VOGONS


Reply 20 of 47, by darry

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Thank you for this updated version .The SB Pro mixer options are great .

When using S/PDIF output, I have noticed that if SRS is enabled (regardless of center and space values and regardless of whether mode=sb or mode=wss), SB Pro wave audio stereo panning seems not to work properly in Duke Nukem 3D's setup.exe audio test . WSS stereo panning works fine in Open Cubic Player, for example. Is this a limitation of the CS4237B ?

Reply 21 of 47, by 640K!enough

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darry wrote on 2020-11-13, 01:40:

When using S/PDIF output, I have noticed that if SRS is enabled (regardless of center and space values and regardless of whether mode=sb or mode=wss), SB Pro wave audio stereo panning seems not to work properly in Duke Nukem 3D's setup.exe audio test . WSS stereo panning works fine in Open Cubic Player, for example. Is this a limitation of the CS4237B ?

This is not restricted to digital output, nor is it specific to the Sound Blaster emulation mode. Any time SRS is enabled in stereo mode, stereo positioning is affected in this way. That is part of the reason I was so insistent on offering the analogue mode; it is the only way I have found to get YMF289 sound via digital output without SRS. Because of the way it affects stereo positioning, I have come to rather dislike that "feature". The advantage of the current implementation is that if there is someone who does like it, they can configure it at will.

To really notice the difference, try Adlib Tracker II. Play a few of the modules in MODULES\ENCORE with and without SRS. Also, use Audacity (or similar) to generate a sine wave that alternates between left and right, with the other channel silent. Play it back in SB mode, then WSS mode, each with SRS disabled, and then enabled. For additional fun, vary the space and centre values. You'll notice that in every case, the channels are not clearly defined. Part of the SRS process involves taking specific portions of one channel and adding/subtracting it from the other or the combined signal (read the brief description of the process in the 4237B data sheet if interested). It has a pleasant effect with some material, but for the most part, I don't like or want such "enhancement", so it stays off.

Since you seem to have been in the right area, if you own an Audiotrix Pro with effect module, compare their DSP SRS implementation. Same basic effect?

Reply 22 of 47, by darry

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640K!enough wrote on 2020-11-13, 02:36:
This is not restricted to digital output, nor is it specific to the Sound Blaster emulation mode. Any time SRS is enabled in st […]
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darry wrote on 2020-11-13, 01:40:

When using S/PDIF output, I have noticed that if SRS is enabled (regardless of center and space values and regardless of whether mode=sb or mode=wss), SB Pro wave audio stereo panning seems not to work properly in Duke Nukem 3D's setup.exe audio test . WSS stereo panning works fine in Open Cubic Player, for example. Is this a limitation of the CS4237B ?

This is not restricted to digital output, nor is it specific to the Sound Blaster emulation mode. Any time SRS is enabled in stereo mode, stereo positioning is affected in this way. That is part of the reason I was so insistent on offering the analogue mode; it is the only way I have found to get YMF289 sound via digital output without SRS. Because of the way it affects stereo positioning, I have come to rather dislike that "feature". The advantage of the current implementation is that if there is someone who does like it, they can configure it at will.

To really notice the difference, try Adlib Tracker II. Play a few of the modules in MODULES\ENCORE with and without SRS. Also, use Audacity (or similar) to generate a sine wave that alternates between left and right, with the other channel silent. Play it back in SB mode, then WSS mode, each with SRS disabled, and then enabled. For additional fun, vary the space and centre values. You'll notice that in every case, the channels are not clearly defined. Part of the SRS process involves taking specific portions of one channel and adding/subtracting it from the other or the combined signal (read the brief description of the process in the 4237B data sheet if interested). It has a pleasant effect with some material, but for the most part, I don't like or want such "enhancement", so it stays off.

Since you seem to have been in the right area, if you own an Audiotrix Pro with effect module, compare their DSP SRS implementation. Same basic effect?

Thank you once again for the explanation. I guess the effect is most noticeable, in an unpleasant way, in Duke Nukem 3D's hard panned stereo tests . Almost all of my WSS and SB Pro tests so far were using a 1KHz sine wave with identical left and right channels, so I had not noticed the SRS effect . I am due for some better listening tests, including those that you suggested .

