HD 7970 Ghz (I know...), SB 1500
XP Rig - C2Q Q6600, 4GB 800Mhz, GA-P31-DS3L , GTX 750Ti, SB 0820
98SE Rig - AthlonXP 1700, 512MB 166Mhz, NForce A7N8X-X, V3 2000 PCI, Aureal Vortex 2 SQ2500

Reply 16 of 28, by darry

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bionicle_159 wrote on 2020-06-23, 16:14:
Keep in mind that I haven’t installed every driver for the system due to it extending the boot time for a while longer than it r […]
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darry wrote on 2020-06-23, 13:30:
It's not just that . There is a reason I asked you to run specific aforementioned tests. The fact that, under Windows, DOS softw […]
Show full quote
bionicle_159 wrote on 2020-06-23, 12:51:

It gives me IRQ and DMA options in the bios, only obstacle that I can see is knowing what settings to change

It's not just that . There is a reason I asked you to run specific aforementioned tests. The fact that, under Windows, DOS software that would normally just use port 388h (Adlib) or port 330h/300h (General MIDI over MPU-401) is a bad sign . Playing with IRQs and DMA options will not fix those, as they do not use any .

You may have better luck with other (newer or older) driver versions, but as others have mentioned, the Nforce2 is probably at the heart of the issue with essentially all audio chips with DOS support, not just the AU8830. AFAIK, there is no known workaround . Personally, I think it's time to give up on Nforce2 and DOS audio support.

See posts in these threads also.
NForce2 and DOS Sound question
hqttps://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=778102#p778102

Keep in mind that I haven’t installed every driver for the system due to it extending the boot time for a while longer than it reasonably should. These include the Ethernet and the PCI system management bus, which in hindsight could be the cause of my problems.

*On a separate note I would like to know if DOSBox (the modern day emulator) works with Windows MIDI devices? I know it connects to external GM modules like the SC-55 and the MT-32. It would be insane if they had one for it but I really doubt it.

Edit: device manager tells me the MPU 401 is set up at 330f not 330h like you mentioned, I don’t see an option for a ‘h’ address

The Ethernet driver definitely won't help. I doubt the SMBUS driver will change anything either .

The Windows version of DOSBOX (the DOS emulator) definitely works with MIDI devices under Windows, whether they are virtual (Munt, Coolsoft MIDI synth, etc) or physical (Windows supported MIDI interface connected to an SC-55 or MT-32, for example). I'm afraid that I don't understand what you mean by "It would be insane if they had one for it but I really doubt it."

The "h" is not part of the address as such, it is to indicate that it is in hexadecimal (base-16) notation as opposed to the decimal (base-10) notation that is used in everyday life . The fact that port addresses are hexadecimal is implicit in Windows Device Manager, so no "h" is shown . Most game setup programs will append an "h" to hexadecimal port addresses when they display them, this is not an issue. Letters from a to f are actually part of hexadecimal notation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexadecimal) . That being said, if the MPU-401 starting port address in Windows 98 SE device manager is 330f rather than 0330 , that is definitely not normal .

Reply 17 of 28, by bionicle_159

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darry wrote on 2020-06-23, 18:17:

The Ethernet driver definitely won't help. I doubt the SMBUS driver will change anything either .

The Windows version of DOSBOX (the DOS emulator) definitely works with MIDI devices under Windows, whether they are virtual (Munt, Coolsoft MIDI synth, etc) or physical (Windows supported MIDI interface connected to an SC-55 or MT-32, for example). I'm afraid that I don't understand what you mean by "It would be insane if they had one for it but I really doubt it."

The "h" is not part of the address as such, it is to indicate that it is in hexadecimal (base-16) notation as opposed to the decimal (base-10) notation that is used in everyday life . The fact that port addresses are hexadecimal is implicit in Windows Device Manager, so no "h" is shown . Most game setup programs will append an "h" to hexadecimal port addresses when they display them, this is not an issue. Letters from a to f are actually part of hexadecimal notation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexadecimal) . That being said, if the MPU-401 starting port address in Windows 98 SE device manager is 330f rather than 0330 , that is definitely not normal .

That makes a lot more sense now, I might’ve changed the address when troubleshooting before, but I’m not sure what difference it makes.