I wish I did own an Audiotrix Pro or 2 or 20. In 1998-ish, when Aventure Electronique stores were being liquidated, my closest location had dozens or more of them at crazy low prices (20$ each or so, AFAICR). I could have bought a truckload for peanuts, sat on them for 20-odd years and slowly started releasing them for sale for almost pure profit, 🤣 . I do have the Audiotrix Pro Demo CD, though, but that has no SRS examples, AFAICR .

Reply 23 of 47, by 640K!enough

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darry wrote on 2020-11-13, 03:00:

In 1998-ish, when Aventure Electronique stores were being liquidated, my closest location had dozens or more of them at crazy low prices (20$ each or so, AFAICR).

You have to be absolutely kidding! I stopped by the local store just days before it closed for good. Some stuff had sold, but it still seemed rather full for a location that was days away from lights-out. There was a lone Audiotrix Pro in the glass display. The price? Still $349! For anywhere around $100 or less, I would have snatched it, but I just couldn't justify full MSRP without any of the expansion modules, and at a liquidation sale, no less. They probably weren't even being made any more! This would have been a year or more after the introduction of the 3D-XG.

They made a fairly big deal about being the only company to have delivered SRS enhancement via a general-purpose programmable DSP at the time. I think that came after they recorded the demo CD. In fact, from my memory of it, some of the demo tracks seemed to have been recorded with the pre-Fat-Certification firmware. There were some big differences between some of those and the tracks that they used to have on the Web site. Unfortunately, I "lent" that CD to someone and never saw it again.

Reply 24 of 47, by darry

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640K!enough wrote on 2020-11-13, 05:11:
darry wrote on 2020-11-13, 03:00:

In 1998-ish, when Aventure Electronique stores were being liquidated, my closest location had dozens or more of them at crazy low prices (20$ each or so, AFAICR).

You have to be absolutely kidding! I stopped by the local store just days before it closed for good. Some stuff had sold, but it still seemed rather full for a location that was days away from lights-out. There was a lone Audiotrix Pro in the glass display. The price? Still $349! For anywhere around $100 or less, I would have snatched it, but I just couldn't justify full MSRP without any of the expansion modules, and at a liquidation sale, no less. They probably weren't even being made any more! This would have been a year or more after the introduction of the 3D-XG.

They made a fairly big deal about being the only company to have delivered SRS enhancement via a general-purpose programmable DSP at the time. I think that came after they recorded the demo CD. In fact, from my memory of it, some of the demo tracks seemed to have been recorded with the pre-Fat-Certification firmware. There were some big differences between some of those and the tracks that they used to have on the Web site. Unfortunately, I "lent" that CD to someone and never saw it again.

I kid you not . The boxes were on customer accessible shelves . I held one in my hands while I was considering buying it . My local store was on Montreal's south shore in the town of Brossard, or nearby AFAICR . I can't remember what the pre-liquidation price was ar my location, but having that many units of something so expensive seems odd . Maybe the liquidator jacked up prices to MSRP before applying rebate at your location. I have seen that happen at other liquidations .

Not crazy about SRS now that I have tried it . I pretty much ignored it back then . I do remember external SRS processors being a thing at Radio Shack, though .

Reply 25 of 47, by doogie

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Version 0.52ß is working wonderfully on my Asus P5A/AMD K6-III+ system, with Windows 98SE installed (DOS mode, of course). I make heavy use of gerwin's SetMul utility as well to slow the machine down, and it does not introduce any problems. Many thanks for this software.

Reply 26 of 47, by 640K!enough

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doogie wrote on 2020-12-03, 01:20:

Version 0.52ß is working wonderfully on my Asus P5A/AMD K6-III+ system, with Windows 98SE installed (DOS mode, of course). I make heavy use of gerwin's SetMul utility as well to slow the machine down, and it does not introduce any problems. Many thanks for this software.

Thanks for the feedback. It's always nice to hear about configurations on which it does work, in addition to the problematic ones. The P5A has an ALi chipset, does it not?

For anyone who wants to report problems, please include the following:

  1. A description of the problem, including the software/game that's causing the problem(s).
  2. Your operating system and version.
  3. [Optional] A copy of CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT.
  4. The INI file(s) used with ORPHINIT.
  5. ORPHINIT output, with at least the /v option (/vv is even better).
  6. If you have compared against CWDINIT or UNISOUND, a description of what works better/worse with those.
  7. Your DOS environment variables (SET<Enter> at the command prompt).

Reply 27 of 47, by doogie

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640K!enough wrote on 2020-12-03, 13:47:

The P5A has an ALi chipset, does it not?

Indeed - ALi Aladdin V, and rev E to be precise on my board.

Full system specs:
AMD K6-III+ 450 ACZ (at stock speed 4.5x100)
Asus P5A 1.03 (1011 Beta 5 BIOS)
3x128MB Micron PC133 CL2
3dfx Voodoo3 3000 AGP
Orpheus I Sound Card
Intel PRO/1000 GT

The only storage in this machine is a 128GB SSD, and games are copied to it over the network.

Reply 28 of 47, by quovadis11

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I have a question. What are the MAX and MIN values of WSSBase and CtrlBase in ORPHEUS.INI file?
The RUBY-9719VG2AR motherboard that I am using has a limited range of addresses that can be forwarded to the ISA slot, so only 2xx, 3xx, and Axx areas can be forwarded by Tiido's RUBYISA utility. I am wondering if WSSBase and CtrlBase values can be adjusted in the range of 2xx, 3xx, and Axx.

Reply 29 of 47, by Tiido

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They should be placeable in almost anywhere you want, most PnP resources have no limits to where they're placed.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 30 of 47, by 640K!enough

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quovadis11 wrote on 2020-12-18, 07:33:

I have a question. What are the MAX and MIN values of WSSBase and CtrlBase in ORPHEUS.INI file?

On the software side, there are no limitations. ORPHINIT will try to read whatever you put there, interpret it as a 16-bit hexadecimal value and assign that to the card. I intend to add more robust checks and error handling, but all valid I/O addresses will still be usable.

Marmes or keropi will have to confirm, but I think they implemented full 16-bit address decoding in the current version of the board, so there shouldn't be any restrictions there, either.

quovadis11 wrote on 2020-12-18, 07:33:

The RUBY-9719VG2AR motherboard that I am using has a limited range of addresses that can be forwarded to the ISA slot, so only 2xx, 3xx, and Axx areas can be forwarded by Tiido's RUBYISA utility. I am wondering if WSSBase and CtrlBase values can be adjusted in the range of 2xx, 3xx, and Axx.

The WSSBase and CtrlBase settings can accept values in the ranges that you mentioned. I have just been testing with WSSBase=a34 and CtrlBase=a38, and everything works as expected. The only things that may not be obvious are that you may want to avoid addresses near 200-20FH, 279 and A79; these are used for the game port (if enabled), as well as for ISA Plug and Play resource assignment, and things will break if you use those.

Also, some software will have trouble finding the card if it's not at one of the usual WSS addresses. In such cases, you may be forced to use one of the Sound Blaster modes instead.

Last edited by 640K!enough on 2021-02-12, 14:46. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 32 of 47, by Arvid

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I have a problem with orphinit on my Olivetti M4 454S system (486 DX2 66). When running orphinit it does seemingly nothing, if running with the /VV switch it will output what is shown in the attached picture. In both cases the cursor blinks but the computer is unresponsive to anything but a ctrl+alt+del. This was tested with the standard orphinit.ini file.

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Reply 33 of 47, by 640K!enough

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Arvid wrote on 2021-02-09, 21:47:

I have a problem with orphinit on my Olivetti M4 454S system (486 DX2 66). When running orphinit it does seemingly nothing, if running with the /VV switch it will output what is shown in the attached picture. In both cases the cursor blinks but the computer is unresponsive to anything but a ctrl+alt+del. This was tested with the standard orphinit.ini file.

I saw your original post in the Orpheus thread a few days ago, but haven't had the chance to respond before now. This odd case exposed a design oversight that I will have to correct, so thanks for reporting it. Now there is the matter of figuring out the most appropriate way to work around the problem. I understand that you've had better results with UNISOUND, but would you be willing to provide a little more detail about what is going on here? If so, the first step would be to try using the original Crystal CWDINIT as a test. If you don't have it as part of the Windows 3.1 driver package, you can get it at the official Orpheus Web site. Edit CWDAUDIO.INI according to your desired configuration, then run:

CWDINIT /o /v > OUTPUT.TXT

Then post that output here (either copy and paste or attach the file). I have a few ideas already, but that output will be helpful.

Also, are you loading any Plug and Play TSRs (such as Intel ISU or Creative's tools), by chance? I was planning to have a minor update ready some time next week, so the timing is somewhat convenient.