I’ve thought over the differences between my MX300 and LGR’s setup, he’s using a Diamond Monster variant which is laid out differently from what I’ve heard, either his card patches the wavetable through software to the address, or he’s using a daughter board solution - I doubt either but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Finally, in that comment I was alluding to the idea of there being a port of DOSBox for 98 as crazy and far-fetched, mainly because I didn’t think they would see any point developing a version for Windows that already comes with DOS 7. I did some research on the system requirements and turns out it’s not so crazy after all, with their wiki saying the minimum is Windows 9x. Does defeat the point of 98SE over ME, but I’ll take it if it means getting DOS games to actually recognise my hardware. I’ve got a Live card just like foil_fresh, but I much prefer the sound of the Aureal.

Work Rig - Ryzen 2700X, 16GB 3200Mhz, MSI B450 LN91340, HD 7970 Ghz (I know...), SB 1500
XP Rig - C2Q Q6600, 4GB 800Mhz, GA-P31-DS3L , GTX 750Ti, SB 0820
98SE Rig - AthlonXP 1700, 512MB 166Mhz, NForce A7N8X-X, V3 2000 PCI, Aureal Vortex 2 SQ2500

Reply 18 of 28, by darry

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bionicle_159 wrote on 2020-06-23, 19:00:
That makes a lot more sense now, I might’ve changed the address when troubleshooting before, but I’m not sure what difference it […]
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darry wrote on 2020-06-23, 18:17:

The Ethernet driver definitely won't help. I doubt the SMBUS driver will change anything either .

The Windows version of DOSBOX (the DOS emulator) definitely works with MIDI devices under Windows, whether they are virtual (Munt, Coolsoft MIDI synth, etc) or physical (Windows supported MIDI interface connected to an SC-55 or MT-32, for example). I'm afraid that I don't understand what you mean by "It would be insane if they had one for it but I really doubt it."

The "h" is not part of the address as such, it is to indicate that it is in hexadecimal (base-16) notation as opposed to the decimal (base-10) notation that is used in everyday life . The fact that port addresses are hexadecimal is implicit in Windows Device Manager, so no "h" is shown . Most game setup programs will append an "h" to hexadecimal port addresses when they display them, this is not an issue. Letters from a to f are actually part of hexadecimal notation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexadecimal) . That being said, if the MPU-401 starting port address in Windows 98 SE device manager is 330f rather than 0330 , that is definitely not normal .

That makes a lot more sense now, I might’ve changed the address when troubleshooting before, but I’m not sure what difference it makes.

I’ve thought over the differences between my MX300 and LGR’s setup, he’s using a Diamond Monster variant which is laid out differently from what I’ve heard, either his card patches the wavetable through software to the address, or he’s using a daughter board solution - I doubt either but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Finally, in that comment I was alluding to the idea of there being a port of DOSBox for 98 as crazy and far-fetched, mainly because I didn’t think they would see any point developing a version for Windows that already comes with DOS 7. I did some research on the system requirements and turns out it’s not so crazy after all, with their wiki saying the minimum is Windows 9x. Does defeat the point of 98SE over ME, but I’ll take it if it means getting DOS games to actually recognise my hardware. I’ve got a Live card just like foil_fresh, but I much prefer the sound of the Aureal.

For DOS programs, settings, such as port addresses of devices, as well as IRQs and DMA channels (when used), must match between the configuration of the hardware used and the configuration in the program that is used . DOS programs usually allows a choice from a limited range of settings that generally corresponds to what was possible on actual hardware . Using odd-ball addresses that an actual MPU-401 could not be configured to pretty much guarantees that setting the same address in a DOS program will not be possible . This concept is fundamental .

The main difference between LGR's setup and your's, as far as AU8830 functionality goes, is that he is not using an Nforce2 chipset board which, for some reason, you seem to discount as being inconsequential (at least that's the impression I get), while it is not .

As for using DOSBOX on Windows 98 SE and redirecting its MIDI output to the AU8830 synthesizer MIDI device under Windows, I see no reason why that would not work . My main concern would be the fact that performance of programs of software running under DOSBOX on a CPU of the vintage you have in your Windows 98 SE machine may not be satisfactory .

Last edited by darry on 2020-06-23, 20:14. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 19 of 28, by cyclone3d

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The nForce chipsets do not have what is required for PCI sound cards to work under pure DOS. The most you will usually get is FM because it doesn't require an IRQ or DMA.

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