Reply 34 of 47, by Arvid

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Here is the output from CWDINIT like you instructed:

----------------------------------------------------------

CrystalWare(tm) Audio Initialization Utility, Version 2.841x
Copyright(c) 1997 Crystal Semiconductor Corp. All Rights Reserved.

* Testing for SIS IOCHRDY chipset.
* Found C:\TEMP\CWDAUDIO.ini.
* Making sure Crystal chip is in wait for key state.
* Plug N Play BIOS Detected.
* Override Plug N Play Configuration.
* Sending Key
WSS: I/O = 534, IRQ = 5, DMA0 = 1, DMA1 = 0.
OPL3: I/O = 388, IRQ = Disabled.
SBpro: I/O = 220.
Joystick: I/O = 200.
Control: I/O = 538, IRQ = Disabled.
Logical device 3 (MPU-401) disabled.
Logical device 4 disabled.
Logical device 5 disabled.
* Card is Configured.
* Modifying blaster environment variable.
* Loading Minicode
* Downloading Firmware Code, Version 17.
* Both Crystals and DMA timing on.
* Staying Resident.

--------------------------------------------------------

I do not have any PNP TSR´s loaded. I see that CDWINIT detects a PNP BIOS, I would have thought that this BIOS was not PNP but perhaps it is? There´s nothing to suggest it is in the BIOS settings as far as I can tell.

Also in the screenshot i posted earlier it says "120 ISA Plug and Play card(s) detected". Does that mean that Orphinit thinks there´s 120 PNP cards in my system? 🤣

Reply 35 of 47, by 640K!enough

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Arvid wrote on 2021-02-11, 16:42:

I do not have any PNP TSR´s loaded. I see that CDWINIT detects a PNP BIOS, I would have thought that this BIOS was not PNP but perhaps it is? There´s nothing to suggest it is in the BIOS settings as far as I can tell.

Also in the screenshot i posted earlier it says "120 ISA Plug and Play card(s) detected". Does that mean that Orphinit thinks there´s 120 PNP cards in my system? 🤣

Thanks for the additional information. That was the suspicion that I started with. Yes, ORPHINIT does indeed think that the BIOS is reporting that there are 120 PnP ISA devices in the system, which is utterly nonsensical. Furthermore, the PnP read address is well out of the standard range, and many cards don't even support such an address. Even if an early-generation/non-compliant or buggy BIOS implementation were to try using it, it just wouldn't work.

This is the problem: in scanning the standard memory space, the PnP BIOS signature is present and the checksum is valid, which should indicate Plug and Play support. However, upon reading the content of the structure, it is not at all valid, according to any standard that I know. The Crystal software seems to think there is PnP BIOS support too, but it doesn't reveal what read port it found, nor can we verify that it uses what it finds.

This has me curious about your machine. Would you be willing to use the tool and instructions posted by JazeFox here and attach the report? It might give a few more clues about your machine's alleged PnP support.

Reply 37 of 47, by keropi

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hey 120x Orpheus cards totally works and gives surreal mind+roof blowing surround 120:1^2 , what do you mean "it's an error" ?
🤣 🤣 🤣

can't wait to see what the new update brings! 😀

🎵 PCMIDI mpu site buy+info
🎧 WIP Orpheus soundcard site
💻 WTB Amstrad PC7486SLC-33 system

Reply 38 of 47, by 640K!enough

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Arvid wrote on 2021-02-11, 18:41:

Here is the complete dump after running the tool.

Thanks, that was quite helpful. I found (and hopefully fixed) one bug, but that may not be the end of the problems with your machine, so I hope you're not getting too fed up with me just yet. Please try the attached version (just replace the current executable), issuing the command:

ORPHINIT /vd

If it stops responding again, please post a photo of the output that you do get, as you did last time. If it gives you a DOS prompt at the end, please try re-directing the output to a file again, and posting that, as the debug version produces more than one screen worth of output (at least it does when it works).

keropi wrote on 2021-02-11, 19:17:

hey 120x Orpheus cards totally works and gives surreal mind+roof blowing surround 120:1^2 , what do you mean "it's an error" ?
🤣 🤣 🤣

I think you'll run out of room (and electricity) long before you can install that many bus expanders and cards. 😉

EDIT: Attachment no longer needed; removed.

Last edited by 640K!enough on 2021-02-15, 03:54. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 39 of 47, by Arvid

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It did not hang this time but it seems it was not completely successfull either. I´m attaching the output.txt for you to look at 😀

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    output.txt
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